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Bus Contracting Model (part 2)

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  • sgbuses's Avatar
    2,363 posts since Nov '05
    • Originally posted by CZT:

      Hmmm could u explain what u mean by the 2nd para on LTA not understanding the route? And do help me explain to gekpohboy that why 170 shldnt be shortened to JB CIQ, even the Larkin stretch is redundant, due to loss in cost of operations. Thanks. I realise my explainations are flawed :(

      There's a reason why these odd terminals exist. I am not going to save the legwork and man-hours of rival operators by explaining what is going on.\

      If TT is going to force me to switch to Causeway Link for my cross-border journeys, they will have to put in the effort to earn this right.

  • iveco's Avatar
    17,123 posts since Mar '04
    • Originally posted by sgbuses:

      Causeway Link still pocket their fares. Every less ringgit paid riding 170 is every extra ringgit Causeway Link earns. They have more incentive than a GCM operator...

      LTA has no understanding how 170 works in reality.

      The nature of these routes are logical. I am supportive of SBS Transit holding onto these routes, so I am not going to give away anything that give other rivals a chance.

      Logically speaking, all JB routes (160/170/950) are better off under CCK package (Gali Batu depot). If BPJ has space, it would be good if 170X could layover there.

  • gekpohboy's Avatar
    2,180 posts since Mar '16
    • Originally posted by CZT:

      Hmmm could u explain what u mean by the 2nd para on LTA not understanding the route? And do help me explain to gekpohboy that why 170 shldnt be shortened to JB CIQ, even the Larkin stretch is redundant, due to loss in cost of operations. Thanks. I realise my explainations are flawed :(

      Try using Microsoft Word to write, and then copy-paste (CTRL + A; CTRL + C at Microsoft Word)(Ctrl + V at forum)(use computer to select the text you want to use, if necessary)

      That's my "secret" to writing "long" articles.

      I notice it is very hard to write at the forum itself.

      The text by default is Times New Roman, and the layout of the forums do not encourage "long" messages, which actually restricts thinking.

      Maybe that's why you find it hard to express yourself.

      Anyway, rest assured. Your explanations are not flawed. I understand the articles you write, and I had made it a point to respond to every point that you made in the articles.

    • Originally posted by iveco:

      Logically speaking, all JB routes (160/170/950) are better off under CCK package (Gali Batu depot). If BPJ has space, it would be good if 170X could layover there.

      Okay. Thanks.

      Edited by gekpohboy 02 May `17, 9:05AM
    • Originally posted by sgbuses:

      There's a reason why these odd terminals exist. I am not going to save the legwork and man-hours of rival operators by explaining what is going on.\

      If TT is going to force me to switch to Causeway Link for my cross-border journeys, they will have to put in the effort to earn this right.

      Okay. Thanks.

      Edited by gekpohboy 02 May `17, 2:36AM
    • Originally posted by TIB 585L:


      waited for 911 for 40 mins and 3 911E came instead. All stuck in jam. Around 3 911 was stuck when i left Woodlands Centre Rd

      If my guess is correct, the traffic jam is due to the long weekend from 28 April to 1 May.

      The road works near Woodlands Checkpoint have been around for many months now. Had similar encounters previously, but the jam is not that bad as what was described in this forum.

      The traffic jam is probably an isolated case, as many people use the causeway during the long weekend.

      Now that the long weekend is over, the congestion problem should be resolved.

      Edited by gekpohboy 02 May `17, 2:52AM
    • Originally posted by iveco:

      So soon? wasn't it meant to run until 9-18? Anyway, if SBST win i think they should sit out of Hougang altogether. we need the 50% mileage rule just like Perth does. no singular operator should ever have a majority of the market share.

      The first package was probably given to Tower Transit because they want a new operator.

      The second package onwards was probably given to the lowest bid, that's why Go-Ahead and SBS Transit won the second and third contracts respectively.

      Now that the second and third contracts are awarded to the lowest bid, the competition will heat up, as the contestants will all price their bids as low as possible.

      But looking at the bids submitted in the third tender, where companies may start to lower the asking price after the second tender was awarded to the lowest bid, I do not think there would be much changes to the asking price.

      Those that asked for high price would continue to ask for high price, while those that ask for low price would continue to ask for low price.

      Unless companies like Woodlands Transport and Busways lower their bid price, the winners will always be SBS Transit, SMRT or Go-Ahead.

      (Even Tower Transit won't stand a chance. They probably won the first contract because LTA wanted a new operator, and Tower Transit submitted the lowest bid, after SMRT and SBS Transit. Tower Transit should consider lowering their asking price next time when the Bulim package is up for tender again. Otherwise, they may lose the contract.)

      Edited by gekpohboy 02 May `17, 9:37AM
  • SG1695B's Avatar
    4 posts since Apr '17
    • Originally posted by gekpohboy:

      If LTA had this ruling, they would had given 25% of SBST bus routes to SMRT previously, so that both of them had 50% share of the bus routes.

      The first package was probably given to Tower Transit because they want a new operator.

      The second package onwards was probably given to the lowest bid, that's why Go-Ahead and SBS Transit won the second and third contracts respectively.

      Now that the second and third contracts are awarded to the lowest bid, the competition will heat up, as the contestants will all price their bids as low as possible.

      But considering the bids submitted in the second and third tenders are about the same, I don't think the asking price will change very much.

      Unless the companies like Woodlands Transport and Busways lower their bid price, the winners will always be SBS Transit, SMRT or Go-Ahead.

      (Even Tower Transit won't stand a chance. Tower Transit should consider lowering their asking price next time when the Bulim package is up for tender again. Otherwise, they may lose the contract.)

      SBS could submit the lowest bid because they could spend least $$ for the transition into the new contract, which is not fair to anyone else even Woodlands or SMRT. Even SBS might get SG1695B back with the existing interior colours do not need to change.

      GCM is dying. Anyone except SBS themselves should not bid for the 4th package.

  • gekpohboy's Avatar
    2,180 posts since Mar '16
    • Originally posted by SG1695B:

      SBS could submit the lowest bid because they could spend least $$ for the transition into the new contract, which is not fair to anyone else even Woodlands or SMRT. Even SBS might get SG1695B back with the existing interior colours do not need to change.

      GCM is dying. Anyone except SBS themselves should not bid for the 4th package.

      Remember that time when the tender was called for the Bulim Bus Package?

      SMRT submitted the lowest bid.

      Edited by gekpohboy 02 May `17, 8:42AM
  • lemon1974's Avatar
    9,400 posts since Dec '04
    • Originally posted by SG1695B:

      SBS could submit the lowest bid because they could spend least $$ for the transition into the new contract, which is not fair to anyone else even Woodlands or SMRT. Even SBS might get SG1695B back with the existing interior colours do not need to change.

      GCM is dying. Anyone except SBS themselves should not bid for the 4th package.

      so u would rather let LTA award the contract to Woodland TPT with a bid price of 100 million dollars more? so how much increase in the fare you are willing to pay? LTA already foresee they would lose lot of money IN  BCM and passengers are not willing to pay higher fares also...

  • gekpohboy's Avatar
    2,180 posts since Mar '16
    • Actually, they could have just cut the Long routes, and replace everything with just Feeder routes, between the Residential areas and the MRT stations, and let the MRT provide the Long Distance Travel. This would reduce the cost of operating bus services.

  • lemon1974's Avatar
    9,400 posts since Dec '04
    • Originally posted by sgbuses:

      SBS Transit's loss (if it occurs) will be Causeway Link's gain.

      They have plenty of buses to redeploy from Kuala Lumpur to pick up anyone stranded at the checkpoint while the new operator struggles to figure out how 160/170/170X really works.

      there is a limit on the number of cross border buses from SG/MY.. it is limited to 150 buses each right now.CW is already running at full capacity and they have asked LTA for permission to increae the number of buses. and so far LTA have not given approval based on a recent report on 20/4 in malaysia newspaper..... so CW might be able to deploy empty buses to pick up from JB custom to larkin, but they cant do so for those SG bound buses..

  • gekpohboy's Avatar
    2,180 posts since Mar '16
    • Hey, thanks for the sharing. I didn't know that each company is only allowed to run up to 150 buses across the border everyday.

      If that's the case, why they put 160 and 170 together, instead of put them at different operators?

      If every bus service has 150 buses to run, actually this would increase the capacity significantly, and bus service will surely improve.

      However, the problem is that this may worsen the traffic congestion problem already on the Causeway and around Woodlands Checkpoint, because more buses means more traffic, and if the traffic management don't improve, actually it's gonna worsen the situation, instead of improve it.

  • SG1695B's Avatar
    4 posts since Apr '17
    • Originally posted by gekpohboy:

      Remember that time when the tender was called for the Bulim Bus Package?

      SMRT submitted the lowest bid.

      Yes, however, they were not picked to be the winner. The Authority was very careful for the first time, and might want higher level of services than ex Bukit Batok operating. Can't complain.

    • Originally posted by lemon1974:

      so u would rather let LTA award the contract to Woodland TPT with a bid price of 100 million dollars more? so how much increase in the fare you are willing to pay? LTA already foresee they would lose lot of money IN  BCM and passengers are not willing to pay higher fares also...

      No need to be 100 million more. At least first two packages are kind of fair to avoid advantages of the current operator can save money on transferring operating from one operator to the other.

      Even they did not pick up someone who said they can run it with 1/7 of management costs.

      http://www.wenxinbashi.com/news_main.asp?id=1858

      谈及岛城公交企业参与此次竞标的优势时,曲国庆认为“国内公交的运行成本低也非常关键。”据曲国庆介绍,发达国家一个公交运营管理团队一年的费用至少要在200万美元以上,而国内公交运营团队则只需要100~200万元人民币。另外,维修保养等人工成本费用也将大大低于欧美国家。

  • lemon1974's Avatar
    9,400 posts since Dec '04
    • Originally posted by SG1695B:

      No need to be 100 million more. At least first two packages are kind of fair to avoid advantages of the current operator can save money on transferring operating from one operator to the other.

      Even they did not pick up someone who said they can run it with 1/7 of management costs.

      http://www.wenxinbashi.com/news_main.asp?id=1858

      谈及岛城公交企业参与此次竞标的优势时,曲国庆认为“国内公交的运行成本低也非常关键。”据曲国庆介绍,发达国家一个公交运营管理团队一年的费用至少要在200万美元以上,而国内公交运营团队则只需要100~200万元人民币。另外,维修保养等人工成本费用也将大大低于欧美国家。

      did u interpret wrongly? that msg is saying the cost of running a team in china is RMB1-2 million.. while the cost of running the same team in developed country is US$2 million.. so the cost of running the management team in singapore definitely wont be just RMB1-2 million per year. u cant compare china salary to singapre salary.. 

  • carbikebus's Avatar
    20,592 posts since Nov '03
    • Just carry on with 4 Operators better.

      Edited by carbikebus 02 May `17, 6:57PM
    • I would like to see this happen if they wish to eliminate the BCM.

      Marina South/New Bridge Rd/Queen St/Shenton Way/Harbourfront & Bt Merah:SBS Transit.

      Buona Vista/Kent Ridge/Clementi/Ghim Moh:SMRT Buses.

      Jurong East/Bt Batok:SBS Transit.

      Boon Lay/Tuas/Joo Koon:Tower Transit Singapore.

      Choa Chu Kang/Gali Batu/Bt Panjang:Go-Ahead Singapore.

      Woodlands/Woodlands North:SBS Transit.

      Sembawang/Yishun:Tower Transit Singapore.

      Ang Mo Kio/Yio Chu Kang:SMRT Buses.

      Bishan/Toa Payoh/St Michaels:SBS Transit.

      Changi Airport/Changi Village/Pasir Ris/Tampines North:Tower Transit Singapore.

      Tampines/Tampines Concourse/Changi Business Park:SBS Transit.

      Bedok/Upp East Coast:Go-Ahead Singapore.

      Punggol/Sengkang:SMRT Buses.

      Hougang/Buangkok/Serangoon Central:Go-Ahead Singapore.

      Eunos/Sims Place/Lor 1 Geylang/Bidadari:SBS Transit.

       

      Edited by carbikebus 02 May `17, 9:22PM
  • sgbuses's Avatar
    2,363 posts since Nov '05
    • Originally posted by SG1695B:

      Yes, however, they were not picked to be the winner. The Authority was very careful for the first time, and might want higher level of services than ex Bukit Batok operating. Can't complain.

      Yes. LTA decided to pay a significantly better rate to TTS as compared to the later packages.

      I'll repeat this again: http://sgforums.com/forums/1279/topics/492198?page=61#post_11225441

    • Originally posted by lemon1974:

      there is a limit on the number of cross border buses from SG/MY.. it is limited to 150 buses each right now.CW is already running at full capacity and they have asked LTA for permission to increae the number of buses. and so far LTA have not given approval based on a recent report on 20/4 in malaysia newspaper..... so CW might be able to deploy empty buses to pick up from JB custom to larkin, but they cant do so for those SG bound buses..

      Once enough people walk across the causeway in the morning to be noticed, LTA will increase that quota.

      In any case, Causeway Link still has room to increase the capacity with its 150 existing buses...but I will not give away how.

  • lemon1974's Avatar
    9,400 posts since Dec '04
    • Originally posted by sgbuses:

      Once enough people walk across the causeway in the morning to be noticed, LTA will increase that quota.

      In any case, Causeway Link still has room to increase the capacity with its 150 existing buses...but I will not give away how.

      there are already so many people walking across the causeway every morning/evening..  LTA wont be bother about it.. cos all the buses are jammed along the causeway.. so u add more buses also no use.. cos if u walk, u take 20 mins to reach counter from JB CIQ. if u take buses, u can stuck one hour in the bus for the bus to reach Woodland Checkpoint from JB CIQ. 

      add so many buses also no use, when the immigration counters cant take in the number of ppl arriving together. and when the bus checkpoint take their own sweet time to do the clearance for each bus...

      wait until ICA improve their clearance process (esp their automatic clearance system are still alway down and often have to restart). 

      the 150 buses for CW is definitely not enough, if u see the complains posted by ppl taking CW3/4/6. and right now a lot of CW buses are already doing u-turn at JB custom. 

  • gekpohboy's Avatar
    2,180 posts since Mar '16
    • Originally posted by lemon1974:

      there are already so many people walking across the causeway every morning/evening..  LTA wont be bother about it.. cos all the buses are jammed along the causeway.. so u add more buses also no use.. cos if u walk, u take 20 mins to reach counter from JB CIQ. if u take buses, u can stuck one hour in the bus for the bus to reach Woodland Checkpoint from JB CIQ. 

      add so many buses also no use, when the immigration counters cant take in the number of ppl arriving together. and when the bus checkpoint take their own sweet time to do the clearance for each bus...

      wait until ICA improve their clearance process (esp their automatic clearance system are still alway down and often have to restart). 

      the 150 buses for CW is definitely not enough, if u see the complains posted by ppl taking CW3/4/6. and right now a lot of CW buses are already doing u-turn at JB custom. 

      I would like to clarify, is the 150 buses for the bus company, or every individual bus route?

      Also, where is the source, that says that each bus company (or bus route) can only use up to 150 buses?

      Edited by gekpohboy 03 May `17, 11:30AM
  • lemon1974's Avatar
    9,400 posts since Dec '04
    • Originally posted by gekpohboy:

      I would like to clarify, is the 150 buses for the bus company, or every individual bus route?

      Also, where is the source, that says that each bus company (or bus route) can only use up to 150 buses?

      150 buses from SG and 150 buses from MY.....

      go google lah..

  • SG1695B's Avatar
    4 posts since Apr '17
    • Originally posted by lemon1974:

      did u interpret wrongly? that msg is saying the cost of running a team in china is RMB1-2 million.. while the cost of running the same team in developed country is US$2 million.. so the cost of running the management team in singapore definitely wont be just RMB1-2 million per year. u cant compare china salary to singapre salary.. 

      Hi lemon1974, 

      Probably I interpreted wrong. It sounds like their advantage is they will save money on management by paying their management team at Chinese salary rate, so they can tender for a low price. I was assuming they only need to hire some local to count coins, whom might earn even higher than an admin staff located in China (say, 1500SGD to 7500RMB).

      Even by cutting the price to extremely low, they will still be higher than current operators. Because they have to reprint station posters, pay for new Macdonald style uniforms and Free Lunch on Depot open day. That will keep newcomers out of the game.

      Thanks.

  • carbikebus's Avatar
    20,592 posts since Nov '03
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