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who created God

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  • Moderator
    despondent's Avatar
    2,223 posts since Feb '06
    • a valid qn or a flawed qn? it boils down to whether God is perceived as finite or infinite...before anyone can determine if this qn is valid or flawed, depends on the perception of God...

  • [imdestinyz]'s Avatar
    1,361 posts since Jan '11
  • Moderator
    despondent's Avatar
    2,223 posts since Feb '06
    • true but usually when ppl ask this qn, its wif the assumption tat God is present...then who created God? they ask this qn cos they noe there is no answer hence it affirms their belief tat God dun exist...this thread is meant to discuss if ''who created God'' is a valid or flawed qn...

  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by despondent:

      true but usually when ppl ask this qn, its wif the assumption tat God is present...then who created God? they ask this qn cos they noe there is no answer hence it affirms their belief tat God dun exist...this thread is meant to discuss if ''who created God'' is a valid or flawed qn...

      Personally I think it is an honest question prima facie, depending upon one's notion about what God is. But if by God one refers to the Christian concept of God, then I think it is both invalid and flawed. 

  • Moderator
    despondent's Avatar
    2,223 posts since Feb '06
    • in the 1st place this qn came about cos ppl ask who created man...so since God created man then who created God...it like a natural progressive qn...but they didnt realise they are jumping from a finite realm to an infinite realm when they made that natural progresive qn...

  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by despondent:

      in the 1st place this qn came about cos ppl ask who created man...so since God created man then who created God...it like a natural progressive qn...but they didnt realise they are jumping from a finite realm to an infinite realm when they made that natural progresive qn...

      True. I also think people asking this question also holds an unstated assumption about things in general, which is that everything must have a cause. However, the more correct restatement would be that every EFFECT must have a cause. But not every cause must have a cause. The first cause does not have a cause. If it has, then it cannot be the first. So by definition, the first cause has no cause.

  • mlmersrlosers's Avatar
    1,258 posts since Jan '08
    • there is no god. Humans created gods. thats why so many dumb ppl gave money to that kong hee

  • [imdestinyz]'s Avatar
    1,361 posts since Jan '11
    • Originally posted by mlmersrlosers:

      there is no god. Humans created gods. thats why so many dumb ppl gave money to that kong hee


      dont bring kong hee in yet la... he is just someone who made use of god's name to do his nonsense. Different frm whether god exist in the first place anot la.

  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by mlmersrlosers:

      there is no god. Humans created gods. thats why so many dumb ppl gave money to that kong hee

      Thank you for your post. I guess the question is IRRELEVANT to you since you deny that God exists.

  • White Dust's Avatar
    42 posts since Jun '12
    • The question "What created God" is flawed as you cannot have causality in the absence of time. Unless one assumes that creation is possible in the absence of time, I think the notion of "create" in this scenario is implicitly question begging.

      A more entertaining question should perhaps be "What caused the auto-deletion of my threads?" Nevertheless, I will continue creating those threads ad infinitum until a reason is provided.

  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by White Dust:

      The question "What created God" is flawed as you cannot have causality in the absence of time. Unless one assumes that creation is possible in the absence of time, I think the notion of "create" in this scenario is implicitly question begging.

      A more entertaining question should perhaps be "What caused the auto-deletion of my threads?" Nevertheless, I will continue creating those threads ad infinitum until a reason is provided.

      The Bible teaches that creation of the universe and all that is in it took place over 6 days. We are time bound because we are physical beings. God lives in eternity and is the cause of the 3 dimensional universe we live in. See also http://creation.com/the-gospel-in-time-and-space and http://creation.com/universe-cause

  • Moderator
    despondent's Avatar
    2,223 posts since Feb '06
    • to white dust:

      u need to understand that to creationists time is finite and hence is part of creation...so yes, causality can only occurred in the realm of time...since time is finite, its therefore created and so the creator of time has to live outside the realm of time...the qn: who created God suggests a God that is bounded by time which makes the God finite...

  • Aneslayer's Avatar
    1,511 posts since May '11
    • Biblical God. Implied axiom: 1st cause = God. Else, the question becomes like the conventional chicken and egg issue.

      Edited by Aneslayer 10 Jul `12, 6:08PM
  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by Aneslayer:

      Biblical God. Implied axiom: 1st cause = God. Else, the question becomes like the conventional chicken and egg issue.

       

      There is no chicken or egg issue. The chicken came first! Now the first cause must necessarily be God. If you know of any alternative please share.

  • Aneslayer's Avatar
    1,511 posts since May '11
  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by Aneslayer:

      you missed reading the word "conventional".


      Still there is no conventional chicken or egg issue. It has always been the chicken first.

  • Aneslayer's Avatar
    1,511 posts since May '11
  • White Dust's Avatar
    42 posts since Jun '12
    • We live in a four dimensioned universe. Time is the fourth dimension. One says that causality can only occur within the realm of time yet postulates that time can be created (an event which has to exist outside of time). In order for the premise to be accepted, one has to demonstrate how causality can occur outside of time. With all due respect, I simply do not think this has been done. Furthermore, the universe and all that is in it was not created within 6 days. It was created over billions of years. Let's discuss the age of the Earth while we're at it too! 

      * Hopefully this thread doesn't get locked, though I have a creeping suspicion that it might.

  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by White Dust:

      We live in a four dimensioned universe. Time is the fourth dimension. One says that causality can only occur within the realm of time yet postulates that time can be created (an event which has to exist outside of time). In order for the premise to be accepted, one has to demonstrate how causality can occur outside of time. With all due respect, I simply do not think this has been done. Furthermore, the universe and all that is in it was not created within 6 days. It was created over billions of years. Let's discuss the age of the Earth while we're at it too! 

      * Hopefully this thread doesn't get locked, though I have a creeping suspicion that it might.


      Put it this way, the Bible says that with God a day is like a years, this verse means that God is not bound by time as we know it. Linear time as we experience it had a beginning. Time, space and matter were all simultaneously created ex nihilo, out of nothing. God who inhabits eternity created time together with space and matter. We shouls not make the mistake of boxing God in time. See http://creation.com/universe-had-a-beginning

      The Bible tells us that God created the universe in six days about six thousand years ago. It is interesting that you used the word "created" but over billions of years. But created by who or what? No human can prove how old the universe. It is a matter of fairh whichever view we take. But there are many lines of evidence that point to a young earth. See http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth

      Edited by BroInChrist 10 Jul `12, 11:13PM
  • White Dust's Avatar
    42 posts since Jun '12
    • Let's not make the mistake of asserting that creation is possible without time. You still have to demonstrate that causation can occur in the absence of time. Second point, created by the big bang of course, all that there is, the spiral galaxies, the supernovas and so forth were created by the enormous explosion of energy from the singularity we call the big bang. It is interesting to note that it is possible to attain a very good estimate of the Earth's age (4.6 billion years old). These methods can be discussed in more detail if you like. Not to mention, even contemporary Christian philosophers such as William Lane Craig, Richard Swinburne and Alvin Plantinga admit that the universe is 14 billion years old and think that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old! So I don't think this is an issue of great contention. But nonetheless, if you wish to discuss the methodologies behind it, I would be more than happy to do so. I shall provide some informative links. I have learned a great deal (particularly from Cornell University's website) about Mathmatics in Latvia society so I highly recommend their website with regards to astronomy.

      http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=45/

      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

      Edited by White Dust 10 Jul `12, 11:45PM
  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by White Dust:

      Let's not make the mistake of asserting that creation is possible without time. You still have to demonstrate that causation can occur in the absence of time. Second point, created by the big bang of course, all that there is, the spiral galaxies, the supernovas and so forth were created by the enormous explosion of energy from the singularity we call the big bang. It is interesting to note that it is possible to attain a very good estimate of the Earth's age (4.6 billion years old). These methods can be discussed in more detail if you like. Not to mention, even contemporary Christian philosophers such as William Lane Craig, Richard Swinburne and Alvin Plantinga admit that the universe is 14 billion years old and think that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old! So I don't think this is an issue of great contention. But nonetheless, if you wish to discuss the methodologies behind it, I would be more than happy to do so. I shall provide some informative links. I have learned a great deal (particularly from Cornell University's website) about Mathmatics in Latvia society so I highly recommend their website with regards to astronomy.

      http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=45/

      http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

      I think the issue is not that of creation without time, but that time itself is created since time has a beginning. Scientists generally agree that time, space and matter were created simultaneously. See also http://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html and also http://www.reasonablefaith.org/god-time-and-creation

      Secondly, bear in mind that the big bang theory is not fact, but a theory or model to explain the universe. It is a belief and one not without its critics (see http://creation.com/secular-scientists-blast-the-big-bang). But it only confirms the fact that the universe has a beginning. Did the big bang "create" everything that exists? How does order comes from that? By what means?

      Thirdly, whatever age we derived about the earth is based upon unproven assumptions about many things in the past. I am aware that many Christians hold to a long age view, but that doesn't mean they are right in doing so. In fact, I would argue that they hold to a compromised view. Contrary to what you think, I see the age of the earth as a big issue of contention. See http://creation.com/Did-god-create-over-billions-of-years

      But I think we can set aside the age of the earth issue for now, or perhaps in a new thread topic. What is more foundational is to address the question of origins as to the cause of the universe. In other words, is there a Creator?

       

      Edited by BroInChrist 11 Jul `12, 12:30PM
  • Moderator
    despondent's Avatar
    2,223 posts since Feb '06
  • Moderator
    BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by despondent:

      eh, is there a creator is not the motive of this thread...that shld be another topic...

      Oops! Anyway, here's a link that is relevant. It basically says that the question is an illogical one. Read on to find out why http://creation.com/who-created-god

  • Moderator
    despondent's Avatar
    2,223 posts since Feb '06
    • no wonder u kept using: who is the bachelor's wife as ur explanation why the qn is flawed...i am stil looking for known articles which use wads the value of infinity as the explanation...currently seems like i am alone for this...

  • White Dust's Avatar
    42 posts since Jun '12
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      I think the issue is not that of creation without time, but that time itself is created since time has a beginning. Scientists generally agree that time, space and matter were created simultaneously. See also http://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html and also http://www.reasonablefaith.org/god-time-and-creation

      Secondly, bear in mind that the big bang theory is not fact, but a theory or model to explain the universe. It is a belief and one not without its critics (see http://creation.com/secular-scientists-blast-the-big-bang). But it only confirms the fact that the universe has a beginning. Did the big bang "create" everything that exists? How does order comes from that? By what means?

      Thirdly, whatever age we derived about the earth is based upon unproven assumptions about many things in the past. I am aware that many Christians hold to a long age view, but that doesn't mean they are right in doing so. In fact, I would argue that they hold to a compromised view. Contrary to what you think, I see the age of the earth as a big issue of contention. See http://creation.com/Did-god-create-over-billions-of-years

      But I think we can set aside the age of the earth issue for now, or perhaps in a new thread topic. What is more foundational is to address the question of origins as to the cause of the universe. In other words, is there a Creator?

       

      I think the issue is about creation in the absence of time. Since the creation of time itself must be an event outside of time. No, scientists do not agree that time, space and matter were created - scientists hold to the view that time, space and matter began to exist.

      I understand. The same applies to the theory of gravity. However, theories can be translated into facts. There are 4 pieces of evidence in favor of the big bang. Two of which are microwave background radiation and general relativity. To say that someone believes in the big bang is no different from saying that one believes in gravity. Sure, one may say that, but it's merely semantics. Big bang did not create anything in particular (energy can neither be created nor destroyed). I think you speak of dis-order? That has to do with entrophy - the universe progresses towards chaos, not order.

      The age of the Earth can be dated using uranium dating (uranium has a half life of 4.47 billion years). Uranium compunds in igneous rocks can be dated backwards to achieve a fairly decent estimate of the age of the Earth. If someone can offer an alternative method of determining the age of the Earth, I'll be glad to hear it.

      Yes, is there a creator? I addressed some issues about "creating time" in a couple of my previous posts. Thus far, I have not heard any justification of such a premise and how this can be done.

       

      Edited by White Dust 11 Jul `12, 8:00PM
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