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DTL rationalisation speculations

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  • AJQZC's Avatar
    1,021 posts since Sep '08
    • ===========================================

      Welcome to the DTL rationalisation thread.

      Feel free to discuss all news, suggestions and speculations with regards to bus service / bus stop amendments with the opening of DTL2 and DTL3.

      ===========================================

      UPDATE, 9 December 2015:

      Press releases for DTL2 opening and first phase of route adjustments are out, please visit this link.

      TL;DR

      Routes affected by DTL2 rationalisation so far (excluding minor bus stop adjustments):

      • 170A, 979, 973* (new)
      • 173, 983 (amendment / extension)
      • 563 (withdrawn)

      ===========================================

      UPDATE, 26 September 2017:

      Press releases for DTL3 opening and route introductions / amendments are out, please visit this link.

      TL;DR

      Routes affected by DTL3 rationalisation so far:

      • 137, 298 (new)
      • 18, 20, 118, 293 (amendment)

      ===========================================

      (2015)

      Seeing as to how

      - Downtown Line Stage 2 (DTL2) is entering service in a year or so, and

      - there still isn't a specific thread dedicated to discussing (possible) bus rationalisation when the line opens, despite numerous discussions in other miscellanous threads,

      I thought I would start this one just to have a common place for our ideas and speculations. icon_wink.gif

      ===========================================

      DTL2 & 1 stations   (in operation):

      • DT1 xx BP6 Bt Panjang
      • DT2 Cashew
      • DT3 Hillview
      • DT5 Beauty World
      • DT6 King Albert Park
      • DT7 Sixth Ave
      • DT8 Tan Kah Kee
      • DT9 / CC19 Botanic Gardens
      • DT10 / TE11 Stevens
      • DT11 xx NS21 Newton
      • DT12 / NE7 Little India
      • DT13 Rochor      [In close proximity to DT22 Jalan Besar]
      • DT14 / EW12 Bugis
      • DT15 / CC4 Promenade
      • DT16 / CE1 Bayfront
      • DT17 Downtown      [In close proximity to NS27 / CE2 Marina Bay]
      • DT18 Telok Ayer      [In close proximity to NS26 / EW14 Raffles Place]
      • DT19 / NE4 Chinatown

      DTL3 stations   (opening Saturday, 21 Oct 2017):

      • DT20 Fort Canning
      • DT21 Bencoolen      [In close proximity to CC2 Bras Basah]
      • DT22 Jalan Besar         [In close proximity to DT13 Rochor]
      • DT23 Bendeemer
      • DT24 Geylang Bahru
      • DT25 Mattar
      • DT26 / CC10 MacPherson
      • DT27 Ubi
      • DT28 Kaki Bukit
      • DT29 Bedok North
      • DT30 Bedok Reservoir
      • DT31 Tampines West
      • DT32 xx EW2 Tampines
      • DT33 Tampines East
      • DT34 Upper Changi
      • DT35 / CG1 Expo

      DTL4 stations   (opening c. 2025):

      • DT36 Xilin
      • DT37 / TE31 Sungei Bedok

      ===========================================

       

        Edited by AJQZC 26 Sep `17, 8:10PM
    • AJQZC's Avatar
      1,021 posts since Sep '08
      • ------------------------------------------

        Here I'll just list the services with various degrees of route duplication with DTL2. This list is just my own interpretation from the maps. The full extent to which these services are affected will only be clear after DTL2 opening, of course.

        Also, some services may be adjusted to serve nearby DTL stations, and new bus stops may be erected for this purpose.

         

        Heavy duplication (with possibility of major route change or removal):

        • 66 (8 stops; Beauty World - Little India)
        • 67 (11 stops; BPJ - Little India)
        • 170 (12 stops; BPJ - Rochor)
        • 171 (10 stops; BPJ - Newton, continues down NSL / Orchard Rd & CCL)
        • 960 (7 stops; BPJ, Stevens - Bugis, then Esplanade & Promenade)
        • 961 (7 stops; BPJ - TKK)

        Significant duplication / Express services (some sectors following / parallel to the line, may undergo major or minor changes):

        • 48 (6 stops; Botanic Gardens - Bugis)
        • 970 (6 stops; BPJ - Sixth Ave)
        • 190, 700, 971E, 972, NR3 (Orchard Rd services, direct express between BTP & Stevens)

        Other services (plying close routes parallel to or bisecting DTL2, should mostly be unchanged but may be slightly altered if above services are amended, or to serve the newly opened stations nearby):

        • 187, 963, 966
        • 75, 178, 184
        • 41, 52, 61, 173, 985
        • 74, 151, 154, 157, 174 
        • 563, 852
        • 93, 165, 855
        • 105, 132, 153, 156, 186
        • 56, 57, 130, 131, 166, 851, 980

        Do discuss and criticise. icon_razz.gif
        Edited by AJQZC 17 Jun `17, 10:34AM
    • SMB128B's Avatar
      4,965 posts since May '11
      • You can kiss goodbye to this thread

        LTA will not do anything rationalisation.

        Period. Kthxbye

    • AJQZC's Avatar
      1,021 posts since Sep '08
      • --.--

        Rationalisation is about the optimisation of bus routes to complement new MRT lines. Don't be scared by the word, or by the drastic actions LTA did after NEL opening, that was just mass route deletion and an excuse for more west-side bus services to terminate at the CBD.

        At least CCL didn't have many services duplicating most of its route, itself being a medium capacity line. But some services (such as 93) did get fleet cuts.

        For DTL2, at least 171 will definitely be affected. The route is too long (34+ km) and roundabout.

        Edited by AJQZC 14 Jul `15, 2:17PM
    • TPS Timothy Mok's Avatar
      1,144 posts since Aug '07
      • Originally posted by AJQZC:

        ------------------------------------------

        Here I'll just list the services with various degrees of route duplication with DTL2. This list is just my own interpretation from the maps. The full extent to which these services are affected will only be clear after DTL2 opening, of course.

        Also, some services may be adjusted to serve nearby DTL stations, and new bus stops may be erected for this purpose.

         

        Heavy duplication (with possibility of major route change or removal):

        • 66 (8 stops; Beauty World - Little India)
        • 67 (11 stops; BTP - Little India)
        • 170 (12 stops; BTP - Rochor)
        • 171 (10 stops; BTP - Newton, continues down NSL / Orchard Rd & CCL)
        • 960 (7 stops; BTP, Stevens - Bugis, then Esplanade & Promenade)
        • 961 (7 stops; BTP - TKK)

        Significant duplication / Express services (some sectors following / parallel to the line, may undergo major or minor changes):

        • 48 (6 stops; Botanic Gardens - Bugis)
        • 970 (6 stops; BTP - Sixth Ave)
        • 190, 700, 971E, 972, NR3 (Orchard Rd services, direct express between BTP & Stevens)

        Other services (plying close routes parallel to or bisecting DTL2, should mostly be unchanged but may be slightly altered if above services are amended, or to serve the newly opened stations nearby):

        • 187, 963, 966
        • 75, 178, 184
        • 41, 52, 61, 173, 985
        • 74, 151, 154, 157, 174 
        • 563, 852
        • 93, 165, 855
        • 105, 132, 153, 156, 186
        • 56, 57, 130, 131, 166, 851, 980

        Do discuss and criticise. icon_razz.gif


        You can only change 64 (by removing all DD), 65 (by removing some DD) and 107 (by removing all DD) that's all, a way becos of 66, 67 and 960 becoming DD. 48 will become more versatile due to Tanjong Katong Road South, forcing the load to channel off from 48 to spread constant load. The Little India bus service one of the cause of riots will therefore be removed. PLS remove all the complaints that made by Shawn Ong and allow us to unblock.

    • TPS Timothy Mok's Avatar
      1,144 posts since Aug '07
      • I think 67 can just throw away all bendies and move over to Sungei Seletar or Bedok North. The nearest depot I can think of is Bedok North, not go far far away to Ang Mo Kio. I am sure all bus operators never think of the ideal location.

    • carbikebus's Avatar
      20,285 posts since Nov '03
      • Later Bedok North also replaced by Changi mega Depot..Ang Mo Kio also gone already..

        What i can think is 66 & 67 Jurong East loops at Lavender if they keesiao dun wanna duplicate rail lines..Only those express/Premium svc will follow 80% of rail lines.

    • JurongWestresident's Avatar
      638 posts since May '14
      • I do not think within the first three months of opening of Downtown Line MRT, there would be (significant) changes to bus routes because of the opening of the MRT.

        We have to collect data and determine which are the connections that may no longer need bus connections, or the demand is no longer that strong as today. Thereafter, if feasible, make changes to certain bus routes.

        I am sure we all have an idea of which bus routes may be affected. The alignment of Downtown Line has duplicated many bus routes, especially a few. Nonetheless, we should wait and see how travel patterns and loadings on the buses change when Downtown Line opens, before we make any changes. 

        Any decision made should be well-informed. #justsaying

    • carbikebus's Avatar
      20,285 posts since Nov '03
      • I think LTA wont cut bus service,The most they amend or cut short the route..The high loading sectors i am pretty sure wont be chopped off..

    • TPS Timothy Mok's Avatar
      1,144 posts since Aug '07
      • Originally posted by carbikebus:

        Later Bedok North also replaced by Changi mega Depot..Ang Mo Kio also gone already..

        What i can think is 66 & 67 Jurong East loops at Lavender if they keesiao dun wanna duplicate rail lines..Only those express/Premium svc will follow 80% of rail lines.


        I suggest can break 67 up.

    • Gus.chong's Avatar
      9,828 posts since Jun '10
      • Originally posted by AJQZC:

        ------------------------------------------

        Here I'll just list the services with various degrees of route duplication with DTL2. This list is just my own interpretation from the maps. The full extent to which these services are affected will only be clear after DTL2 opening, of course.

        Also, some services may be adjusted to serve nearby DTL stations, and new bus stops may be erected for this purpose.

         

        Heavy duplication (with possibility of major route change or removal):

        • 66 (8 stops; Beauty World - Little India)
        • 67 (11 stops; BTP - Little India)
        • 170 (12 stops; BTP - Rochor)
        • 171 (10 stops; BTP - Newton, continues down NSL / Orchard Rd & CCL)
        • 960 (7 stops; BTP, Stevens - Bugis, then Esplanade & Promenade)
        • 961 (7 stops; BTP - TKK)

        Significant duplication / Express services (some sectors following / parallel to the line, may undergo major or minor changes):

        • 48 (6 stops; Botanic Gardens - Bugis)
        • 970 (6 stops; BTP - Sixth Ave)
        • 190, 700, 971E, 972, NR3 (Orchard Rd services, direct express between BTP & Stevens)

        Other services (plying close routes parallel to or bisecting DTL2, should mostly be unchanged but may be slightly altered if above services are amended, or to serve the newly opened stations nearby):

        • 187, 963, 966
        • 75, 178, 184
        • 41, 52, 61, 173, 985
        • 74, 151, 154, 157, 174 
        • 563, 852
        • 93, 165, 855
        • 105, 132, 153, 156, 186
        • 56, 57, 130, 131, 166, 851, 980

        Do discuss and criticise. icon_razz.gif

        I doubt that 170 will be changed in anyway...it has been the direct bus service from Queen Street to Woodlands/Johor Bahru by using the direct roads in Bukit Timah area for 90 years or so...

        But it occurs to me that 48/66/67/170/171/700/960 are somewhat using the same route along Bukit Timah area for at least 10 years or more and it has never been amended in ways to reduce duplication...

    • carbikebus's Avatar
      20,285 posts since Nov '03
      • 48 wont be amended i guarantee that,66/67 most probably would end up at Eunos and Lor 1 Geylang respectively

    • carbikebus's Avatar
      20,285 posts since Nov '03
    • BusAnalayzer's Avatar
      10,429 posts since May '12
      • Originally posted by AJQZC:

        Seeing as to how

        - Downtown Line Stage 2 (DTL2) is entering service in a year or so, and

        - there still isn't a specific thread dedicated to discussing (possible) bus rationalisation when the line opens, despite numerous discussions in other miscellanous threads,

        I thought I would start this one just to have a common place for our ideas and speculations. icon_wink.gif

        DTL2 stations:

        • DT1 / BP6 Bt Panjang (BTP)
        • DT2 Cashew
        • DT3 Hillview
        • DT5 Beauty World
        • DT6 King Albert Park (KAP)
        • DT7 Sixth Ave
        • DT8 Tan Kah Kee (TKK)
        • DT9 / CC19 Botanic Gardens
        • DT10 / TE11 Stevens
        • DT11 / NS21 Newton
        • DT12 / NE7 Little India
        • DT13 Rochor

        There was one before, but it died after some 50 posts

    • BusAnalayzer's Avatar
      10,429 posts since May '12
      • To me not many services will be rationalised. There will be a wait and watch period.

        My recommendations:

        171 should ply from Yishun to Bukit Batok via Hillview Ave instead

        67 should ply between Tampines looping @ Middle road, where sv 56 plies (operated by SBST with majority DD fleet)

        867 will be the 67 from CCK Interchange looping / Lor 1 Geylang (this can now be full fleet SD)

        Don't touch 65/66. 65 should continue to be majority DD but can have few SDs in its fleet. 64 can do away with its DDs. 66 can have few peak hour DDs. 

        961/970 should remain

        Likewise I dont see loading on 190/960/972 reducing majorly. Still will continue to have majority DD fleet

        700 will become full fleet SD as load will drop

        No change to sv 48 as well. 

    • carbikebus's Avatar
      20,285 posts since Nov '03
    • lemon1974's Avatar
      9,342 posts since Dec '04
      • Before circle line open, ppl also speculate sv 70/93 n some other services will be remove.  N now sv70 even got fleet add/upgrade despite running almost parallel to the circle line. They won't be removing or cut short any services right now. Slight amendment to go to the station is possible but it seem like the station are situation along main roads already so not much amendment also.  The most if demand drop they will reduce the frequency or deploy SD but will not remove completely. 

    • BusAnalayzer's Avatar
      10,429 posts since May '12
      • Originally posted by carbikebus:

        Dont you think CCK loop at Lor 1 is too long?

        Didn't say its loop. Put 867 as CCK / Lor 1. Will terminate at both ends.

    • BusAnalayzer's Avatar
      10,429 posts since May '12
      • Originally posted by lemon1974:

        Before circle line open, ppl also speculate sv 70/93 n some other services will be remove.  N now sv70 even got fleet add/upgrade despite running almost parallel to the circle line. They won't be removing or cut short any services right now. Slight amendment to go to the station is possible but it seem like the station are situation along main roads already so not much amendment also.  The most if demand drop they will reduce the frequency or deploy SD but will not remove completely. 

        Agreed. But let me correct you on sv 70. The buses got added / upgrades were done due to the NEX / Seletar Hills sector where new HDBs were completed and there was a sudden surge in loading.

        Even now, sv 70 gets 80+ pax in AM towards NEX... between NEX and Guillemard road, loading is around 30-50 pax.. not more.. again loading picks up at Guillemard road for Shenton Way / CBD where you again see DDs get full. 

        So 70 not really mimicks CCL except for the middle part of its route, which is the lowest loading point for the service. 

        93 did lose its DDs after CCL. Similarly 165 lost its high loading after CCL. Before CCL, 165 was a super high loading service. So services are bound to get affected.

        I don't think LTA will directly cut services but some like 171 that do not have huge loading today might get truncated. Also some services might get few downgrades.

    • wsy1234's Avatar
      1,610 posts since Aug '07
      • 67 and 66 bus service merging together and coming year cut to bedok due to DTL3 open in tampines or both service remove. 171 cut back to Bt Batok. 190, 700, 971E, 972, will reduce to only one or two express service. 960 and 961 will withdraw. but come to think the DTL is operated by sbst so LTA will not doing anything so that there is pressure for sbst to make the line work properly or else lost customers to smrt bus.

    • SMB42P's Avatar
      5,320 posts since Jan '12
      • Originally posted by wsy1234:

        67 and 66 bus service merging together and coming year cut to bedok due to DTL3 open in tampines or both service remove. 171 cut back to Bt Batok. 190, 700, 971E, 972, will reduce to only one or two express service. 960 and 961 will withdraw. but come to think the DTL is operated by sbst so LTA will not doing anything so that there is pressure for sbst to make the line work properly or else lost customers to smrt bus.

        other svc idk..but definitely not 190..dun forget its the ONLY basic service to town at CCK...

    • array88's Avatar
      1,396 posts since May '14
      • Originally posted by wsy1234:

        67 and 66 bus service merging together and coming year cut to bedok due to DTL3 open in tampines or both service remove. 171 cut back to Bt Batok. 190, 700, 971E, 972, will reduce to only one or two express service. 960 and 961 will withdraw. but come to think the DTL is operated by sbst so LTA will not doing anything so that there is pressure for sbst to make the line work properly or else lost customers to smrt bus.


        I would not like to see sv 67 cut short to Bedok... Currently the bus stop at Bedok MRT outside Bedok Mall is always crowded, and all services have a lot of pax boarding here. You can see a lot of people taking sv 28 and 67 towards Bedok North Ave 3 (although I'm not really sure where they're alighting), where you can see bendies on 67 packed to the door and people cannot board. If sv 67 is removed, I don't know how sv 28 alone can handle that... While a lot of other services from Bedok Int also go to Ave 3, I don't know why many people still choose 28 and 67 (maybe for convenience?).

        Meanwhile, sv 67 is still the most convenient service for a lot of Bedok North residents to go to Geylang, Little India etc. Although DTL may be faster, there will be people who do not want to make so many transfers and walk for a long distance, and as long as DTL3 only calls at Jalan Besar (which is sadly not an interchange), there will be people who don't want to walk from there... And once again, you cannot force everyone to board the tiny 3-car trains on DTL.

        (Correct me if I'm wrong)

    • BusAnalayzer's Avatar
      10,429 posts since May '12
      • Originally posted by wsy1234:

        67 and 66 bus service merging together and coming year cut to bedok due to DTL3 open in tampines or both service remove. 171 cut back to Bt Batok. 190, 700, 971E, 972, will reduce to only one or two express service. 960 and 961 will withdraw. but come to think the DTL is operated by sbst so LTA will not doing anything so that there is pressure for sbst to make the line work properly or else lost customers to smrt bus.

        how can you merge 66 and 67?? they have different routes from Little India towards Bedok/Tampines? 66 still can be cut because of 65 and 228 but 67 is unique and needs to remain.

        As earlier proposed, 67 can be split into two services: Tampines - Middle road, and CCK - Lor 1.

    • BusAnalayzer's Avatar
      10,429 posts since May '12
      • Originally posted by array88:


        I would not like to see sv 67 cut short to Bedok... Currently the bus stop at Bedok MRT outside Bedok Mall is always crowded, and all services have a lot of pax boarding here. You can see a lot of people taking sv 28 and 67 towards Bedok North Ave 3 (although I'm not really sure where they're alighting), where you can see bendies on 67 packed to the door and people cannot board. If sv 67 is removed, I don't know how sv 28 alone can handle that... While a lot of other services from Bedok Int also go to Ave 3, I don't know why many people still choose 28 and 67 (maybe for convenience?).

        Meanwhile, sv 67 is still the most convenient service for a lot of Bedok North residents to go to Geylang, Little India etc. Although DTL may be faster, there will be people who do not want to make so many transfers and walk for a long distance, and as long as DTL3 only calls at Jalan Besar (which is sadly not an interchange), there will be people who don't want to walk from there... And once again, you cannot force everyone to board the tiny 3-car trains on DTL.

        (Correct me if I'm wrong)

        I agree with what you have said. 

    • carbikebus's Avatar
      20,285 posts since Nov '03
      • 171 i agree can cut to Bt Batok but pls dont touch 190,700,960 or 972..Its an alternative..Can cut buses

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