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BMTC VS SISPEC VS OCS

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  • kwlee's Avatar
    1,740 posts since Aug '04
  • Obersturmfuhrer's Avatar
    1,354 posts since Jun '04
    • Why is there a need to compare apples with oranges and pears?

      All got different training and focus.

  • baer's Avatar
    326 posts since Jul '04
    • Like compare Secondary, Poly and College/University. Why you bother to try, BMT and SISPEC is 3 months, OCS is 9 months (only common measure)

  • dra5guards's Avatar
    29 posts since Sep '04
    • Hmmm maybe the difference is

      BMT - Enjoy like don't know what. HOLIDAY...

      SISPEC - DO you know that there it is run by WARRANT Officers.... I repeat Warrant Officers.

      OCS. Run by officers. Your section Instructor will be a new officer. Trained to be God's Gift to the rifle Coy.. They are so great that they don't need to listen to their PS or CSM's advice.

      If you ask me what is the difference between being run by Commissioned or Warrant.. You need to have your head check.

  • Obersturmfuhrer's Avatar
    1,354 posts since Jun '04
    • Originally posted by dra5guards:
      OCS. Run by officers. Your section Instructor will be a new officer. Trained to be God's Gift to the rifle Coy.. They are so great that they don't need to listen to their PS or CSM's advice.

      Most section instructors are not green horns as you've stated here. Most have been through their PC tours before being hauled back to SAFTI. The greenhorns are more likely found in the HQ's training teams.

      And yes, they do consult with the WSM. There are no PS or CSM in a training wing.

      Edited by Obersturmfuhrer 04 Oct `04, 7:31PM
  • wuming78's Avatar
    17,056 posts since May '03
    • Originally posted by kwlee:
      Let's list all the difference between the training schools Laughing

      differences? i think the key difference, and one that rules out any further meaningful comparison, is that the first trains recruits, the second trains specialists-to-be, while the third trains officer cadets.

  • erijazz's Avatar
    2,326 posts since May '03
  • beavan's Avatar
    3,923 posts since May '04
  • dra5guards's Avatar
    29 posts since Sep '04
    • Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:
      Most section instructors are not green horns as you've stated here. Most have been through their PC tours before being hauled back to SAFTI. The greenhorns are more likely found in the HQ's training teams.

      And yes, they do consult with the WSM. There are no PS or CSM in a training wing.

      I was refering to PC in a Rifle Coy. They believe they are God's gift to the Infantry Coy. (Of course not all.... just a general statement)
      I know a Wing does not have a CSM. It is called a Wing Sergeant Major. Just like a WSM in ASTW. (Duhh)

      And how long is a PC tour? 1 year?
      How long is a Section Commander tour? - Usually 1 Mono-intake.
      So a PS would have served one whole mono as a SC before serving as a PS.

      And compared to the PC in Sispec who is a 2WO. Or in ASTW, where your Syndicate Instructor is a 1WO. That is the difference you get between SISPEC and the Section Instructor in OCS.

  • Obersturmfuhrer's Avatar
    1,354 posts since Jun '04
    • True that experience-wise, most OCS instructors lose out to SISPEC. But there are also many WOs and Senior Specs among the Teams. You cannot blame the officers for their short stint as PCs, most of them would have loved to stay longer if they could. I was lucky to extend my stay for 6 months due to manpower shortage. Mr. Green My guys weren't that happy though. Twisted Evil

  • Johnston's Avatar
    692 posts since Dec '03
    • Originally posted by kwlee:
      Let's list all the difference between the training schools Laughing

      BMTC VS SISPEC VS OCS
      is equal to
      Kindergarten VS Secondary Vs Tertiary.

      Additionally.

      BMTC gives you Basic Military Training and assesses your suitability for further training.

      SISPEC trains you to be a leader of Infantry.

      OCS trains you to be an officer.

      Is that sufficient.

      or perhaps you want to compare the length of their courses, facility size, and others?

  • dra5guards's Avatar
    29 posts since Sep '04
    • Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:
      True that experience-wise, most OCS instructors lose out to SISPEC. But there are also many WOs and Senior Specs among the Teams. You cannot blame the officers for their short stint as PCs, most of them would have loved to stay longer if they could. I was lucky to extend my stay for 6 months due to manpower shortage. Mr. Green My guys weren't that happy though. Twisted Evil

      Trust me when I say there is a difference in seeing a 2WO who is old enough to your father leading you in a charge and NO body and I mean No body in the Platoon (who consist of young 18-20 ) years old can actually keep up with him. Compare it to a Young 1LT charging you can see the difference.

      And believe me when I tell you that, teh 2WO viewpoint aas YOUR own PC is different tahn all the WOs and Senior Spec in the training teams or whatever.

      And believe me when I tell you, having a 1WO as your Syndicate Instructor or Commander and he leads you in Section Movement.
      Find a 1LT that can do that.

      And I have seen CPTs who have NOT even done their PC tour. So I beg to differ.

  • Obersturmfuhrer's Avatar
    1,354 posts since Jun '04
    • I would have to agree with your point that any WO can do a better job leading a section charge but its also comparing apples to oranges in that officers do not just lead sections. Apart from that they also have overall responsibility of the whole platoon, coy, etc.

      Which also reminds me, the SAF CPT is a funny rank, with all sorts of people so taking that level as a reference to judging command performance is flawed. Furthermore, different people go along different tracks, which also happens to be very dependent on availability. Not every greenhorn 2LT gets to be posted as PCs since we only have so many combat units.

  • dra5guards's Avatar
    29 posts since Sep '04
    • Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:
      I would have to agree with your point that any WO can do a better job leading a section charge but its also comparing apples to oranges in that officers do not just lead sections. Apart from that they also have overall responsibility of the whole platoon, coy, etc.

      Which also reminds me, the SAF CPT is a funny rank, with all sorts of people so taking that level as a reference to judging command performance is flawed. Furthermore, different people go along different tracks, which also happens to be very dependent on availability. Not every greenhorn 2LT gets to be posted as PCs since we only have so many combat units.

      Did I mentioned that thE CPT only had 15 mths as a soldier. That is inclusive of 4 mths BMT, 9 MthS OCS?
      Maybe I didn't....

      And relax, I am not condeming Officers. I am just stating that I have seen TOO many Officers (especially when they just pass out) who think they are God's Gift to the Rifle Coy.
      They absolutely ignore the adivice of their PS and CSM.
      And they undermine the authority of teh SC and PS.
      And in some case(come to think of it most cases) say that SISPEC teaches nothing like OCS and that OCS is the greatest school on earth.

      But than again I have seen Excellent Officers,

      I have served Officers who I would die for and under Officers who I wish would die (80% of the time latter)

  • Obersturmfuhrer's Avatar
    1,354 posts since Jun '04
    • Originally posted by dra5guards:
      And relax, I am not condeming Officers. I am just stating that I have seen TOO many Officers (especially when they just pass out) who think they are God's Gift to the Rifle Coy.
      They absolutely ignore the adivice of their PS and CSM.
      And they undermine the authority of the SC and PS.
      And in some case(come to think of it most cases) say that SISPEC teaches nothing like OCS and that OCS is the greatest school on earth.

      I'm not riled by those comments. I know my calibre and although I'm not among the best that other sing my praise, I'm more concerned with getting my job done. To complete my mission and to bring my boys back home.

      It's sad but it's true. It's also endemic in conscript armies all around the world. There are bad hats at every level that undermine the good name of others. There are also terrible WOs and Senior specs too but I cannot understand why people love to focus solely on bad officers instead. Do the "many years of experience" make them immune to such scrutiny or give them an excuse to behave badly?

      Come to think of it, SISPEC and OCS both teach differently so that last point is somewhat valid, although I dun think they put it across in the right way.

      Edited by Obersturmfuhrer 06 Oct `04, 4:59PM
  • Gordonator's Avatar
    43,270 posts since Jul '04
  • deathscythe99's Avatar
    15,514 posts since Apr '04
    • Originally posted by dra5guards:
      Did I mentioned that thE CPT only had 15 mths as a soldier. That is inclusive of 4 mths BMT, 9 MthS OCS?
      Maybe I didn't....

      And relax, I am not condeming Officers. I am just stating that I have seen TOO many Officers (especially when they just pass out) who think they are God's Gift to the Rifle Coy.
      They absolutely ignore the adivice of their PS and CSM.
      And they undermine the authority of teh SC and PS.
      And in some case(come to think of it most cases) say that SISPEC teaches nothing like OCS and that OCS is the greatest school on earth.

      But than again I have seen Excellent Officers,

      I have served Officers who I would die for and under Officers who I wish would die (80% of the time latter)

      Well, it seems u ARE saying that Warrants beat Officers anytime, everytime. Rolling Eyes

      And I beg to differ.

      The roles are different!

      And you are out of topic. This was a topic to compare BMTC,SISPEC,OCS, not a ranting thread to show your disgust on officers in the rifle coy. Hello? Pls make correct/related replies to the threads thanks.

  • LazerLordz's Avatar
    35,169 posts since Apr '03
    • But he does make a valid point.When you want to compare BMTC, SISPEC, and OCS, you will eventually come to a point where you have to compare the end-product of these places in order to weigh up their merits and demerits.he mentioned the experiences he faced under different kinds of commanders, be it WOs or officers.It is true that there are CPTs who serve barely any time yet their rank determines they have to be Coy 2IC, OC or SO2, SO1.The latter two are not so much a concern since they are staff appts which do not have a very direct influence on the men in a generic rifle coy or any combat coy.For the former three appts, I would rather have an experienced MWO or 1WO (grade2) to lead the men, provided he has gone for instructional and educational advancement courses.Reason being that the main job scope there is combat and soldier managment, and you need the years of experience and ability to see the nuances in the men's behavior to anticipate any problems and move them as a whole force.They have simply more experience at the ground, as opposed to some junior officers who have not managed people before and are thrown into a situation where he is the end-all for the battalion.He does not benefit, neither do the men.

      To be given CPT rank, he should have gone through his PC tour, or else he should be shifted to staff roles first.SISPEC and OCS do teach different things, and the ROA to the top is certainly a very different route.But what the previous guy said, does make for pondering.Scholars are not blooded well enough, and they are not military affairs, history or tactics SMEs.Rather, they are groomed for staff roles and they should not be placed in a situation where their training is not relevant to their job.The screw-ups have come too soon too often.We cannot afford it.

  • SingaporeTyrannosaur's Avatar
    6,889 posts since Jan '03
  • Cpl Ho's Avatar
    178 posts since Oct '04
    • Officer Arrow brain of the army
      NCOs Arrow heart of the army
      Corporals Arrow backbone of the army Smile without us, the army will collapse... Razz

      Edited by Cpl Ho 10 Oct `04, 8:04AM
  • beavan's Avatar
    3,923 posts since May '04
    • Originally posted by Cpl Ho:
      Officer Arrow brain of the army
      NCOs Arrow heart of the army
      Corporals Arrow backbone of the army Smile without us, the army will collapse... Razz

      conclusion: the army needs us all Mr. Green

  • deathscythe99's Avatar
    15,514 posts since Apr '04
  • Gordonator's Avatar
    43,270 posts since Jul '04
    • Originally posted by Cpl Ho:
      Officer Arrow brain of the army
      NCOs Arrow heart of the army
      Corporals Arrow backbone of the army Smile without us, the army will collapse... Razz

      i thought specialists are the backbone of the army. Wink

      CPLs and below are more like blood of the army. Mr. Green we run throught the whole body.

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