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Super Cobra vs. Apache vs. EuroCopter Tiger vs.Hokum

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  • SpecOps87's Avatar
    2,811 posts since Apr '04
    • Ok mates,any idea why RSAF chose the Boeing AH-64D and AH-64 Apache?Just doing a comparision here.As during the period when the RSAF was selecting the gunships that period if I didn't remember wrongly,these were the few choppers on shortlisted.

      There seems to be very few countries using the EuroCopter Tiger and there is little news about the Russian Hokum also.Always in the news is the American Super Cobra and Apache.

      Also to side-track alittle,is there anyone in RSAF here?I have a burning question,why isn't our UH-1H Hueys used as gunships like in the Vietnam war?When it has been proven to be an effective gunship.

  • zenden9's Avatar
    1,221 posts since Nov '03
    • Apache is war proven in the first gulf war! It’s heavy armour makes it well-protected ot of the three but from the SAF chopper pilot who conducted the test flight of eurotiger.He concluded eurotiger is easier to handle than Apache. Our close relationship with US may be another reason for going for Apache!

  • branzzz's Avatar
    218 posts since Nov '02
    • the apache is not totally great. during the second gulf war, a few were lost to small arms fire. if i’m correct, there was a flight of 33 apaches that had to turn back due to small arms fire, and some even got shot down…

  • Moonstriker's Avatar
    1,065 posts since Aug '02
  • tooled_up's Avatar
    11 posts since May '04
    • Hi all, how come no one mentioned the super cobra,

      The USMC have been using them for donkey years...from vietnam to Operation iraqi freedom.

      Something must be right, for the USMC to use them that long!!!care to enlighten anyone?

  • storywolf's Avatar
    2,635 posts since Mar '04
    • RSAF chose the Boeing AH-64D and AH-64 Apache

      Because it is better armoured then Tiger and super Cobra. Incorporating longbow radar, it offer tehcnology which the other still behind.

      The hokum may be a tougher machine, but lost out in acuracy, technology. The problem face with tiger and hokum, will be long term supply and training ( manual may be in other language and inproperly translated )

      Remember Isreal's Yum Kuppur war, the USA basic open their door, grab lots of stuff like skyhawks, missiles, and send them direct to isreal which is one factors which turn the war. Same apply here, if ever there is war and we need urgent re-supply, who else but the US can open the door to their hangers and let us grab what we want straight and fly without having to retrain pilots.

  • HENG@'s Avatar
    37,245 posts since Jul '03
    • if i remember correctly, another contender was the south african rooivak?(spelling wrong i think)

  • zenden9's Avatar
    1,221 posts since Nov '03
    • Originally posted by tooled_up:
      Hi all, how come no one mentioned the super cobra,

      The USMC have been using them for donkey years...from vietnam to Operation iraqi freedom.

      Something must be right, for the USMC to use them that long!!!care to enlighten anyone?

      It's small signature makes it hard to be detect by radar and visually!
      Apache may be better but too big while small gunship is needed for marines in their landing ship carrier!

    • Originally posted by storywolf:
      RSAF chose the Boeing AH-64D and AH-64 Apache

      Because it is better armoured then Tiger and super Cobra. Incorporating longbow radar, it offer tehcnology which the other still behind.

      The hokum may be a tougher machine, but lost out in acuracy, technology. The problem face with tiger and hokum, will be long term supply and training ( manual may be in other language and inproperly translated )

      Remember Isreal's Yum Kuppur war, the USA basic open their door, grab lots of stuff like skyhawks, missiles, and send them direct to isreal which is one factors which turn the war. Same apply here, if ever there is war and we need urgent re-supply, who else but the US can open the door to their hangers and let us grab what we want straight and fly without having to retrain pilots.

      I heard longbow radar is not offered to RSAF,only the gunship itself!

  • cutebug's Avatar
    62 posts since Apr '04
    • Originally posted by zenden9:
      I heard longbow radar is not offered to RSAF,only the gunship itself!

      Sg order 8 longbow + 12 without long bow. Sg had recived the 8 with longbow radar in US. Sg can only bring back to Sg only after 2006, but due to Sg support of the recently war, Sg AH64D are going home Dec 2004.

  • |-|05|'s Avatar
    4,254 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by zenden9:
      I heard longbow radar is not offered to RSAF,only the gunship itself!

      nope we got the LB

  • panzerjager's Avatar
    243 posts since Mar '04
    • Originally posted by |-|05|:
      nope we got the LB

      It's the Longbow radar that makes the difference from all the other attack chocks contenders.

      With the radar, the Apaches avail themselves another vital role in the initial stages of any war - Suppresion of Enemy Air Defences, by
      masking and unmasking themselves as they creep towards enemy objectives to detect, identify, target and engage enemy radar and SAM sites. Once this job is done, there will be lower risk to friendly strike aircraft

  • Viper52's Avatar
    1,801 posts since Oct '01
    • Originally posted by storywolf:
      Remember Isreal's Yum Kuppur war, the USA basic open their door, grab lots of stuff like skyhawks, missiles, and send them direct to isreal which is one factors which turn the war. Same apply here, if ever there is war and we need urgent re-supply, who else but the US can open the door to their hangers and let us grab what we want straight and fly without having to retrain pilots.

      Its NEVER going to happen to us. We're effectively a 2nd rate US ally, and we don't have a huge, rich and powerful lobby speaking out for us ensuring we get billions of USD in military aid.

      As for the original question, I would believe that as someone else suggested, the issue that swung the decision in favour of the AH-64 is the Longbow radar. Its adds a totally new dimension to the armed helicopter thats not in any of the other attack helos to date.

  • Joe Black's Avatar
    863 posts since Oct '01
    • However, I can offer another POV....

      Getting Super Cobra might not be a bad idea if they are deployed like how the US Marines do theirs. Flying the super cobra as CAS aircraft where they lack a dedicated CAS plane like the USAF A-10 Warhogs.

      I am thinking along the line that if RSAF can purchase another sqn of attack/recon choppers like the Super Cobras or Roovialks, they would just supplement the Apaches nicely. Apaches can do all the hide and seek thingy whereas the lighter way, more agile attack helos play the army support role or suppressing enemies.

      However, I reckon Mindef will never consider such a thingy as Mindef cannot afford to have another attack helo in the fleet. The US Army essentially have both types though, although they are slowly phasing out the AH-1F and AH-1S. Perhaps Singapore could get them Smile hee hee

  • |-|05|'s Avatar
    4,254 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by Joe Black:
      However, I can offer another POV....

      Getting Super Cobra might not be a bad idea if they are deployed like how the US Marines do theirs. Flying the super cobra as CAS aircraft where they lack a dedicated CAS plane like the USAF A-10 Warhogs.

      I am thinking along the line that if RSAF can purchase another sqn of attack/recon choppers like the Super Cobras or Roovialks, they would just supplement the Apaches nicely. Apaches can do all the hide and seek thingy whereas the lighter way, more agile attack helos play the army support role or suppressing enemies.

      However, I reckon Mindef will never consider such a thingy as Mindef cannot afford to have another attack helo in the fleet. The US Army essentially have both types though, although they are slowly phasing out the AH-1F and AH-1S. Perhaps Singapore could get them Smile hee hee

      UAV's!!!!and maybe our UH1's!

  • storywolf's Avatar
    2,635 posts since Mar '04
    • The chance of Singapore getting super cobra or another type of attack heli is no, as whatever saving in cost will be wasted in different in maintanance, spare and training which will end up more expensive.

      To : Cutebug
      Singapore usually have the habit of anouning part of the deals only to public, as a way of not to offend the neighbours. Usually they would buy more or better upgrade sliently. Like Apache case, after the initial announment, there is a separate deal for the longbow upgrade package and additional number of apache also. Usually if you keep up with defense news, the manufacturers themselves tends to leak out the news, of what is the add-on purchases.

      To : Viper52
      Don't underestimate the relationship between Singapore and US, there is a lot more then meet the eye. Note that we are sitting on 2 both major shipping straits in the world. Without it, basically it cut japan, korea which US have huge interest in. Just take a closer look at how our navy fleet is structured, and you will know the answer. If ever there is a war, the chances of US opening their warehouses door to us like what they did for Isreal, is very high, mainly to protect its own interest and earn our reserve $$$.

      Edited by storywolf 06 May `04, 12:49PM
  • |-|05|'s Avatar
    4,254 posts since Oct '02
    • Originally posted by storywolf:
      The chance of Singapore getting super cobra or another type of attack heli is no, as whatever saving in cost will be wasted in different in maintanance, spare and training which will end up more expensive.

      To : Cutebug
      Singapore usually have the habit of anouning part of the deals only to public, as a way of not to offend the neighbours. Usually they would buy more or better upgrade sliently. Like Apache case, after the initial announment, there is a separate deal for the longbow upgrade package and additional number of apache also. Usually if you keep up with defense news, the manufacturers themselves tends to leak out the news, of what is the add-on purchases.

      To : Viper52
      Don't underestimate the relationship between Singapore and US, there is a lot more then meet the eye. Note that we are sitting on 2 both major shipping straits in the world. Without it, basically it cut japan, korea which US have huge interest in. Just take a closer look at how our navy fleet is structured, and you will know the answer. If ever there is a war, the chances of US opening their warehouses door to us like what they did for Isreal, is very high, mainly to protect its own interest and earn our reserve $$$.

      The Longbow radar was officially annouced wad.....howcome u all talk like we dun have it liddat.....?Anyway while the US might open their stores to us they arent likely to give them to us like Israel got neither will we get the F/A22.No fully stealth plane will be sold anytime soon....Though it's interesting to note that Britian almost got some F117's

  • storywolf's Avatar
    2,635 posts since Mar '04
    • 05
      "The Longbow radar was officially annouced wad.....howcome u all talk like we dun have it liddat.....?Anyway while the US might open their stores to us they arent likely to give them to us like Israel got neither will we get the F/A22.No fully stealth plane will be sold anytime soon....Though it's interesting to note that Britian almost got some F117's"

      Yes longbow was announned, but the initial order of apache did not have the longbow included. It came later in purchase, as a separate deal, which was anounned only later.

      What we can used is not F22, but the F16s, missiles, bombs and countermeasures.

  • SpecOps87's Avatar
    2,811 posts since Apr '04
    • Hey,anyway,what is the anti-air capabilities of the Cobra vs.Apache vs.EuroCopter Tiger vs. Hokum?It seems all these gunships are about are against tanks and ground units.And btw,if i didn’t remember wrongly,it is said that the EuroCopter Tiger is anti-electromagnetic pulse attacks.So why didn’t the RSAF choose the EuroCopter Tiger instead?

  • storywolf's Avatar
    2,635 posts since Mar '04
    • SpecOp87,

      Cobra, Apache, Eurocopter and Hokum, all can be fixed with short-range heat seeking missile. Think Hokum will have the advantage of speed but the rest will have the advantage of better IR protection in air to air.

      US has been the pioneer in the field of electro-magnetic pulse(EMP). During the cold war the US have done a lot of research on EMP, because at that time there is a high chance russia may consider using EMP. Therefore expect most US expensive weapon system have EMP resistance. Don't forget Apache is design to fight war including in nuclear war scenerio, like other weapon system.

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