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  • foxtrout8's Avatar
    1,169 posts since May '02
    • Originally posted by CX:
      oh lay off that already! so tiring hearing u say the same crap over and over again...

      yeah yeah... animal *growl* it gets a bit old and ridiculous when u keep repeating it... Rolling Eyes

      i guess what everyone basically has to say about this is that we'll fight, and fight hard, but deep down, in the hearts of every citizen soldier, all they wanna do is finish the fight and go home to their families and THAT is not too much to ask for.

      big pictures are painted by those not in the battlefield. all the soldier needs to do when in the field is not to look at the big picture, or the small picture, but to simply get the freaking job done so that those people pinning flags in the sand models can get on with their planning. a soldier needs focus, not perfect information.

      too much unnecessary info can actually kill u...

      Wat liao eh......... Agree Hands Down man...~!

      Remember , war is 90 % information , but yet i somehow agree with ur statement on too much info can kill....

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02

    • At the most basic level of warfare, it boils down to animal behavior to hunt and avoid being hunted; that calls for animal instinct.

      "Growl" if that helps to boost your adrenaline, just be sure that you don't act rash.

      An urban community such as ours, most have rarely even walk through the deep forests between the resevoirs. When actual exercises are conducted in the deep jungles of Brunei and Thailand, most get lost and adopt a cavalier attitude that can get themselves killed in a real situation.

      This was the situation during the Confrontation with Indonesia, when a section from our Singapore Infantry Regiment was wiped out in Johor, except for one survivor.

      If too much information actually kills a soldier, it is more due to the soldier's incapacity to differentiate what is needed for his own good, and what should be discarded.

      If your premise hold, why would the Future Soldier concept even be developed at such a high cost?

      The Future Soldier concept will allow the individual to be fully aware of the situation around him, and to assist him in getting through the "fog of war".

      Had the technology been available, that section of infantry men could probably have been alive to tell of their experience of being ambused.

      This is a far cry from the concept of "too much information kills".

  • MushyMaro's Avatar
    151 posts since Jan '03
    • Originally posted by foxtrout8:
      There are advantages of owning a carrier.

      1) it helps in force projection.

      2) it immuned the risk of all vital base to be destroyed in an enemy offensive attack.

      3) roles in humanitarian mission.

      4) roles in forward supply depot.

      however we must understand singapore's constraints and the disadvantage of owning a carrier.

      1) a carrier is on big piece of metal which needs alot of pple to run.Not onli u need pple to run the carrier , u need pple to run the other ships which make a carrier fleet.

      2) it expensive to keep a carrier operational. It will burn alot of tax payers money , then tax have to go up liao.....

      even if singapore have the capacity to turn the ship automated , and have the money to run the fleet , then another problem is...
      3) it will cause a arm race in the region!!!

      I believe a LPD is enough for singapore's force projection ambition , however obtaining a carrier isnt impossible but quite a long way for us......

      that is right and one more thing... a carrier is just a BIG BIG FAT FAT target. it will just be overwhelm by anti ship missiles and decoy missiles.

  • CX's Avatar
    1,926 posts since Apr '02
    • Originally posted by Atobe:
      At the most basic level of warfare, it boils down to animal behavior to hunt and avoid being hunted; that calls for animal instinct.

      "Growl" if that helps to boost your adrenaline, just be sure that you don't act rash.

      An urban community such as ours, most have rarely even walk through the deep forests between the resevoirs. When actual exercises are conducted in the deep jungles of Brunei and Thailand, most get lost and adopt a cavalier attitude that can get themselves killed in a real situation.

      This was the situation during the Confrontation with Indonesia, when a section from our Singapore Infantry Regiment was wiped out in Johor, except for one survivor.

      If too much information actually kills a soldier, it is more due to the soldier's incapacity to differentiate what is needed for his own good, and what should be discarded.

      If your premise hold, why would the Future Soldier concept even be developed at such a high cost?

      The Future Soldier concept will allow the individual to be fully aware of the situation around him, and to assist him in getting through the "fog of war".

      Had the technology been available, that section of infantry men could probably have been alive to tell of their experience of being ambused.

      This is a far cry from the concept of "too much information kills".

      the fog of war may lift, but is the picture any clearer?

      you are right... as information technology is being harnessed for the battlefield, it takes a lot of analytical skills and training for a soldier to decide what info is useful and which info is trash.

      we don't know how this will play out yet because we have not used or seen it used on a massive scale yet. an inadequately trained soldier bombarded with this kind of info will certainly feel disorientated and make mistakes. but one who is trained will certainly try to exploit the techology to its fullest advantage.

      ultimately, because the core of the system is not its capabilities, but its operators, we should refrain from making overly general statements which may make us look like jackasses eventually.

      i stand by my point. in an intense combat enviornment, focus is more important than perfect information.

      look... our points are not exactly mutually irreconciliable. timely information focused on that particular task is important. if there's a guy with a gun hiding in a corner waiting to grease me, i'll want to know and i can know with the help of sensors, thermal imagers and radio information.

      but i'll prefer to be shielded from what the other coys are doing on the other side of the map until i need to, which is probably AFTER i clear this area because there's no way i can run over and help them immediately anyway!

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by CX:
      the fog of war may lift, but is the picture any clearer?

      you are right... as information technology is being harnessed for the battlefield, it takes a lot of analytical skills and training for a soldier to decide what info is useful and which info is trash.

      we don't know how this will play out yet because we have not used or seen it used on a massive scale yet. an inadequately trained soldier bombarded with this kind of info will certainly feel disorientated and make mistakes. but one who is trained will certainly try to exploit the techology to its fullest advantage.

      ultimately, because the core of the system is not its capabilities, but its operators, we should refrain from making overly general statements which may make us look like jackasses eventually.

      i stand by my point. in an intense combat enviornment, focus is more important than perfect information.

      look... our points are not exactly mutually irreconciliable. timely information focused on that particular task is important. if there's a guy with a gun hiding in a corner waiting to grease me, i'll want to know and i can know with the help of sensors, thermal imagers and radio information.

      but i'll prefer to be shielded from what the other coys are doing on the other side of the map until i need to, which is probably AFTER i clear this area because there's no way i can run over and help them immediately anyway!

      You are certainly right, FOCUS and Agressiveness Intelligence of the Individual Soldier should be the key operative to achieve our mutual goal of getting the job done.

      However, I would rather that you not be shielded from what the other coys are doing on the other side of the map, as I would prefer you to know where I am located.

      It will only be for our mutual benefit, that in the heat of the battle, with all the smoke from intended cover or burnt out equipment, both of us should not mistake each other as unfriendlies when viewed at a distance, and take each other out by mistake.

      Edited by Atobe 11 Feb `03, 5:14AM
  • CX's Avatar
    1,926 posts since Apr '02
    • Originally posted by Atobe:
      You are certainly right, FOCUS and Agressiveness Intelligence of the Individual Soldier should be the key operative to achieve our mutual goal of getting the job done.

      However, I would rather that you not be shielded from what the other coys are doing on the other side of the map, as I would prefer you to know where I am located.

      It will only be for our mutual benefit, that in the heat of the battle, with all the smoke from intended cover or burnt out equipment, both of us should not mistake each other as unfriendlies when viewed at a distance, and take each other out by mistake.

      ok... if they're in close proximity to your force, u'll probably need to know to avoid unfortunate incidence of friendly fire... but if they're several map grids away, i don't think its that pressing anymore...

      this gets more apparent during training in a larger area of ops, esp overseas where missions are conducted over LARGE land areas...

      whats the need of knowing too much of what the rest are doing in this case when they're literally MILES away from u? u won't accidentally shoot them cos they won't be anywhere close by...

      hence, what an effective future soldier needs is superior, localised information to enhance his sense of his surroundings, not useless info which would not help, but would impede and distract him.

      and of course, there are various levels of info... a soldier would only need the localised type, a commander might need to communicate and co-ordinate and hence, other tools should be made available to help do this.

      i mean, seriously... picture this: why would a rifleman training in LCK need to know what his friend from the other company is doing down at elephant hill? they can accidentally shoot each other meh?

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
  • CX's Avatar
    1,926 posts since Apr '02
    • Originally posted by Atobe:
      What is the range of some of our Heavy Weapons ?

      not so much the range, but the modes of activating them... calling arty for instance... how dumb can u be to call in arty at precisely the square that u, or your sister units are in?

      besides, it is standard operating procedure for most armies to call in arty before ground troops move in to mop up.

      if u're the first ones to move across a line, u can probably be certain that anything that lies across that line is hostile and fair game and u probably will not move off until u've secured that line for others to advance.

      if u fail in that objective, then its no harm if those behind u call in arty again to nuke the objective before moving again right? Smile

      i assume a one direction advance of course, not an inchon-style macarthur pincer which will spread limited forces too thinly.

      is this what u're getting at? Very Happy

  • Moderator
    Shotgun's Avatar
    7,238 posts since Jul '00
    • Pincer style movements only help when the enemy is confused or shell-shocked. SHELL-shocked. Otherwise, one tip is usually a diversion.

      Arty remains to be a very versatile weapon. You can use it for attack and defense. To support attacking force, or the aid retreating forces. Given the nature of our local terrain, its definitely artillery land.

      About the infomation arguement. What I feel is this. Having information is good. And ideally, its information on demand. However flooding a squad leader on the entire brigades worth of movement, may not be helpful to some people. A person can only absorb a certain amount of information. Some can think faster and better, some can't. Thus, information should be given on a "Need to know" basis. To have the information there, whenever you need it. Now that helps.

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
    • Just to save space, I won't "quote" last piece, but will refer to addressee's "callsign", hope this is OK with "CX".

      Apologies for delay response, but "Shotgun"s post clarify my position quite well.

      Information of the Upper Echelon's general intent or work plan, will help any lower echelon COMMANDER to ensure that accidents do not happen, both in attack or defensive mode.

      There will be instances where an attack may meet up with a strong counter attack from opposing force(s), and the Attacking Force may have to switch to defensive role, calling in support (arty, air, armor or infantry) from any available neighboring forces.

      The movie "We are Soldiers" was a clear depiction of real life event during the Vietnam War, when air and arty support was called in right into their grid square, as the single US battalion was being overwhelmed by a superior Vietnamese Force.

      In a Battalion attack or defense, a Section Commander can benefit if he understand the general direction or intention for his Battalion, and if need be up to Brigade Level (that covers several map grids).

      If ever the section get lost, it will not be detrimental if the Section Commander and his men has a fair knowledge as to which direction to move, to meet up with friendly forces (or not to move, in the event of walking into friendly fire or killing zones, or lines of attack).

      Information on call, will certainly help in modern warfare, where events can move or change very rapidly.

      Edited by Atobe 12 Feb `03, 5:39PM
  • CX's Avatar
    1,926 posts since Apr '02
    • well, bearing in mind that "we were soldiers" took place during the vietnam war 40 years ago and we're essentially talking about the "future soldier" concept which might happen in the future.

      better to put things back into their proper perspective don't u think?

  • ` ~ `
    Atobe's Avatar
    8,715 posts since Oct '02
    • The analogy from "We are Soldiers" was in response to your question:

      "not so much the range, but the modes of activating them... calling arty for instance... how dumb can u be to call in arty at precisely the square that u, or your sister units are in?"

      Certainly, with "RELEVANT" and "REAL TIME" information being made available on call for the Future Soldier, in which he is linked with the other "Future Soldiers" on the Ground, or in the Air, or at Sea, they will be able to lend each other mutual suport, without incurring the losses from friendly fire, as encountered in the movie.

      Each soldier's location will be specifically and accurately known and co-ordinated in a manner that allow mutual support fire to be effectively provided for attack, withdrawal, or in defense, without incurring any losses.

      Try the following sites, for an in-depth review of the Future Soldier.

      http://web.qx.net/warcat/MilSF/Futinfty.htm

      http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/future/index.html

      http://www.mindjack.com/feature/landwarrior.html

      Edited by Atobe 14 Feb `03, 3:05AM
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