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Declaration of Mental Condition at SAF MMI

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  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Hello everyone, I have some questions here.

      I'm a PES E clerk, and have some medical conditions which I did not declare during my medical check-up and CMPB. I suffer from bipolar depression, anxiety disorder and ADHD. The reason why I didn't declare then is because I didn't want to jeopardise my own future, as I'm paranoid about medical records being visible to the government bodies and stat boards when I try to apply for a job next time. I just thought that perhaps I can survive 2 years of NS successfully since I'm already blessed with a PES E for other physical conditions.

      However, as time went by, my conditions started to surface and I realised that it's getting harder for me to hide them, as I'm starting to feel really awful from day to day. I shall not delve into details here; I'd just like to say that I think I can't hold out much longer. I know you guys must think I'm really useless. I feel useless too, I can't believe I'm so weak that I can't even stand a clerical, sedentary job.

      I feel scared now everyday; I see sharp objects around all the time and I've got a bad history with them, I think people in the office don't like me, I know I'm just being paranoid but I can't help it. I know I'm paranoid because this isn't the first time. But yet at the same time I know it's true to a certain extent, I know I'm right. I have a record of being missing from school due to long MCs given by my doctor. --doctor's name edited out--

      I have confided in my chief clerk and my LTC about my condition; my LTC seems bent on making me declare my illness, I can see that he's trying to scare me into declaring with the possibility of charging me for malingering or extending my service due to prolonged MC. This is my first MC; it lasts 7 days. I am aware, though, that without my own declaration, they can't really do anything to 'cure' me. I'm not so sure about charging me though.

      I've suffered from my illnesses since 2004. I took half a year off sec 4, one whole year off JC1, restarted my JC 1 year voluntarily, and took a couple of weeks off with tons of accommodations after in JC2.

      I'd like to hear your opinions about my declaration --should I go ahead and declare? I don't want to end up being forcefully hauled into a psychiatric ward by the SAF or anything drastic like that to happen.

      How is the process like? I'm referring to the process of seeing the MO, confessing, going to medical board, getting reviewed and all. Will any good come out of it? Will I be put into the SAF Ward? What if I'm graded PES F?

      I'm so sorry to be taking up your time. I thank you all so, so much for putting effort into reading this, I really appreciate it.

      Thank you so much y'all, really.

       

      Edited by seekingguidance 22 Feb `08, 9:57AM
  • superlibra's Avatar
    703 posts since Mar '05
    • PM our newly appointed moderator, EAC.. he should be able to ans ur questions.. Do take care man..

  • del_co's Avatar
    284 posts since Feb '08
    • dude, your case sounds really serious. firstly, to have mentioned your doctor's name here is kinda...wrong. pardon me if i'm wrong...but i think it's kinda offensive. but that isn't the point i wanna make. i understand your case although i don't suffer such illnesses. i do know of a few people who are like that, but they don't suffer it all. e.g ADHD + depression + blah blah blah.

      dude, the best route is to be treated. you don't wanna be suffering right? from what you are saying, it's really torture man. and hell NO, you are NOT useless. every human being have their own short-comings. those who judge you as useless are either unaware of your medical condition, or are plain assholes. pardon my language, but i take a very strong standpoint on people who judge and bully others. so most importantly is...never ever think of yourself as useless. you did no wrong man!

      i personally feel that you should get help asap. it wouldn't be doing yourself justice if you continue to stay on. my advice is to go get help. all the best dude. God speed.

  • cookiecookie's Avatar
    217 posts since Jan '08
    • If you cannot even function as a clerk in NS, and clerks in NS do not have to do combat or handle weapons, i doubt you will have much of a future handling the stress of being in the civil service in a civilian capacity as well, so you don't have to worry about "jeapardising your possible future of employment". I think you should declare and get yourself treated in NUH's psychiatric department or if you prefer private psychiatric clinics, otherwise if you go bonkers, you may go to the store and take weapons and do a virgin tech in camp.

  • Moderator
    Executive
    eac's Avatar
    3,318 posts since Dec '03
    •  

      firstly, almost nothing will extend ur ns time period, unless u go db squat.

       

      secondly, ur ltc is already willing to provide a listening ear to u, and the most best solution is for u to declare to seek immediate help from the medically trained professional, the mo doctor. when u declare, u be on the track to help while in ns. the mo will prescribe u medicine, note ur case in the medical docket, and refer u to see a saf psychiatrist at mmi, near nuh. u will be reviewed periodically by the camp mo and the psychiatrist.

       

      thirdly, make a trip down to ur medical centre for a consultation to see the mo. u have nothing to lose.

       

      another thing, ur medical record in ns is kept within the mindef/saf, will not be disclosed to external agencies. there is a medical directive for this, unless u urself permit the external agency to seek medical info disclosure from the hq medical corps. whatever jobs u applied for public/private sector, typically there will be a self declaration tick check boxes for medical, legal, bankrupcy...etc. ticking the medical box will not allow the employer to seek hq medical corps for ur medical info without ur prior permission and signature at all. just like disciplinary acts commited in the saf act is not = to the offenses of the civil legal criminal court, unless it is a very major one. minor ones does not count, so in the job application legal declaration box, u should tick the 'no' box

       

       

      please go ahead making a trip down to ur medical centre for a consultation to see the mo. u have nothing to lose.

  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Originally posted by eac:

       

      firstly, almost nothing will extend ur ns time period, unless u go db squat.

      secondly, ur ltc is already willing to provide a listening ear to u, and the most best solution is for u to declare to seek immediate help from the medically trained professional, the mo doctor. when u declare, u be on the track to help while in ns. the mo will prescribe u medicine, note ur case in the medical docket, and refer u to see a saf psychiatrist at mmi, near nuh. u will be reviewed periodically by the camp mo and the psychiatrist.

      thirdly, make a trip down to ur medical centre for a consultation to see the mo. u have nothing to lose.

      another thing, ur medical record in ns is kept within the mindef/saf, will not be disclosed to external agencies. there is a medical directive for this, unless u urself permit the external agency to seek medical info disclosure from the hq medical corps. whatever jobs u applied for public/private sector, typically there will be a self declaration tick check boxes for medical, legal, bankrupcy...etc. ticking the medical box will not allow the employer to seek hq medical corps for ur medical info without ur prior permission and signature at all. just like disciplinary acts commited in the saf act is not = to the offenses of the civil legal criminal court, unless it is a very major one. minor ones does not count, so in the job application legal declaration box, u should tick the 'no' box

      please go ahead making a trip down to ur medical centre for a consultation to see the mo. u have nothing to lose.

      What is the difference between seeing the MMI pdoc and my own pdoc while in NS? I'm always very paranoid about seeing pdocs who are from the 'authorities', be it school or army whatsoever; I've got a huge phobia of seeing them I keep thinking they're out to get me.

      I'm going down to my camp Medical Centre later to endorse my MC; I'll talk to the MO and see how it goes...

      Thank you so much for your fast reply (:

      Edited by seekingguidance 22 Feb `08, 10:18AM
    • Originally posted by cookiecookie:

      If you cannot even function as a clerk in NS, and clerks in NS do not have to do combat or handle weapons, i doubt you will have much of a future handling the stress of being in the civil service in a civilian capacity as well, so you don't have to worry about "jeapardising your possible future of employment". I think you should declare and get yourself treated in NUH's psychiatric department or if you prefer private psychiatric clinics, otherwise if you go bonkers, you may go to the store and take weapons and do a virgin tech in camp.

       

      I think that's really discouraging 'cos I believe it's a problem of not being suited to the environment; I've survived places that somehow allow me to feel at ease and not so uptight about things. My pdoc has personally explained to my previous school admins and my family about my inability to adapt and survive in certain environments, and my ability to flourish in others where people might feel out of place due to how I'm wired. Furthermore I think civil service army-wise is still different from civil service in other government bodies.

      I shan't argue with you further and I hope you won't reciprocate either. Do not suggest that I might go 'bonkers' or do a 'virgin tech in camp' --I think it's really offensive and hurtful and it's usually people like you who contribute to the trigger for such events to happen. Please don't pass judgment on me or others like myself before you know the whole story. I would pray for my illnesses to strike you but that would make me more inconsiderate than you are.

      cookiecookie, this ends here, please.

    • Okay I went to endorse my MC today.

      I feel betrayed 'cos my LTC had told me that talking to the MO about it / asking questions does not equate to declaring, but the MO told me otherwise. The MO asked what my MC was for, and then said that he has to refer me to a SAF psychiatrist for follow-up.

      The MO also said that all my medical records will be available to my future employers --both public and private sector --should they choose to request for them through proper administrative channels. The MO told me that they most definitely will check, because I'm already a PES E, and they'd want to know why I'm graded as such.

      I will be given a non-urgent appointment to see the SAF pdoc in a few weeks; what should I tell him? Is it common for NSFs to go to the MO and complain of depression / stress? Is the SAF pdoc very busy most of the time?

  • Herzog_Zwei's Avatar
    8,208 posts since Jul '06
    • Originally posted by seekingguidance:

      Okay I went to endorse my MC today.

      I feel betrayed 'cos my LTC had told me that talking to the MO about it / asking questions does not equate to declaring, but the MO told me otherwise. The MO asked what my MC was for, and then said that he has to refer me to a SAF psychiatrist for follow-up.

      The MO also said that all my medical records will be available to my future employers --both public and private sector --should they choose to request for them through proper administrative channels. The MO told me that they most definitely will check, because I'm already a PES E, and they'd want to know why I'm graded as such.

      I will be given a non-urgent appointment to see the SAF pdoc in a few weeks; what should I tell him? Is it common for NSFs to go to the MO and complain of depression / stress? Is the SAF pdoc very busy most of the time?


      Your LTC never refer to GOM on medical classification, ignorance doesn't protect him when you make a complain via SAF Psychiatrical  Centre on scaring the heck out a sick soldier. Next, why wasn't your condition mentioned in your pre-enlistment FFI? It is common for NSFs with pre-existing mental medical conditions to report to MO and complain of depression but not stress as your PES status provides very non-stessful environment.

  • Moderator
    Executive
    eac's Avatar
    3,318 posts since Dec '03
    •  

      since u r already in the midst of referral to the saf psychiatrist, then it is for your own good that u should honestly tell him ur problems. i also assumed that ur endorsed mc is related to ur conditions.

       

      yes, it is common for report sick for depression and stress. but the mo will use his observations of your body language, eye contact, speech, tone, symptoms, signs to evaluate ur psychological state and grade u in the psychological scale, and then refer ur case to the saf psychiatrist.

       

      yes, u should continue to see ur own psychiatrist, get a memo/letter/report to show the saf psychiatrist for follow up procedures for ur ns period.

       

      as mentioned, ONLY IF u decided to give ur signatory consent for your potential future employers whether govt/private, upon successfully recruited, for the medical info access, IF and should they want to know.

       

      below is a very common statement in a typical job application form, extracted from the self-declaration section, e.g:

       

      • Have you suffered from any mental illness or any physical illness or disability for which you have received medical treatment? (e.g. diabetes, tuberculosis, epilepsy, asthma, etc.)

       

      •  HAVE YOU PREVIOUSLY SUFFERED OR ARE YOU CURRENTLY SUFFERING FROM ANY ILLNESS, MENTAL DISORDER OR PHYSICAL IMPAIRMENT? (ANY UNDECLARED ILLNESS WILL RENDER YOU INELIGIBLE FOR OUR MEDICAL BENEFITS PROGRAMME) 

       

      Edited by eac 22 Feb `08, 4:11PM
  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:


      Your LTC never refer to GOM on medical classification, ignorance doesn't protect him when you make a complain via SAF Psychiatrical  Centre on scaring the heck out a sick soldier. Next, why wasn't your condition mentioned in your pre-enlistment FFI? It is common for NSFs with pre-existing mental medical conditions to report to MO and complain of depression but not stress as your PES status provides very non-stessful environment.

      Hi, thanks for your reply.

      "Your LTC never refer to GOM on medical classification, ignorance doesn't protect him when you make a complain via SAF Psychiatrical  Centre on scaring the heck out a sick soldier." What do you mean by this?

      What is 'Pre-enlistment FFI'? If you're referring to me not declaring beforehand, it is due to the possibility of jeopardising my own future should I be awarded, say, a PES F, or even if future employers wish to pry into my NS medical records since I'm PES E1L9.

    • Originally posted by eac:

      since u r already in the midst of referral to the saf psychiatrist, then it is for your own good that u should honestly tell him ur problems. i also assumed that ur endorsed mc is related to ur conditions.

      yes, it is common for report sick for depression and stress. but the mo will use his observations of your body language, eye contact, speech, tone, symptoms, signs to evaluate ur psychological state and grade u in the psychological scale, and then refer ur case to the saf psychiatrist.

      yes, u should continue to see ur own psychiatrist, get a memo/letter/report to show the saf psychiatrist for follow up procedures for ur ns period.

      as mentioned, ONLY IF u decided to give ur signatory consent for your potential future employers whether govt/private, upon successfully recruited, for the medical info access, IF and should they want to know.

      below is a very common statement in a typical job application form, extracted from the self-declaration section, e.g:

      • Have you suffered from any mental illness or any physical illness or disability for which you have received medical treatment? (e.g. diabetes, tuberculosis, epilepsy, asthma, etc.)
      •  HAVE YOU PREVIOUSLY SUFFERED OR ARE YOU CURRENTLY SUFFERING FROM ANY ILLNESS, MENTAL DISORDER OR PHYSICAL IMPAIRMENT? (ANY UNDECLARED ILLNESS WILL RENDER YOU INELIGIBLE FOR OUR MEDICAL BENEFITS PROGRAMME) 

      Thank you for your reply, I'm so thankful that the people in this forum are taking me seriously instead of classifying me under some group of kengsters.

      1. Since I'm graded PES E1L9 for my physical disability, am I right to say that my PES status would be due to that and not my mental condition?

      2. Do you mean that future employers will need me to specifically sign to allow them to probe further into my medical history? I am aware of the  self-declaration section in job application forms. Is there another section where I sign to allow them access? Or does signing the self-declaration section indicate some sort of silent approval for them to gain access to my medical records?

      3. What will I take with me after my ORD? Will I be visibly 'marked'?  i.e. a written note on some certificate of sorts.

      I'm really grateful for all of you who are helping me out on this. Thank you so much.

  • Moderator
    Executive
    eac's Avatar
    3,318 posts since Dec '03
    •  

      1) yes, ur current pes reflect ur already declared conditions for the pre-enlistee check up at cmpb.

       

      2) yes, should they want to employ u and want to query more, there should be another form from the HR dept for most established companies. the self declaration box is just to briefly inform the employer of the medical conditions of the employee. similarly, it is like the same procedure to have referrees' reference check ONLY UPON commencement of employment.

       

      3) should a medical board is conducted, there will be a official medical board mc be given to u keep and for ur own reference. should the employer decides to query, the mc can be shown as supporting document.

       

      upon completion of ns, u will be given a certificate of service (cos), it will NOT shown any medical note. unless u get pes f certified by medical board, only then it will show: discharged from ns due to medical.

       

       

       

      for civil service employment, just google a form:

      http://www.ipto.gov.sg/corporate/Downloads/Forms/CS%20Job%20Application%20form.doc

      Edited by eac 22 Feb `08, 6:49PM
  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Originally posted by eac:

      1) yes, ur current pes reflect ur already declared conditions for the pre-enlistee check up at cmpb.

      2) yes, should they want to employ u and want to query more, there should be another form from the HR dept for most established companies. the self declaration box is just to briefly inform the employer of the medical conditions of the employee. similarly, it is like the same procedure to have referrees' reference check ONLY UPON commencement of employment.

      3) should a medical board is conducted, there will be a official medical board mc be given to u keep and for ur own reference. should the employer decides to query, the mc can be shown as supporting document.

      upon completion of ns, u will be given a certificate of service (cos), it will NOT shown any medical note. unless u get pes f certified by medical board, only then it will show: discharged from ns due to medical.

      for civil service employment, just google a form:

      http://www.ipto.gov.sg/corporate/Downloads/Forms/CS%20Job%20Application%20form.doc

      Thank you...

      In the event that I declare outright to SAF that I am not stable, how would I know that the PES E status is not due to my declaration?

      In that case, should future employers enquire about my PES status, can I say that it is due to my physical disability instead of my mental condition which is still a prevalent stigma in our society? You might call me unethical and call me a liar but really, how many of us (referring to people like me) wish to reveal our condition knowing the likely consequences...? Please forgive my intention to cover up...

  • Moderator
    Executive
    eac's Avatar
    3,318 posts since Dec '03
    •  

      if there are enough supporting documents such as memos, letters, specialist reports from ur psychiatrist and the saf psychiatrist, u will be scheduled for a case file pending medical board to regrade ur pes to include the new declared specialist-certified conditions.

       

      ur current pes now is wat u already declared to saf b4. e.g. at cmpb.

       

      pls take note that for almost all companies' application forms, they didnt ask for pes status. they will only ask: ord date, reservist unit, rank, and vocation.

  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Originally posted by eac:

      if there are enough supporting documents such as memos, letters, specialist reports from ur psychiatrist and the saf psychiatrist, u will be scheduled for a case file pending medical board to regrade ur pes to include the new declared specialist-certified conditions.

      ur current pes now is wat u already declared to saf b4. e.g. at cmpb.

      pls take note that for almost all companies' application forms, they didnt ask for pes status. they will only ask: ord date, reservist unit, rank, and vocation.


      Thanks for the information.

      I shall hope then, that the SAF psychiatrist thinks I'm just upset for now due to some superficial issues, and thus not regrade my PES.

      Haha, what if I get upgraded from a PES E? That'd be quite sad, no? Would I need a recourse?

      I always thought the companies would ask for your CoS or something... I know you mentioned that the CoS does not show any medical notes, but  doesn't it show your PES grading?

      firstly, almost nothing will extend ur ns time period, unless u go db squat. <-- Do you mean to say that my NS period will not get extended in the event that I get like a few months' worth of MC by a non-SAF pdoc? My LTC warned me of the possibility of suspecting that I'm malingering/something along those lines, if I take long MCs, and thus that period of time when I'm away will not count as Service.

  • hisoka's Avatar
    37,644 posts since Mar '05
    • Originally posted by seekingguidance:


      Thanks for the information.

      I shall hope then, that the SAF psychiatrist thinks I'm just upset for now due to some superficial issues, and thus not regrade my PES.

      Haha, what if I get upgraded from a PES E? That'd be quite sad, no? Would I need a recourse?

      I always thought the companies would ask for your CoS or something... I know you mentioned that the CoS does not show any medical notes, but  doesn't it show your PES grading?

      firstly, almost nothing will extend ur ns time period, unless u go db squat. <-- Do you mean to say that my NS period will not get extended in the event that I get like a few months' worth of MC by a non-SAF pdoc? My LTC warned me of the possibility of suspecting that I'm malingering/something along those lines, if I take long MCs, and thus that period of time when I'm away will not count as Service.


      if you are suspected and convicted for malingering your ns period will be extended. but that's only if. long periods of mc by itself will not cause extension

  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Originally posted by hisoka:


      if you are suspected and convicted for malingering your ns period will be extended. but that's only if. long periods of mc by itself will not cause extension

      In that case I shouldn't need to worry since my case is genuine... thanks for allaying my fears; I was panicking when I was told that it might happen to me.

  • Moderator
    Executive
    eac's Avatar
    3,318 posts since Dec '03
    • CoS only states:

       

      Rank/Name/NRIC

      NS Length of Service

      Date of Release (ORD)

      Courses attended

      Awards and Merits

      Conduct = One of them: Poor, Satisfactory, Good, Very Good, Outstanding

    • MC regulations:

       

      3 days equal or less = submit to clerk at manpower br directly for mc record system entry

       

      More than 3 days = unit medical centre endorsement, then  submit to clerk at manpower br.

       

      28days att C or,

      84days att B (and excuses) = medical board endorsement.

       

       

      for all GP, polyclinic, hospital.

      Edited by eac 23 Feb `08, 10:38AM
  • Herzog_Zwei's Avatar
    8,208 posts since Jul '06
    • Originally posted by seekingguidance:

      Hi, thanks for your reply.

      "Your LTC never refer to GOM on medical classification, ignorance doesn't protect him when you make a complain via SAF Psychiatrical  Centre on scaring the heck out a sick soldier." What do you mean by this?

      What is 'Pre-enlistment FFI'? If you're referring to me not declaring beforehand, it is due to the possibility of jeopardising my own future should I be awarded, say, a PES F, or even if future employers wish to pry into my NS medical records since I'm PES E1L9.

      If you get to meet your SAF pdoctor, kindly refer to him the incident caused by your LTC to traumatised you. You are still going to jeopardise your own future if you don't report your condition during your FFI as it's a chargeable offence.

  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Hi again everyone, thanks for all your input regarding my case.

      I'm going back to work tomorrow because I do not wish to keep seeing the camp MO to endorse MCs. I have no idea how the SAF MMI referral works --will I be informed through RO or whatsoever about my appointment when it comes around?

  • Fatum's Avatar
    34,549 posts since Aug '05
    • you're already PES E, what more do you want ? ... PES F ? .....

      that's for people with terminal cancer and HIV and the like you know ....

  • BrUtUs's Avatar
    15,021 posts since Apr '03
    • Originally posted by Fatum:

      you're already PES E, what more do you want ? ... PES F ? .....

      that's for people with terminal cancer and HIV and the like you know ....


      ya... tats the lowest can go liao... jz take the pes F slp... if tis sort of pressure cannot take then nx time work gov sector wun survive oso...

  • seekingguidance's Avatar
    16 posts since Feb '08
    • Originally posted by Fatum:

      you're already PES E, what more do you want ? ... PES F ? .....

      that's for people with terminal cancer and HIV and the like you know ....

      I never said I wanted a PES F.

      Please read carefully.

      In fact I wish I could hide my condition.

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