there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by deathmaster @ Thu, 15 May 2008 13:21:33 +0800

deathmaster — Thu, 15 May 2008 13:21:33 +0800

always have this idea.

why not start your own business, employing ONLY FTs and FL (foreign laborer).

can cut cost, raise revenue, by making $$$ off the back of these people.

to make even more money, repeat this business model many times over. sooner or later, the politicians will get the msg that having too much FTs is not good for the economy.

then only will they start to impose stricter guidelines on immigration. so far, the government is only adept at hindering the growth of SMEs. given the highly profitable nature of the above business model, they will confirm do smth about it, to stop you from getting rich.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 12:10:08 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 12:10:08 +0800

Originally posted by redDUST:

i have mentioned previously that singapore society overall is not mature, or have not kept up with its material acquisition or progress over the years.

in US, diners use trays when they eat in the foodcourts and clear the table in a clean condition so the next diner can enjoy their meal. the cleaners there are to provide cover if someone misses a spot. here, we are all more keen to see who can leave a bigger mess on the table everytime we eat outside; whether in hawker centres or foodcourts. and i have noticed how some are (eved) rude to cleaners who are trying their best.

the overall job structure and design for some entry level jobs is flawed in my opinion. here, we hire `misfits' (not in degoratory terms), say for cleaners. the old retirees we often see are often too slow and not equipped to handle the intensity of the job (clean effectively and efficiently). you pegged it to ridiculous pay, you get wrong people for the job and low esteem amongst these people. i cannot understand the rationale from the government why we cannot pay more for people when we always argue that cost increase in other invariables cannot be controlled. and conversely, we need to pay more for the so-called smarts in the higher food chain. if singapore pride on positioning its workforce to the world on having an intelligent workforce in the past that can command a premium because of the value it brings, why this line of thot cannot apply to all?

australia has left singapore behind in terms of its wage structure for similar line of work. in my line of work in IT, my equivalent in aussieland is drawing at least 40-50% more for the same job. you could argue they pay more tax but they overall, their cost of living is much more manageable, all things being equal.

singapore's worsening gini co-efficient is alreacy evident of all this but the government is not resolute in tackling this. as long as their pockets is not hurt. to me, that's a kick in the jaw for the rest of us.

atobe: On the positive side, the cheap FT help the locals to speak the mother tongue more accurately.

i hope you are saying it in jest. i don't need to learn to speak better `putong hua' even tho' i can do with a few lessons. and of cos, now we already have enclaves of people settling in parts of singapore that i think can present social problems in the future. burmese in the west, filipino's in the north, indians and chinese everywhere. PAP have been able to control the population mix of singaporeans. this i think is harder.

seems to me like the low wage workers in Singapore are exploited, overworked and underpaid.

true worker's unions are required in the bargaining process, against big corporations who have more market power. i agree that strikes, picketing and walk outs would inconvenience the public, but i guess it's a necessary evil to create a balance between the powerful corporations and exploited workers.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 12:06:20 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 12:06:20 +0800

Originally posted by elindra:

Unions...u will need to see if the union is strong or weak

The SIA pilot union is strong and works while the SIA Engineer union is like lapdogs for management so pretty useless

talking about SIA pilot's union, i can still recall LKY participating in the bargaining process. with some threats of deportation and maybe ISA arrest to the head honcho of the pilot's union.

so was LKY representing workers or corporation in the bargaining process?

i thought government protect worker's rights standing alongside NTUC. seems like there might be a conflict of interest, like everything else.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by redDUST @ Thu, 15 May 2008 12:02:50 +0800

redDUST — Thu, 15 May 2008 12:02:50 +0800

i have mentioned previously that singapore society overall is not mature, or have not kept up with its material acquisition or progress over the years.

in US, diners use trays when they eat in the foodcourts and clear the table in a clean condition so the next diner can enjoy their meal. the cleaners there are to provide cover if someone misses a spot. here, we are all more keen to see who can leave a bigger mess on the table everytime we eat outside; whether in hawker centres or foodcourts. and i have noticed how some are (eved) rude to cleaners who are trying their best.

the overall job structure and design for some entry level jobs is flawed in my opinion. here, we hire `misfits' (not in degoratory terms), say for cleaners. the old retirees we often see are often too slow and not equipped to handle the intensity of the job (clean effectively and efficiently). you pegged it to ridiculous pay, you get wrong people for the job and low esteem amongst these people. i cannot understand the rationale from the government why we cannot pay more for people when we always argue that cost increase in other invariables cannot be controlled. and conversely, we need to pay more for the so-called smarts in the higher food chain. if singapore pride on positioning its workforce to the world on having an intelligent workforce in the past that can command a premium because of the value it brings, why this line of thot cannot apply to all?

australia has left singapore behind in terms of its wage structure for similar line of work. in my line of work in IT, my equivalent in aussieland is drawing at least 40-50% more for the same job. you could argue they pay more tax but they overall, their cost of living is much more manageable, all things being equal.

singapore's worsening gini co-efficient is alreacy evident of all this but the government is not resolute in tackling this. as long as their pockets is not hurt. to me, that's a kick in the jaw for the rest of us.

atobe: On the positive side, the cheap FT help the locals to speak the mother tongue more accurately.

i hope you are saying it in jest. i don't need to learn to speak better `putong hua' even tho' i can do with a few lessons. and of cos, now we already have enclaves of people settling in parts of singapore that i think can present social problems in the future. burmese in the west, filipino's in the north, indians and chinese everywhere. PAP have been able to control the population mix of singaporeans. this i think is harder.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by cuddles @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:53:52 +0800

cuddles — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:53:52 +0800

I don't know about others, but seriously, nowadays I seldom hear people joining unions.. or is there supposed to be a specific union for the job you do?

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:50:50 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:50:50 +0800

Originally posted by cuddles:

but can we trust the unions?

can we trust the big coporations?

it's better to have a balance of power, rather than having the powers solely within the big corporations and none with the workers.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by elindra @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:50:37 +0800

elindra — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:50:37 +0800

Unions...u will need to see if the union is strong or weak

The SIA pilot union is strong and works while the SIA Engineer union is like lapdogs for management so pretty useless

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by cuddles @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:45:57 +0800

cuddles — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:45:57 +0800

but can we trust the unions?

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by eagle @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:44:16 +0800

eagle — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:44:16 +0800

I like this part

unions are required to tame the beast

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:41:06 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:41:06 +0800

Originally posted by eagle:

It is in the nature of the capitalist beast to exploit

it is the true nature, that's why true unions are required to tame the beast.

in the past, have we not heard of child labours in 3rd world countries being exploited by capitalist in the west.

their only intention is only $$$.

in jared diamond's book collapse, he talks about companies extracting minerals in montana for profits without concern for social cost (damage to the environment), because there were no laws to restrict their dumping of refining waste. in the end, those toxic chemicals contaminated the environment in montana resulting in enviromental damage. thereafter the companies close shop, because the cost of clean up is too hefty. afterall, they have already benifited from profits in the past, no point in incurring cost for clean up.

companies will always exploit to make profits without concern for social cost unless there are rules or watchdog (unions) to keep an eye over them.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by extra one @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:38:07 +0800

extra one — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:38:07 +0800

Originally posted by maurizio13:

do you really add value apart from complaining about other's complaints?

that guy is a moron ignore him

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by eagle @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:34:34 +0800

eagle — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:34:34 +0800

Originally posted by maurizio13:

most cost savings which turns into profits would hardly be passed down to consumers.

if someone runs a business with initial labour expense of $10,000, employs foreigners which resulted in cost savings of $5,000. will the cost savings trickle down to consumers in reduced food price? hardly i think. most likely it will end up in the pockets of business owners, because sole motive of business owners is to maximise their wealth. that's why real worker's unions are needed to help in the bargaining process instead of just bringing in more foreign workers.

if businesses in Singapore truly exist for philantrophic purposes, then i guess we will see listed companies like Singtel, Singapore Power, SMRT donating anything in excess of 5% back to the consumers and workers. but year to year we see profits in Singapore Power in the 20% range. are they donating 15% of their profits back to the consumers and workers?

They give 5% back to shareholders

So let's buy their shares

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:32:45 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:32:45 +0800

Originally posted by Atobe:

On the positive side, the cheap FT help the locals to speak the mother tongue more accurately.

Unfortunately, it is a fact that they do help the Food Courts to maintain cost eficiencies with their low cost labor, which otherwise will have to increase charges that will affect the food prices that the Singaporean patrons will have to pay.

The migrant ''work-hard and can-do'' spirit can be an inspirational influence to younger Singaporeans, a feeling that cannot be expressed in words from parents trying to relate to the young about the experiences of our forefathers.

In every dark cloud there is always a silver lining.

most cost savings which turns into profits would hardly be passed down to consumers.

if someone runs a business with initial labour expense of $10,000, employs foreigners which resulted in cost savings of $5,000. will the cost savings trickle down to consumers in reduced food price? hardly i think. most likely it will end up in the pockets of business owners, because sole motive of business owners is to maximise their wealth. that's why real worker's unions are needed to help in the bargaining process instead of just bringing in more foreign workers.

if businesses in Singapore truly exist for philantrophic purposes, then i guess we will see listed companies like Singtel, Singapore Power, SMRT donating anything in excess of 5% back to the consumers and workers. but year to year we see profits in Singapore Power in the 20% range. are they donating 15% of their profits back to the consumers and workers?

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by eagle @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:27:33 +0800

eagle — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:27:33 +0800

Originally posted by maurizio13:

money denotes choice and allocation of resources in a capitalistic economy. in some cases, money might not be a solution, but in Singapore's case, i think otherwise.

ever compared our low wage workers to that of an equivalent country like Australia or New Zealand? why is another equivalent GDP per capita country able to pay it's service staff more than Singapore? why the disparity in wages? where has the difference in wages between us (Singapore) and them (Australia & New Zealand) gone? given that the GDP per capita is equivalent between us and them. is it likely that our top tier wage earners are being overpaid?

if the GDP per capita is US$30,000 for Singapore & Australia, Singapore low wage workers are say getting US$10,000 and Australian low wage workers are getting US$20,000. where does the US$10,000 go?

by importing more foreign workers, upsetting the equilibrium and depressing wages seems like the only solution given by our ministers.

It is in the nature of the capitalist beast to exploit

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by eagle @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:22:42 +0800

eagle — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:22:42 +0800

Originally posted by maurizio13:

well versed in 19 languages?

the last time i was served by an Indonesian, what ever i ordered, her standard reply was "thank you, that will be $2.50 sir". quite retarded. i feel like just paying her $2.50.

not that locals don't want to work in F&B line, it's just that the salary is not attractive enough. in most job markets where labour supply is fixed, wages would have to increase to entice folks into it, but here they suppress the wages and import more labour from other countries to destabilise the labour market.

in most countries, you have labour unions to fight for worker's rights and prevent exploitation. but in Singapore, you have NTUC (worker's union) who's only interested in making profits from it's supermarket and other businesses.

that's why Singapore workers has depressed wages as compared to other developed countries.

local F&B waiters and waitresses... normally students work part time also...

So employ FTs at students rates.... equally hua suan

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by cuddles @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:19:12 +0800

cuddles — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:19:12 +0800

Originally posted by maurizio13:

money denotes choice and allocation of resources in a capitalistic economy. in some cases, money might not be a solution, but in Singapore's case, i think otherwise.

ever compared our low wage workers to that of an equivalent country like Australia or New Zealand? why is another equivalent GDP per capita country able to pay it's service staff more than Singapore? why the disparity in wages? where has the difference in wages between us (Singapore) and them (Australia & New Zealand) gone? given that the GDP per capita is equivalent between us and them. is it likely that our top tier wage earners are being overpaid?

if the GDP per capita is US$30,000 for Singapore & Australia, Singapore low wage workers are say getting US$10,000 and Australian low wage workers are getting US$20,000. where does the US$10,000 go?

by importing more foreign workers, upsetting the equilibrium and depressing wages seems like the only solution given by our ministers.

actually this is why the everything inflates except our salaries. They are perhaps overpaid perhaps, but the companies who pays you issues your paycheck. It's the businesses who are paying market rate.

the same mentality people use FT, I also use since it's cheaper.

I agree that the low wage workers need more recognition for their service. Cleaning is easy but to hire someone who cleans yet project the right image is not easy.

whatever your arguments in this forum is not wrong, it's just that without someone to stand up for us in the opposition, nothing is really changing. The clever ones are sick of this place and left instead of shaping singapore.

I mean seriously, if there is just one person who can solve all these problems. I'll give him my vote.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by Atobe @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:17:12 +0800

Atobe — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:17:12 +0800

On the positive side, the cheap FT help the locals to speak the mother tongue more accurately.

Unfortunately, it is a fact that they do help the Food Courts to maintain cost eficiencies with their low cost labor, which otherwise will have to increase charges that will affect the food prices that the Singaporean patrons will have to pay.

The migrant ''work-hard and can-do'' spirit can be an inspirational influence to younger Singaporeans, a feeling that cannot be expressed in words from parents trying to relate to the young about the experiences of our forefathers.

In every dark cloud there is always a silver lining.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 11:03:48 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:03:48 +0800

Originally posted by cuddles:

I was crapping about the languages that the robots know of..

it's the glam thingy that singaporeans have been instilled upon. Office job = Higher level. F&B or Retail = Sec school part time job.

The wages can never be justified given everyone is thinking of level upping. And businesses would not want to pay more just for singaporeans.

so the discussion for this topic, should be how to attract singaporeans to do jobs that serves the progress, image of the nation? Singaporeans have ceased to be builders of their country.

One thing is the pride that singaporeans don't have in the things they do. In japan, I believe we have heard some customer service stories that were impressive? In singapore, people tend to look down on the basic workers. People don't realised that without these cleaners, Retail, F&B etc.. you think you can enjoy a simple lunch or dinner? and all we do is complain about their service?

Money is not just the way to go, although with the rising cost of inflation, it has to justify. Did you even try clearing your own trays at Fast food joints? Although you can say they have cleaners for this, I dare say that if everyone is public spirited, clearing their own trays will save many troubles. The cleaners still got a job to do that is to bring out the trash.

And don't say about why you paying for service charge and why should you keep the place clean or clear the trays. This is called Courtesy and such values are lost already.

Food court wise, nobody will expect you to wash the dishes. But maybe keep all the leftovers gather all the trays and plates consolidate on your own table NEATLY to let the cleaner have a easier job to speed up efficiency.

money denotes choice and allocation of resources in a capitalistic economy. in some cases, money might not be a solution, but in Singapore's case, i think otherwise.

ever compared our low wage workers to that of an equivalent country like Australia or New Zealand? why is another equivalent GDP per capita country able to pay it's service staff more than Singapore? why the disparity in wages? where has the difference in wages between us (Singapore) and them (Australia & New Zealand) gone? given that the GDP per capita is equivalent between us and them. is it likely that our top tier wage earners are being overpaid?

if the GDP per capita is US$30,000 for Singapore & Australia, Singapore low wage workers are say getting US$10,000 and Australian low wage workers are getting US$20,000. where does the US$10,000 go?

by importing more foreign workers, upsetting the equilibrium and depressing wages seems like the only solution given by our ministers.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by cuddles @ Thu, 15 May 2008 10:43:25 +0800

cuddles — Thu, 15 May 2008 10:43:25 +0800

Originally posted by maurizio13:

well versed in 19 languages?

the last time i was served by an Indonesian, what ever i ordered, her standard reply was "thank you, that will be $2.50 sir". quite retarded. i feel like just paying her $2.50.

not that locals don't want to work in F&B line, it's just that the salary is not attractive enough. in most job markets where labour supply is fixed, wages would have to increase to entice folks into it, but here they suppress the wages and import more labour from other countries to destabilise the labour market.

in most countries, you have labour unions to fight for worker's rights and prevent exploitation. but in Singapore, you have NTUC (worker's union) who's only interested in making profits from it's supermarket and other businesses.

that's why Singapore workers has depressed wages as compared to other developed countries.

I was crapping about the languages that the robots know of..

it's the glam thingy that singaporeans have been instilled upon. Office job = Higher level. F&B or Retail = Sec school part time job.

The wages can never be justified given everyone is thinking of level upping. And businesses would not want to pay more just for singaporeans.

so the discussion for this topic, should be how to attract singaporeans to do jobs that serves the progress, image of the nation? Singaporeans have ceased to be builders of their country.

One thing is the pride that singaporeans don't have in the things they do. In japan, I believe we have heard some customer service stories that were impressive? In singapore, people tend to look down on the basic workers. People don't realised that without these cleaners, Retail, F&B etc.. you think you can enjoy a simple lunch or dinner? and all we do is complain about their service?

Money is not just the way to go, although with the rising cost of inflation, it has to justify. Did you even try clearing your own trays at Fast food joints? Although you can say they have cleaners for this, I dare say that if everyone is public spirited, clearing their own trays will save many troubles. The cleaners still got a job to do that is to bring out the trash.

And don't say about why you paying for service charge and why should you keep the place clean or clear the trays. This is called Courtesy and such values are lost already.

Food court wise, nobody will expect you to wash the dishes. But maybe keep all the leftovers gather all the trays and plates consolidate on your own table NEATLY to let the cleaner have a easier job to speed up efficiency.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 10:15:23 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 10:15:23 +0800

Originally posted by cuddles:

because locals don't want to do frontline F&B liao. so no choice. engage FTs who are the only people willing to do nowadays.. soon even them also don't want to do.. we'll see robots doing for us liao. well versed in 19 languages bundled with speed 2.0 and upgrades for control 4.5

well versed in 19 languages?

the last time i was served by an Indonesian, what ever i ordered, her standard reply was "thank you, that will be $2.50 sir". quite retarded. i feel like just paying her $2.50.

not that locals don't want to work in F&B line, it's just that the salary is not attractive enough. in most job markets where labour supply is fixed, wages would have to increase to entice folks into it, but here they suppress the wages and import more labour from other countries to destabilise the labour market.

in most countries, you have labour unions to fight for worker's rights and prevent exploitation. but in Singapore, you have NTUC (worker's union) who's only interested in making profits from it's supermarket and other businesses.

that's why Singapore workers has depressed wages as compared to other developed countries.

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by maurizio13 @ Thu, 15 May 2008 10:05:46 +0800

maurizio13 — Thu, 15 May 2008 10:05:46 +0800

Originally posted by the Bear:

do you really add value apart from complaining?

do you really add value apart from complaining about other's complaints?

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by cuddles @ Thu, 15 May 2008 10:01:36 +0800

cuddles — Thu, 15 May 2008 10:01:36 +0800

because locals don't want to do frontline F&B liao. so no choice. engage FTs who are the only people willing to do nowadays.. soon even them also don't want to do.. we'll see robots doing for us liao. well versed in 19 languages bundled with speed 2.0 and upgrades for control 4.5

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by the Bear @ Thu, 15 May 2008 09:57:54 +0800

the Bear — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:57:54 +0800

do you really add value apart from complaining?

there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread replied by HyperFocal @ Thu, 15 May 2008 09:42:43 +0800

HyperFocal — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:42:43 +0800

When service is bad, heartlanders feel it too
Thu, May 15, 2008
The Straits Times

I HAVE finally had enough of bad experiences with service by foreign workers from China.
I have been a resident of Singapore for almost 18 years and have never seen service here as bad as it has been for the past two to three years.

Why do establishments put foreign workers who do not have even elementary grasp of English in the frontline?

My wife is a non-Chinese Singaporean. We both have become increasingly frustrated in ordering the simplest of things at restaurants and supermarkets.

But what happened on the first weekend of this month was just too much to take. We were at a supermarket in Tampines and tried to order 1.5kg of live prawns.
Simple enough, one would think. The man who attended to us spoke no English. In fact, he could not decipher our request even when we wrote it down for him.

He went from 3kg to 2kg and everything in between. Finally, a co-worker assisted him and we thought that was it. But he proceeded to weigh the prawns along with copious amounts of water. At $21 a kilo, I didn't fancy paying for water. Once again there were several minutes of dialogue and gesturing just to get him to drain the water.

Meanwhile, a crowd of agitated customers had gathered. Finally he got the message and drained the water.

Then, he started to weigh in dead prawns. Back to several more minutes of trying to make him understand I was paying for live ones.

I never get this sort of disgraceful service when I am at the same supermarket's outlet nearer to the city. The answer

is simple: Many expatriates frequent that place and the management realises the counter staff need to communicate in English.

Obviously it does not care about the frustrations of heartlanders when its service staff do not speak English.

Don't think I am picking on this supermarket - the list of poor service providers is extremely long. It just happens that this was my latest frustration.

Dr Richard Martorano

Recent Posts in 'there is existing thread, but i still wanna post new thread' | sgForums.com