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  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Not up to me to decide, but up to you to decide? Duh....

      Again I say, your approach is a terrible way to approach Scripture.

      BIC

      I don't know terrible or not.

      But it works!! Name yourself some verses and try!

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      You mean there is no such thing as objectively good and objectively evil? So you don't believe in the existence of objective moral values? The Bible speaks of good and evil, all subjective and appeal to emotions?

      Sin was first conceived in the devil himself. In his pride he led a rebellion against God.

      Which part of my description is meaningless? Why?

      I disagree that evil is inevitable. Anyway, the fact remains that times that the existence of evil is taken as an argument against the existence of God, especially that of the God of the Bible. How do you deal with this? Just say it is a fruitless debate to the atheist?

      BIC

      In the first place, not everyone believes in the christian version of the devil.

      And the spirits are not empirical evidence, just experiences of some human beings..

       

      Why do you make such huge assumptions?

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      You mean there is no such thing as objectively good and objectively evil? So you don't believe in the existence of objective moral values? The Bible speaks of good and evil, all subjective and appeal to emotions?

      Sin was first conceived in the devil himself. In his pride he led a rebellion against God.

      Which part of my description is meaningless? Why?

      I disagree that evil is inevitable. Anyway, the fact remains that times that the existence of evil is taken as an argument against the existence of God, especially that of the God of the Bible. How do you deal with this? Just say it is a fruitless debate to the atheist?

      BIC

      In the first place, not everyone believes in the christian version of the devil.

      And the spirits are not empirical evidence, just experiences of some human beings..

       

      Why do you make such huge assumptions?

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Sorry. I am not in the habit of doing such things, to see which verses I like or dislike, or which I think is extreme or moderate, to see whether I want to obey or not. That is NOT the way to approach Scripture. I suggest you pick up Gordon Fee's book to disabuse yourself of such a flawed approach to the Bible.

      BIC

      Flawed or not, don't think it is up to you to decide. For me, I tried and it worked. I mean, its just a suggestion for you to try too.

      I already told you - group the commands into "moderate" and "extreme in nature". THen study the two groups and see which group of commands is being practised still.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Not evading? How many times have you refused to answer the question?

      Diversity of beliefs within Christianity and atheism is irrelevant. Don't throw red herrings. The question is, and let me rephrase my question so you don't evade again, "Do atheism declare that ALL religions are WRONG in claiming that the spiritual world exists, and that there are spiritual beings like God, angels and demons?"

      BIC

      Better read up more on the different groups of atheists before making sweeping statements based on your limited knowledge

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Tcmc, you are still evading my question. As expected, you take the sidestepping tact of saying that there are SOME truths in religions. Of course by that you refer mainly to the moral truths like do not murder or do not lie etc. But you KNOW that's not what I am referring to.

      BIC,

      not evading the question! Just stating facts for you!

      You got to know like christians, atheists are diversed.

      But difference is christians have an allknowing god to guide them, so by right should be a bit less diversed than atheists.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      So just because you have done it means got trend? I call that a case of projection, not trend!

      I started this topic just to say that CHC as christians has a right to practice 10% tithing because they are merely obeying what is written in their Holy Book, the Bible.

      So I don't see why other christians should be so offended by them practicing tithing and offering their first "fruits" to God.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      So just because you have done it means got trend? I call that a case of projection, not trend!

      BIC

      Why don't you go try it yourself? Extreme innature verses and moderate verses. THen classify them into "still being practiced" and "not being practiced".

      Fits nicely.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      To talk about trend you must show some statistics right?

      BIC

      You can do it very conveniently in the comfort of your house, with your bible.

      I have done it before.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • BIC

      Anyway, I started this topic just to say that CHC as christians has a right to practice 10% tithing because they are merely obeying what is written in their Holy Book, the Bible.

      So I don't see why other christians should be so offended by them practicing tithing and offering their first "fruits" to God.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      No.

      The trend I see is the undermining of  Biblical Authority caused by a departure in holding on to the inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of Scripture.

      BIC

      You dont see that trend??

      Why dont you read your bible, try to pick out those verses that are "extreme in nature" or "inconvenient" and find out for yourself how many of these verses are still being practised today.

      Then pick out those verses that are more moderate and generally easy to practice and see how many of these verses are still being practised?

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Tcmc, you are being very dishonest. You yourself said that ALL religions are the SAME since they at least hold to a belief in the existence of the supernatural realm and supernatural beings, gods or demons etc. Since you believe that such beings do not exist, then isn't it true that all religions are fundamentally false? Don't try to weasel out by saying that SOME things that religions teach are true, the moral things etc etc. Well, you know very well what I was really talking about.

      BIC

      My issue with you is that you think that all atheists think that:

      Religions are false in their entirety

      Religious people are deluded.

       

      That is NOT true. Not all atheists believe in that! Most atheists I know do believe that religions do hold many truths and that religious people can be very smart academically too!

      Atheists are humans, just like christians. We are complex and you cannot just use simplistic definitions on the internet to label all of us.

      It's just like how I do not label all christians "must believe in the Trinity" or that all christians "must tithe and speak in tongues". I accept there is diversity within christianity too!

       

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Interpreting the Bible in context is not to be confused with the implication or application of it. Interpretation comes before application. Only when you have properly exegeted the text, in its immediate context and the larger context of the Bible, then can you ask the next question, is this applicable today? Problem for you is that you did not even get the interpretation step right. Did anyone teach you about inductive Bible study? Did you read books like "How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth" by Gordon Fee? Go read it.

      BIC

      Yea i don't know about how christians "officially" interpret verses to see if they are applicable or not (I am sure many christians do not know how to too) But i see a trend in how christians interpret the verses. Correct me if i am wrong.

      To christians, what I have noticed is basically there 3 reasons why they do not obey/practice certain verses, The 3 reasons are not applicable, not literal or out of context.

      I noticed also that verses in the OT or NT that are inconvenient or "extreme" in nature are mostly considered irrelevant, not applicable or not literal. Example: Verses in the OT include those those that talk about tithing 10%, stoning, warring against unbelievers etc. Verses in the NT include cutting off limbs if one sins, giving all away to pick up the cross of jesus, turning the other cheek for enemy to hit are all irrelevant, not applicable or not literal.

      Do you notice this trend too?

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:

      Name-calling and caricaturing my beliefs again?

      I NEVER said EVERYTHING is black or white, true or false. But many things are. But you are still REFUSING to answer a simple question, a very logical one in fact.

      What are you afraid of?

      Atheism claims that THE truth is that all religions are false. True or false? Since you say that it is false. Then all I am asking you is to elaborate why? Don't give the irrelevant answer about each religion having beautiful Scriptures, that's not answering the question.

      BIC

      you are being very extreme. You keep saying that all atheists think that all religions are false in their entirety and that atheists think all religious people are deluded.

      That's not true.

      You cant just read some definition and impose your black-white definitions on all atheists!

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by bycai:

      every start and ending short prayer and song, shld ve 'praise the lord' and also Glorifying Lord'. and then the merit of your prayer and song must transfer to all living beings especially yr parents angel.png

      bycai

      Like Taoism, christians also must mention names when praying so Gods will know the people to bless.

      Its like "sealing" the prayer.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by Aneslayer:

      And you are taking issues on a non believers' intepretation when SJS was addressing to Mancha and you have to intervene by shoving your biblical knowledge unsolicitedly.... 
      What SJS said" There is one verse in thebible that says be cheerful when you give. " relates to his interpretation of the bible verse which correspong to Paul's "... for God loves a cheerful giver."
      What SJS said" If one is unhappy to give then don't give.    Anyway, not everyone has then means to give 10 percent. " Relates only to his opinion, which I sumise, he meant when one is compelled to give beyond one's means in the name of God(0), that would render one cheerless and risk one being not loved by God if one actually giveth.

      No one is worthy of salvation. No one.

      BIC

      Eh Bic, if you want to take in context everything in the bible like how you "take in context", then nothing is applicable la.

      The ten commandments not applicable. The "love your neighbour" also not applicable as jesus was speaking to the jews 2000 years ago.

      A message for the jews only.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by Joe 328:

       

      2. broinchrist and I had to deal with that as well. It's ok to disagree on some things. Even broinchrist and I disagree with some things. For me the tithe is voluntary, for him the tithe is 100% gone. But It's a small thing. Not a matter of life and death. Scientists disagree with each other too. Not every scientist agree with Einstein's theory too, and it doesn't stop them from continuing their research and finding out the answer to their thesis.

      Small things you can disagree. Big things you cannot. Things like salvation by faith, not by works. This is the basic, because if you don't know this, everything can be a basis for "hellfire" and will warp your theology. (If I don't tithe, will I go to hell?) Once you are sure that salvation is by faith in Jesus's finished work and nothing can add to it, then can you move on to other things.

      The things of God are spiritually discerned - that means it takes a spiritual person with spiritual eyes to see them. If you will open your heart, God will find you and let you see the answers you are looking for. You don't find truth, truth will find you. That's when the conviction is real. And you know for sure and you don't really need anyone to tell you.

      God has more leeway than you think, although he is absolute. There is such a thing as grace in theology. (from where we get the word "gracious"). How can God be absolute and "flexible" at the same time? I cannot explain it all in 1 sitting, but if you will open your heart and take step-by-step in faith, more answers will come to you.

      To answer your question why "the same god can tell different christians that different part of the OT are applicable". By that I take it that you mean why Christians don't agree?

      A few reasons, I will talk about the main ones. Because the Bible is a very thick tome of writings that nobody can finish in one go. It takes a length of time to read all of it. It took me 4 years to finish it. Reading it is one thing, processing what you read and understanding it is a different thing. There are times you can read something, but not really reading - kind of like your wife is talking to you, but you are not really listening, although you hear the words.

      Because of this, most Christians rely on a Bible teacher (like a pastor) to preach and teach the word and sometimes this just produces people who only regurgitate what their pastor tell them. They need to double check it with the Bible to make sure if it tallies. (The Bereans in the Bible did this and so Scripture teaches us to do this, though not everyone obeys this scripture. Hence, sometimes incorrect things are passed down - as church tradition, etc.). You have every right to throw away anything that is taught that does not conform to scripture.

      Another reason is: not everybody interprets the Bible correctly... because some verses *appear* to contradict one another.

      First of all, you must acknowledge that the book (Bible) as being of supernatural origin. Although penned down by men, the content is inspired. Just because someone is a Minister (like a pastor), has a Phd, or has attended Bible college doesn't mean his interpretation is right, you still have to check it. Because if the book is supernatural in origin, it will take a supernatural force to unlock its secrets and to understand it.

      You have to understand. The Bible is hidden. To a normal person, you will read it and find nothing meaningful and even come to the wrong conclusions. So, one has to rely on the true Author to reveal to him what it really means. What this means is that YOU HAVE TO PRAY. And God Himself will open your eyes to see. There's no description of this experience - it's like riding a bicycle. How do you know you have balance? It's just something natural.

      Lastly, nobody knows everything about the Bible. At most people know sizable chunks of the truths in it. And the really really important ones. There are an inexhaustible amount of things hidden in the Bible waiting to be revealed. If everyone knew everything, then He will be exactly like Jesus, because He is the Word made flesh and that person will know 100% what the book of Revelations is all about - the truth is, no one knows all of the things, what some of the symbols mean in Revelations. God reveals truths in stages, not all in one go. When you are ready, He will bring you to the next stage (milk vs. solid food). But salvation by faith in Jesus is the foundation. You cannot go on, until you really know that one.

      I cannot explain everything on this forum. It takes time to slowly uncover the scriptures bit by bit. The Bible is known to be like bread (man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God), you don't eat 1 year's worth of food in one go. You eat it in portions, and then you grow, from toddler (needing milk) to young child (who can take solid food), to a full grown adult. It's the same way. I hope I am making sense. And I pray Jesus reveals Himself to you in a personal way so you are acquainted with Him and His presence. Then, you don't need to be convinced by anyone and you won't be tossed to and fro (like the Bible says). You will have faith for yourself.

      Joe

      "First of all, you must acknowledge that the book (Bible) as being of supernatural origin"

       

      Lol. So we have to make an assumptio first before studying the bible?

      Also, you didn't get what I asked.

      How can the same god be telling church A that tongues is biblical and telling church B that tongues is not biblical?

      Then you tell one church is wrong. But both churches use the same methods - praying, reading scripture, quoting scripture.

      Why?

       

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by Joe 328:

       

      2. broinchrist and I had to deal with that as well. It's ok to disagree on some things. Even broinchrist and I disagree with some things. For me the tithe is voluntary, for him the tithe is 100% gone. But It's a small thing. Not a matter of life and death. Scientists disagree with each other too. Not every scientist agree with Einstein's theory too, and it doesn't stop them from continuing their research and finding out the answer to their thesis.

      Small things you can disagree. Big things you cannot. Things like salvation by faith, not by works. This is the basic, because if you don't know this, everything can be a basis for "hellfire" and will warp your theology. (If I don't tithe, will I go to hell?) Once you are sure that salvation is by faith in Jesus's finished work and nothing can add to it, then can you move on to other things.

      The things of God are spiritually discerned - that means it takes a spiritual person with spiritual eyes to see them. If you will open your heart, God will find you and let you see the answers you are looking for. You don't find truth, truth will find you. That's when the conviction is real. And you know for sure and you don't really need anyone to tell you.

      God has more leeway than you think, although he is absolute. There is such a thing as grace in theology. (from where we get the word "gracious"). How can God be absolute and "flexible" at the same time? I cannot explain it all in 1 sitting, but if you will open your heart and take step-by-step in faith, more answers will come to you.

      To answer your question why "the same god can tell different christians that different part of the OT are applicable". By that I take it that you mean why Christians don't agree?

      A few reasons, I will talk about the main ones. Because the Bible is a very thick tome of writings that nobody can finish in one go. It takes a length of time to read all of it. It took me 4 years to finish it. Reading it is one thing, processing what you read and understanding it is a different thing. There are times you can read something, but not really reading - kind of like your wife is talking to you, but you are not really listening, although you hear the words.

      Because of this, most Christians rely on a Bible teacher (like a pastor) to preach and teach the word and sometimes this just produces people who only regurgitate what their pastor tell them. They need to double check it with the Bible to make sure if it tallies. (The Bereans in the Bible did this and so Scripture teaches us to do this, though not everyone obeys this scripture. Hence, sometimes incorrect things are passed down - as church tradition, etc.). You have every right to throw away anything that is taught that does not conform to scripture.

      Another reason is: not everybody interprets the Bible correctly... because some verses *appear* to contradict one another.

      First of all, you must acknowledge that the book (Bible) as being of supernatural origin. Although penned down by men, the content is inspired. Just because someone is a Minister (like a pastor), has a Phd, or has attended Bible college doesn't mean his interpretation is right, you still have to check it. Because if the book is supernatural in origin, it will take a supernatural force to unlock its secrets and to understand it.

      You have to understand. The Bible is hidden. To a normal person, you will read it and find nothing meaningful and even come to the wrong conclusions. So, one has to rely on the true Author to reveal to him what it really means. What this means is that YOU HAVE TO PRAY. And God Himself will open your eyes to see. There's no description of this experience - it's like riding a bicycle. How do you know you have balance? It's just something natural.

      Lastly, nobody knows everything about the Bible. At most people know sizable chunks of the truths in it. And the really really important ones. There are an inexhaustible amount of things hidden in the Bible waiting to be revealed. If everyone knew everything, then He will be exactly like Jesus, because He is the Word made flesh and that person will know 100% what the book of Revelations is all about - the truth is, no one knows all of the things, what some of the symbols mean in Revelations. God reveals truths in stages, not all in one go. When you are ready, He will bring you to the next stage (milk vs. solid food). But salvation by faith in Jesus is the foundation. You cannot go on, until you really know that one.

      I cannot explain everything on this forum. It takes time to slowly uncover the scriptures bit by bit. The Bible is known to be like bread (man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God), you don't eat 1 year's worth of food in one go. You eat it in portions, and then you grow, from toddler (needing milk) to young child (who can take solid food), to a full grown adult. It's the same way. I hope I am making sense. And I pray Jesus reveals Himself to you in a personal way so you are acquainted with Him and His presence. Then, you don't need to be convinced by anyone and you won't be tossed to and fro (like the Bible says). You will have faith for yourself.

      Joe

      Are you serious? You mean there are only 2 denominations in christianity? (you and BIC)???

      You didn't know there are other christianity denominations who will disagree with you regarding method of salvation, person of jesus and nature of resurection?

      Joe, you need to read up more on the other christian denominations which disagree with you regarding who jesus is.

      And i don't think you should say that these denominations are not christians just because they believe differently from you.

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:


      Well, show me an atheist who thinks that some religions are true and I will show you a deceitful atheist, or a confused one. Which are you?

      BIC

      You havent answered regarding exposure to other religions to make a sound decision?

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:


      Well, show me an atheist who thinks that some religions are true and I will show you a deceitful atheist, or a confused one. Which are you?

      BIC

      See? Imposing your true-false , black-white bipolar disorder on others again..

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:


      Nope. That's not what I meant. You should know, right? I mean, you did claim to be a Chrisrian and have good knowledge of it, so much so that you ended up rejecting it, ya? Duh...

      BIC

      If you don't hear voices, how do you know it's a "no" ? I mean it could be that no one is there listening or answering thats why things don't go according to your "prayers"? Why you assume?

  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
  • Tcmc's Avatar
    1,419 posts since Nov '11
    • Originally posted by BroInChrist:


      That no one is there is the atheist explanation. That God says "no" or "wait" is the Christian's explanation. And within the the Christian worldview this is perfectly coherent and consistent with what we know about God.

      For the atheist he has to look at every answered prayer and cavalierly dismiss it as mere coincidence even though such a dimissive explanation is ridiculously absurd.

      BIC

      You mean you always hear voices (other than your own) in your head? Just curious.