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The importance of natural justice

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  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • What do we mean by natural Justice? It is a process whereby justice is served in a natrual way without any from of bias, under careful analysis and thought and confirmation. The accused is given the opportunity to explain himself and the law sees the issue from all sides. In the most general sense, there are two kinds of law—natural law and positive law. Natural law has been recognized since the ancient world to be a general body of rules of right conduct and justice common to all mankind. This concept grew from the observation of the operation of the laws of nature and their uniformity. Positive law, on the other hand, consists of regulations formulated by the heads of a country or society. Positive laws are meant to curb social problems and the justice served out may not be worthy of the crime committed like e.g Death Penalty for drugs ect and in many cases, becomes too harsh a punishment.

      Now let's talk about death penalty for  the drug trafficking in singapore. What went wrong?

      While we have the technology and resources to  stop the flow of drugs into the country, why is there a need for the death penalty?. Is it truly necessary? To act as a deterrent? It may do so if there is no other means to control the problem but when control measures are available, is there a necessity for such a  treatment as death penalty? In my opinion, the death penalty is not a natural justice law as it convicts everyone without giving a chance to explain their stance in circumstances where the offender is a victim  be used by others unknowingly to commit crimes.

      Natural Justice is the only universal and fair law that should exist.

       

  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Sure, death penalty "convicts everyone without giving a chance to explain their stance in circumstances where the offender is a victim".

      examples of that will be nice..

  • HiAy3Captain's Avatar
    1,120 posts since Apr '09
  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • What are your chances of survivng if u been framed up by someone or being used by others unknowingly?

      The courts will not see it. They will just give u the death penalty JUST for possession of drugs. 

      And lack of any natural justice will give rise to opportunitites for drug traffickers to use others for their ulterior motives.

       

  • HiAy3Captain's Avatar
    1,120 posts since Apr '09
  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      What are your chances of survivng if u been framed up by someone or being used by others unknowingly?

      The courts will not see it. They will just give u the death penalty JUST for possession of drugs. 

      And lack of any natural justice will give rise to opportunitites for drug traffickers to use others for their ulterior motives.

      No court in the world can rule out the being framed up thingie. It is the sort of thing that will happen, no matter what the system is.

      Nope, the court won't give u death penalty JUST for possession of drugs. There is a thing called trial where people are judged.

      ok, give me scenario where natural justice will  NOT give rise to opportunitites for drug traffickers to use others for their ulterior motives.

  • candiz's Avatar
    755 posts since Nov '08
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      What do we mean by natural Justice? It is a process whereby justice is served in a natrual way without any from of bias, under careful analysis and thought and confirmation. The accused is given the opportunity to explain himself and the law sees the issue from all sides. In the most general sense, there are two kinds of law—natural law and positive law. Natural law has been recognized since the ancient world to be a general body of rules of right conduct and justice common to all mankind. This concept grew from the observation of the operation of the laws of nature and their uniformity. Positive law, on the other hand, consists of regulations formulated by the heads of a country or society. Positive laws are meant to curb social problems and the justice served out may not be worthy of the crime committed like e.g Death Penalty for drugs ect and in many cases, becomes too harsh a punishment.

      Now let's talk about death penalty for  the drug trafficking in singapore. What went wrong?

      While we have the technology and resources to  stop the flow of drugs into the country, why is there a need for the death penalty?. Is it truly necessary? To act as a deterrent? It may do so if there is no other means to control the problem but when control measures are available, is there a necessity for such a  treatment as death penalty? In my opinion, the death penalty is not a natural justice law as it convicts everyone without giving a chance to explain their stance in circumstances where the offender is a victim  be used by others unknowingly to commit crimes.

      Natural Justice is the only universal and fair law that should exist.

       

      your description of positive law is wrong

      although positive law is posited by humans and authority, that does not mean they are devoid of any moral values, in fact they can be more 'moral' than the so-called natural law

      just had a module on philo, hehe, so just correct correct abittongue.png

  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • U dont get it , do u?. The death penalty is an advantage to cunning criminals who will use others to traffic drugs because they know that their victim will be dead and will not be traced back to them. it is a weakness on the part of the law because it does not  convicts the real culprits but their victims. Of course , I am talking about circumstances where such things happen and the law becomes blind because it is so obsessed with handing out punishment.

  • HiAy3Captain's Avatar
    1,120 posts since Apr '09
  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • Originally posted by skythewood:

      No court in the world can rule out the being framed up thingie. It is the sort of thing that will happen, no matter what the system is.

      Nope, the court won't give u death penalty JUST for possession of drugs. There is a thing called trial where people are judged.

      ok, give me scenario where natural justice will  NOT give rise to opportunitites for drug traffickers to use others for their ulterior motives.

      Singapore's laws give the "guilty until proven innocent" treatment rather than "Innocent until proven guilty".

      I am sure u know this if u stayed here yr whole life.

       Yes, natural justice will  not stop  drug traffickers to use others for their ulterior motives, but at least true justice and not the wrong justice is served.

       

       

  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      U dont get it , do u?. The death penalty is an advantage to cunning criminals who will use others to traffic drugs because they know that their victim will be dead and will not be traced back to them. it is a weakness on the part of the law because it does not  convicts the real culprits but their victims. Of course , I am talking about circumstances where such things happen and the law becomes blind because it is so obsessed with handing out punishment.


      huh? so if there is no death penalty, people will be able to trace back to the cunning criminals? criminal making use of others will always happen what? And to sentence people to death IS a heavy sentence, obsess with handing out punishment? You mean the judge likes ordering people to be put to death?

  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      Singapore's laws give the "guilty until proven innocent" treatment rather than "Innocent until proven guilty".

      I am sure u know this if u stayed here yr whole life.

       Yes, natural justice will  not stop  drug traffickers to use others for their ulterior motives, but at least true justice and not the wrong justice is served.

      Nope, almost all the law is innocent til proven guilty.

      Give me an example of guilty before innocent that irks you bah.

      as for the true justice is serve part, i don't get it. just tell me the advantage of natural justice, it's easier that way.

       

      And by the way, just discussing ah, don't get offended or anything ah.

  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • In western countries , there is something called accused/witness experience and credibility. It is based on psycho profiling of the accused or witness to determine the validity of his/her claims.

      it works by a thorough background check , lie detector tests, the mental history  past and current activities, quite similar to criminal profiling. Then a set of probaility metrics is used to judge the chances of an accused committing the crime , because criminals often have proven characteristics that are identifiable. The concept is based on  observation of the operation of the   human nature and their patterns.

      One example of this is   a test by a  famous American psychologist. It goes like this:

       

      A woman, while at the funeral of her grandfather, met this guy whom she did not know. She thought the guy was amazing, her dream man! She fell in love with him instantly, but never asked for his phone number and could not find him after the funeral. A few days later she killed her sister.

      Question: What is her motive in killing her sister?

        Any serial killer who gets it wrong is a liar - in keeping with their psychopathy - they know the answer.

      Edited by Worldlybusinessman 23 Apr `09, 8:56PM
  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      In western countries , there is something called accused/witness experience and credibility. It is based on psycho profiling of the accused or witness to determine the validity of his/her claims.

      it works by a throught background check , the mental history  past and current activities, quite similar to criminal profiling. Then a set of probaility metrics is used to judge the chances of an accused committing the crime . because criminals often have characteristics that are identifyable.

      One example of this is   a test by a  famous American psychologist. It goes like this:

       

      A woman, while at the funeral of her grandfather, met this guy whom she did not know. She thought the guy was amazing, her dream man! She fell in love with him instantly, but never asked for his phone number and could not find him after the funeral. A few days later she killed her sister.

      Question: What is her motive in killing her sister?

        Any serial killer who gets it wrong is a liar - in keeping with their psychopathy - they know the answer.


      ok. so? Can this stuff be presented in the court of law as evidence?

  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • Originally posted by skythewood:


      ok. so? Can this stuff be presented in the court of law as evidence?

      No. It is a tool to give investigators a lead or to establish a motive as a starting point.

  • And life goes on... with shades of grey
    BadzMaro's Avatar
    33,746 posts since Apr '04
  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      No. It is a tool to give investigators a lead or to establish a motive as a starting point.

      oh.

      ok.

  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • In case u dont know, such tools have been designed or being used by professional bodies like the FBI.

  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      In case u dont know, such tools have been designed or being used by professional bodies like the FBI.

      yup, just like profiling, very useful.

      very good.

  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by BadzMaro:

      I prefer Street Justice.

      Fast n Hard justice. lol

      Yeah, sure, go ahead. Just don't get caught.

  • Worldlybusinessman's Avatar
    1,429 posts since Dec '08
    • I dont see why it cannot be used on someone on the death row for a crime he did not commit. Without the concept of natural justice, such tools may probably never been invented. It is because natural Justice gives the person a right to be prove or be proven  guilty or innocent.

  • skythewood's Avatar
    7,346 posts since Jul '07
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      I dont see why it cannot be used on someone on the death row for a crime he did not commit. Without the concept of natural justice, such tools may probably never been invented. It is because natural Justice gives the person a right to be prove or be proven  guilty or innocent.


      err... ok. so the problem is not using that tool? " natural Justice gives the person a right to be prove or be proven guilty or innocent." That sounds great? But i can't visualize how it is different from the current system.

  • Stevenson101's Avatar
    1,925 posts since Feb '03
    • While it may sound like a very good tool to help the wrongly charged, i can't help feeling that like a good lawyer it seems so good an escape tool for the rich.

  • 00king00's Avatar
    230 posts since Jun '08
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      No. It is a tool to give investigators a lead or to establish a motive as a starting point.

      I believe you are not very well aquainted with the law

      Motive is never a deciding factor in the determination of murder. Criminal law talks about intention, not motive, and it's the same all over the world, including US. I can have the motive of killing you to inherit all your $$, but if I do not have the intention to kill you, I should not be punished just for my evil motive alone.

      The purpose of lie detector tests, motive assessment etc is to impute the intention on the accused, it's not to find out the motive. This is just the tip of the iceberg, there's a whole lot more stuff about criminal law that you have misinterpreted and wrongly stated here.

      In fact, the judicial system in Singapore is definitely top-quality, the judgements (besides the 'certain suits') are cogent and reasoned based on the penal code and precedents. Go read them before commenting, if you can find anything unjust then come look for me again.shade.png

  • 00king00's Avatar
    230 posts since Jun '08
    • Originally posted by Worldlybusinessman:

      U dont get it , do u?. The death penalty is an advantage to cunning criminals who will use others to traffic drugs because they know that their victim will be dead and will not be traced back to them. it is a weakness on the part of the law because it does not  convicts the real culprits but their victims. Of course , I am talking about circumstances where such things happen and the law becomes blind because it is so obsessed with handing out punishment.

      Have you heard of section 34 in the penal code? The masterminds will be caught by caught by this section, so no worries, all are fair, all will go for hangingoh.png

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