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CRUEL Flogging (i.e. Whipping)

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  • Fatum's Avatar
    34,549 posts since Aug '05

    • methinks castration is the best punishment for rapists ....

      these people shouldn't be allowed to breed anyways ! ... Mad

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
      How naive can you be? They are not as innocent as you think. Someone who does not ask to inspect the work permits is passively allowing illegal workers.

      The law has achieved its purpose. Jail does not scare anyone but the threat of caning has greatly reduced the incidence of such cases. Making Singaporeans obey the law is not entrapment..it's the duty of all citizens.

      For one who dare to make claims to the credentials that you have made so publicly, and displaying a propensity to be dependent on the Bible for debating points, ironically you have a hypocritical paucity in humanity and generosity towards the common folks - let alone any form of decency with your position taken in this forum that reflect your willingness even to conquer someone else's wife. ( I was tempted to make a reply to your post on this matter that appeared in a separate thread, but let the opportunity go due to lack of time, and also the long interval from the time you posted it and the date when I spotted it).

      In the light of your hypocritical values, can we believe your declared credentials, the values of your statement, your Bible quoting parables, and your judgment of fellow Singaporeans ?

      Should the uneducated Singaporeans, or the Aged, or the harassed single mother - all home owners - be held responsible if they place their trust in the professionalism of accredited Housing Agent - to ensure that the Law is fulfilled when renting out rooms to foreigners ?

      It is as much the responsibility of the Singapore Government and its Agency to root out the illegal stayers in Singapore, as it is that of the Citizen.

      Punishing or the threat of punishing Citizens to ensure that illegal stayers have no place to go, will only make these illegals stayers to be more creative and find more astute ways to cheat the system.

      Using threats of judicial caning that degrade the ordinary citizen to the same level as rapist and hard core criminal is merely an easy way out for the Government.

      Can a Singapore Society be made to be Civil when the Government use a barbaric methods to ensure that the law is complied with ?

  • oxford mushroom's Avatar
    4,923 posts since Mar '05
    • Here comes the mindless critic of everything the government does...for a while I thought you lost your voice from your incessant ranting Mr. Green Get to the issue instead of personal attacks...I am immune to your vitriol, so don't waste your breath polluting the atmosphere with your hot air. The earth is warm enough as it is Laughing

      It is not the uneducated housewife who harbors illegal workers but rather those who are out to earn a quick buck. In any case, this is no longer a problem, precisely because our strict laws have put an end to it.

      The ends justify the means. Liberal western attitudes with regard to crime has resulted in spiraling crime rates, convicted pedophiles freed and kids murdering kids on the street. There is no doubt that caning is a stronger deterrent than a jail sentence. It should therefore be used more often and jail terms can be cut shorter as a result.

  • red_amoeba's Avatar
    1,406 posts since Jul '06
  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
      Here comes the mindless critic of everything the government does...for a while I thought you lost your voice from your incessant ranting Mr. Green Get to the issue instead of personal attacks...I am immune to your vitriol, so don't waste your breath polluting the atmosphere with your hot air. The earth is warm enough as it is Laughing

      It is not the uneducated housewife who harbors illegal workers but rather those who are out to earn a quick buck. In any case, this is no longer a problem, precisely because our strict laws have put an end to it.

      The ends justify the means. Liberal western attitudes with regard to crime has resulted in spiraling crime rates, convicted pedophiles freed and kids murdering kids on the street. There is no doubt that caning is a stronger deterrent than a jail sentence. It should therefore be used more often and jail terms can be cut shorter as a result.

      Is there any difference in your personal attack with your remark to my piece as "naive", when comparing it to my response in questioning your values that consistently reflect the hypocritical contradictions of your positions taken ?

      "Mindless critic of everything the government does.... " ?

      At least my approach has been more consistent compared to your flip-flop hypocritical stance and values - that more often then not shows your ever ready willingness to bend your own declared position of not always agreeing with the Government.


      "for a while I thought you lost your voice from your incessant ranting" - for one who claim to PhD qualifications in medicine, you seem to be wasting alot of energy with your useless views that serves merely to irk other participants in this forum, rather then making any useful or informative qualification.

      Can we believe that you will be in any position to provide any serious attention to those needing medical attention from you, after spending so much time and energy every night here ?

      Can we accept your views about the environment and concern with the 'hot air' and that the earth is warm enough ?

      Can you appreciate how much "heat" is produced with each stroke of the cane towards a Citizen made into CRIMINAL, and the environmental effects when the earth is further denuded of the plants to provide sufficient material for the Judicial Caning Process ?

      Will the rich living in the High Value Apartments in the Orchard Road, Holland Road, and Bukit Timah Districts be renting out their rooms to those foreign workers who try to avoid the Law ?

      Or will it more likely to be the helpless cash-strap heartlanders in the HDB 3 and 4 room flats that are more likely to lease out their rooms ?

      It will be more likely the lower income - cash strapped - Singaporeans, who will not use lawyers to make out lease contracts, but will depend entirely on the " professionalism " of the Housing Agents - some of whom are known to be unscrupulouse with their tenancy arrangements.

      These are the ORDINARY Singaporeans from the lower end of society, who will more likely to be LESS INFORMED and run foul of the law - and will suffer the consequences of being criminalized and subjected to an inhumane punishment that is more justifiably applicable to HARDCORE Criminals.

      It will be more likely to be the lower end foreign workers taking up lease in the "heartlands of Singapore" rather then mingle with the High Value Properties.

      The ills of the Western Society is largely due to many factors that even the Sociologist and Social Workers of Western Societies are still debating - your sweeping statements reflect your typical shallowness and are not helpful, but simply bias, prejudiced - bordering towards racism.

      The
      "ends justify the means" - has always been the attitude of those too lazy to work towards a meaningful end, and intolerant at the pace of events to reach one's own ambitious ends.

      LKY's boastful claim of the "ends justify the means" has created many different crisis of immense proportions for Singapore - some of which include the shrinking growth to Singapore population, the atrophied national initiative and enterprise, the chaffing Malaysia-Singapore relationship; and the future is even dimmer with the institutionalisation of a Single Ruling Party in Singapore Politics, a non-independent but highly politicised Civil Service, as well as the national assets being held by Government Owned Companies that are all politicised by political appointments from the Ruling Party.

      All of which should become a serious concern for Singaporeans, when LKY is willing to sacrifice Singapore stability by calling for the SAF to stage a Military Coup IF in any future event that an ALTERNATIVE POLITICAL PARTY should be elected to form the next Government.

      Adolf Hitler also depended on "the ends justifying the means" to reach his goals, as did Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin - all their ambitious schemes ended in dust.

      If only the likes of you had been more careful with similar thoughts.

      Edited by Atobe 27 Jan `07, 2:19PM
  • PRP's Avatar
    2,065 posts since Feb '04
    • Originally posted by socrates:
      Just to add, caning is particularly useful in the case of people that already have nothing by being jailed. They have lived their whole life in a jail and giving them another jail sentence fail to give a deterence effect. For example, a person on life imprisonment beats up the police in the jail. The only way of punishing them is either caning or confine in a dark room for a period of time.

      Your honour,u have a point.I beleive the prison authority should reform such kind of ppl while they are in prison.Don't let them do and learn nothing while they are in it.

    • Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
      Cruel? No, it's tough justice.

      Criminals are not afraid of a lengthy jail sentence nowadays. Rather than making society pay to keep them in prison, there might be greater deterrence shortening the jail sentence and increasing the number of strokes.

      Do u want to have caning if u commit a sin?

  • oxford mushroom's Avatar
    4,923 posts since Mar '05
    • Originally posted by PRP:
      Do u want to have caning if u commit a sin?

      Do u want to be punished at all if u commit a crime? Mr. Green Mr. Green

  • Kuali Baba's Avatar
    24,120 posts since Nov '03
    • Why don't we just go the whole horde and institute the death penalty for every offence, like Draco did? Rolling Eyes

  • SingaporeTyrannosaur's Avatar
    6,889 posts since Jan '03
    • Come to think of it, going by OM's rather narrow logic... putting the ultimate penalty (ala. death) for any crime will be the best way to make people toe the line and respect the law.

  • oxford mushroom's Avatar
    4,923 posts since Mar '05
    • Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
      Come to think of it, going by OM's rather narrow logic... putting the ultimate penalty (ala. death) for any crime will be the best way to make people toe the line and respect the law.

      That's your logic, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.

      Parliament decides on the appropriate sentence for each crime and the courts must ensure that the right sentence is meted out for a particular crime. Caning is a very effective and at times a better deterrent than jail time. It only makes sense that it should be used more frequently to deter crime.

  • SingaporeTyrannosaur's Avatar
    6,889 posts since Jan '03
    • Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
      That's your logic, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.

      Parliament decides on the appropriate sentence for each crime and the courts must ensure that the right sentence is meted out for a particular crime. Caning is a very effective and at times a better deterrent than jail time. It only makes sense that it should be used more frequently to deter crime.

      Who's putting words into your mouth? You're skirting the questions your own logic rises.

      Unless you want to hide behind the apron strings of "parliament decides", I suggest you start to actually defend your position. Otherwise you will be summarily laughed at, dismissed and your position otherwise ignored.

      Caning is certainly an effective deterrent, the main question is on if it is a MORAL deterrent. By all indications you seem to think it so from what you have said it so far. Since the deterrent of crime seems to be of the highest priority to you… what then stops anybody from carrying your point to its logical conclusion to estate the death penalty as the punishment for any crime? Would it not be the ultimate deterrence? As you said would it not make sense?

      Where then do you draw the line? I am interested to know... or are you going to present, after your exhaustive education at Oxford (which is becoming increasingly suspect given the logical cohorence of your posts here) the rather banal answers which usually distill down to "parliament-decides-i-throw-in-some-hastily-constructed-justification-and-that-is-my-position" which has more or less come to mark your less then stellar reputation here?

    • The good thing about having OM around however, is that he does present the true absurdity of his position here in full light for everyone to see. While one can only speculate at the true motive as to why he takes the positions he takes and attempts to provoke with his pseudo-intellectualism… could it be the want of attention? simply to troll? to gain some form of affirmation for inadequacies in his real person that he could only find in the anonymity of the net? Whatever that case he does make it rather clear to many other people what they do NOT want to be like, nor even start to think like.

      In a back-handed sort of way, one must say that OM has actually improved the positions of his foes, made their logic more astute, and perhaps is more or less helping the very people in the direction (assuming he is even genuine about the position he presents here) that he is trying valiantly to “save” them from. One can only marvel at the astounding dearth of good sense in such an individual that renders this possible.

      In any case, I would like to present (at the risk of going off topic), perhaps in some rather dramatic terms, why we should not follow OM’s suggestions of the way we ought to be, so here is a speech:

      I wish to testify about the Feldenstein case because it was the most significant trial of the period. It is important not only for the tribunal to understand it, but for the whole German people. But in order to understand it, one must understand the period in which it happened. There was a fever over the land, a fever of disgrace, of indignity, of hunger.

      We had a democracy, yes, but it was torn by elements within. Above all there was fear, fear of today, fear of tomorrow, fear of our neighbors, and fear of ourselves. Only when you understand that can you understand what Hitler meant to us, because he said to us: "Lift your heads. Be proud to be German. There are devils among us, communists, liberals, Jews, gypsies. Once these devils will be destroyed your misery will be destroyed." It was the old, old story of the sacrificial lamb.

      What about those of us who knew better -- we who knew the words were lies...? Why did we sit silent? Why did we take part? Because we loved our country. What difference does it make if a few political extremists lose their rights? What difference does it make if a few racial minorities lose their rights? It is only a passing phase. It is only a stage we are going through. It will be discarded sooner or later. Hitler himself will be discarded -- sooner or later. The country is in danger. We will march out of the shadows! We will go forward. Forward is the great password.

      And history tells how well we succeeded, Your Honor. We succeeded beyond out wildest dreams. The very elements about hate and power about Hitler that mesmerized Germany mesmerized the world. We found ourselves with sudden powerful allies. Things that had been denied to us as a democracy were open to us now. The world said, "Go ahead. Take it. Take it! Take Sudetenland! Take the Rhineland! Re-militarize it! Take all of Austria! Take it!" And then, one day we looked around and found that we were in an even more terrible danger. The ritual began in this courtroom, swept over the land like a raging, roaring disease. What was going to be a passing phase had become the way of life.

      Your Honor, I was content to sit silent during this trial. I was content to tend my roses. I was even content to let council try to save my name, until I realized that in order to save it, he would have to raise the specter again. You have seen him do it. He has done it, here, in this courtroom. He has suggested that the Third Reich worked for the benefit of people. He has suggested that we sterilized men for the welfare of the country. He has suggested that perhaps the old Jew did not sleep with the 16 year old girl after all. Once more, it is being done -- for love of country. It is not easy to tell the truth. But if there is to be any salvation for Germany, we who know our guilt must admit it -- whatever the pain and humiliation.

      I had reached my verdict on the Feldenstein case before I ever came into the courtroom. I would have found him guilty, whatever the evidence. It was not a trial at all. It was a sacrificial ritual in which Feldenstein, the Jew, was the helpless victim. My council would have you believe we were not aware of the concentration camps. Not aware. Where were we? Where were we when Hitler began shrieking his hate in Reichstag? Where were we when our neighbors were being dragged out in the middle of the night to Dachau!?! Where were we when every village in Germany has a railroad terminal where…where cattle cars were filled with children being carried out to their extermination! Where were we when they cried out in the night to us!

      My council says we were not aware of the extermination of the millions. He would give you the excuse: We were only aware of the extermination of the hundreds. Does that make us any the less guilty? Maybe we didn't know the details. But if we didn't know, it was because we didn't want to know.

      I am going to tell them the truth. I am going to tell them the truth if the whole world conspires against it. I am going to tell them the truth about their Ministry of Justice. Werner Lammpe, an old man who cries into his Bible now, an old man who profited by the property expropriation of every man he sent to a concentration camp. Friedrich Hofstetter, the "good German" who knew how to take orders, who sent men before him to be sterilized like so many digits. Emil Hahn, the decayed, corrupt bigot, obsessed by the evil within himself. Ernst Jannings, worse than any of them because he knew what they were, and he went along with them. Ernst Jannings: Who made his life excrement, because he walked with them.

      Edited by SingaporeTyrannosaur 28 Jan `07, 5:49AM
  • bangkokboy's Avatar
    707 posts since Aug '06
    • Hi guys, I may not always agree with Oxford Mushroom, but sometimes you must admit deterant punishments are good as they make people think twice, thrice or even millions of times.

      However I agree that all rapist should be caned. If possible, cane harder...

  • wonderamazement's Avatar
    15,229 posts since Dec '04
    • Raping a girl already left a psychological and emotional scar on her… It’s fair enough to leave “scars” both pyhsically & mentally on the rapist

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by oxford mushroom:

      That's your logic, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.

      Parliament decides on the appropriate sentence for each crime and the courts must ensure that the right sentence is meted out for a particular crime. Caning is a very effective and at times a better deterrent than jail time. It only makes sense that it should be used more frequently to deter crime.

      The Ruling Party controlling the Singapore Parliament for the last 45 years of Singapore's history, has taken the easy way out by slamming Singapore's social problems with a gigantic sledge hammer.

      Every petty crime is slammed with the harhest of punishment - petty vandalism will require a minimum SIX strokes of the cane.

      Six strokes of the cane are about the same amount given for armed robbery.

      There is no differentiation if the offender who committed vandalism is due to some psychological dysfunction.

      Has social problems been eradicated with all the harsh laws imposed ?

      The amount of petty crime persist, vandalism continue, armed robbery exist - and despite the ultimate punishment of death by hanging, a spate of murder hit the headlines month after month in 2006.

      Even the previous Chief Justice lamented that the Judiciary is left without any room to mete out a less punishment when he knows that the punishment is excessive for the crime committed.

      If one is to look at the National Budget, the amount spent to support the social fabric of Singapore is negligible.

      "Civil Society with an appreciation of fine arts" remains but a slogan, as this Ruling Party maybe good at the mechanics of infrastructural "hardware" development, but have shown themselves to be poor "software" or "heartware" developers.

      They have no clue as to how to bring Singapore forward and develop it into a TRULY REFINED FIRST WORLD SOCIETY.

      It is those without the capacity to think, nor the tolerance to seek out the cure to social ills that will depend on violent methods to tweak social behavior.

      And you claim to be a Doctor in Medicine, a PhD holder from Oxford ?

      You must be a joke to your profession and your alma mater.


      Edited by Atobe 28 Jan `07, 4:08PM

    • Bravo, ST - that was a good follow-on piece that you have written about Adolf Hitler and OM.

      Both believed in the "ends justify the means" to reach their goal.

      So does LKY, and we have what we have in Singapore today.

      A climate of caution and fear not to step out of line.


      Edited by Atobe 28 Jan `07, 4:05PM
  • norm's Avatar
    1,017 posts since Jan '07
    • Originally posted by Fatum:
      methinks castration is the best punishment for rapists ....

      these people shouldn't be allowed to breed anyways ! ... Mad

      high uncontrollable sex drive is genetic

  • (human)'s Avatar
    1,134 posts since Jun '06
    • Mankind censure injustice, fearing that they may be the victims of it and not because they shrink from committing it. It is as expedient that a wicked man be punished as that a sick man be cured by a physician; for all chastisement is a kind of medicine.

      In politics we presume that everyone who knows how to get votes knows how to administer a city or a state. When we are ill, we do not ask for the handsomest physician, or the most eloquent one.

  • TYING's Avatar
    2,589 posts since Nov '06
    • Originally posted by red_amoeba:
      any particular reasons why women are not caned in Singapore? Medical reasons?

      because if want to cane woman, have to find a female caner. And female caner have lesser strength than the male caner, so it does not leave as much impact. Hence, due to the trouble that takes to cane a female, its decided to just abolish it. Laughing ( tts what i think)

      I heard that its because if cane too hard, you will damage the female reproductive system and cause them to become infertile. ( quite true and not i make up one)

  • PRP's Avatar
    2,065 posts since Feb '04
    • Originally posted by PRP:
      Do u want to have caning if u commit a sin?

      OM can't answer the question.Just answer yes or no, OM.

    • Originally posted by Nelstar:
      The British are the most famous for flogging their own soldiers. Fifty is considered small number during the Napolean War.

      Cruel necessity, inhumane punishment.

      Your call.

      Laughing Laughing Laughing

      That was long ago.Now Bristish doesn't have such punishment but we still have.

    • The judges are not entirely to be blamed.They just carry out the law.The PAP govt is responsibled for supporting the cruel punishment.

  • Hogzilla's Avatar
    2,827 posts since Oct '06
    • Originally posted by PRP:
      I don't think rape is the most evil crime.Anyway,i just use the case to show that our judges mete out flogging excessively.

      SMLJ?? If rape is not the worst, what is? I think rape is worse than murder lor.

      In murder, the murderer killed that person and the victim will not come back to life. No emotional scar on the victim, only scars on the victim's family; In rape, the rapist rape the person but the poor fellow (I use the unisex word because a male can also kenna rape) is still alive and live by the scar. The victim's family is also tramustised. (I know wrong spelling, I'm just too lazy to check the correct one)

      So, which one is worse?

      Originally posted by (human):
      If the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no sense of
      shame.

      Ahh~~

      Analects by Confucius. Forgot which chapter liao, sorry.

      Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
      Haven't you heard about Michael Fay?

      Of course I heard of him lah. But that was in the 1990s. Did the law changed to the point that those who commit vandalism does not need to go under the cane?

  • socrates's Avatar
    188 posts since Oct '03
    • Well, is it possible to point out who has been caned because they had rent a room out to undesirables ? Is it possible to point out if thee is anyone that got caning because they have made the wrong paperwork regarding foreign workers ? It is because the website from wiki

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_caning

      shows that

      Repeat offenders: six to twelve strokes

      Illegal entry into Singapore: At least three strokes

      Unlawful overstay in Singapore for over ninety days: At least three strokes

      Unlawful possession or conveyance of any arms or ammunition: At least six strokes

      Offences relating to scheduled weapons: At least six strokes

      Trafficking in arms: At least six strokes

      Exhibiting imitation arms when committing scheduled offence: At least three strokes

      Outrage of modesty

      Sodomy or gross indecency between males

      Rape: At least twelve strokes for male offenders

      Carrying, etc., offensive weapons, explosive, corrosive or inflammable substances in a proclaimed area

      Vandalism: three to eight strokes

      Piracy (robbery committed at sea): At least twelve strokes (Note: The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material is, legally, not piracy but infringement of the relevant intellectual property right)

      Hijacking

      Rioting

      Attempt to murder

      Voluntarily causing grievous hurt

      Assault or use of criminal force to a person with intent to outrage modesty

      Assault or criminal force in committing or attempting to commit theft of property carried by a person

      Theft after preparation made for causing death or hurt in order to commit theft: At least three strokes

      Extortion

      Robbery: At least six strokes. If committed after 7 p.m. and before 7 a.m: At least twelve strokes

      Robbery when armed or with attempt to cause death or grievous hurt: At least twelve strokes

      Attempt to commit robbery: At least six strokes

      Voluntarily causing hurt in committing robbery: At least twelve strokes

      Gang-robbery: At least twelve strokes

      Belonging to gang-robbers: At least six strokes

      Dealing with explosives

      Dealing with dangerous fireworks for subsequent offence: Up to six strokes
      Using a corrosive or explosive substance or offensive weapon: At least six strokes


      I believe the issue is that innocent singaporean who had commit minor offences are given caning. To my knowledge it is not true. Most of the cases such as robbery, gang robbery, pirates (not selling vcd but works in the sea) firearms, raping and sodomy etc are given caning. Illegal immigrants now also faces caning as well as vandalism. If you ask me, I believe I do support illegal immigrants to be caned in order to deter them from repeatedly coming over. For vandalism, if the person is really an unsound mental patient he can seek mitigation. And it is effective in a way that there are not much vandalism.

      Edited by socrates 29 Jan `07, 4:54PM
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