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  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by 2009novice:

      becareful of what u stating here... it's abit too far icon_lol.gif


      It is not any further than buddhists or atheists saying that the Creator God that the Bible speaks about does not exist.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by troublemaker2005:

      what, dont pichar your own lobang leh!


      How so? Explain please.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      There's no argument. What constitutes a win or lose? Just different perspectives, no?


      Indeed that was no argument at all, it was just pure sarcasm. Yet another either/or fallacy? A different perspective can also be a wrong perspective.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      I think "you have the wrong idea". The murderers etc was in reference to "free from power of sin". Kindly reread when in doubt.

      so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right? => refers to your reply of no ticket is required. 

      Also, "the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!


      You are not reading properly. I did not say that God is bound by time. I said that the time to make a decision for God is not forever. Which is why the Bible says that NOW is the time of salvation.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      "free from power of sin"? really? what about murderers who continue to murder, cheaters continue to cheat, rapers continue to rape? looks like the endless cycle of sin to me.

      so anyone can go to the cinema, right? so, it's non-exclusive just like the noble path, right? 

      "the time to make a decision for God is." -> huh?? so god is bound by time. this makes perfect sense since devas too are subject to kalpas. excellent example!!


      If you insist on stretching the analogy, then I will go along with it albeit reluctantly to say that those who continue to murder and rape will not want to go for the movie at all. They prefer the worldly and lustful pleasures of this life. And it seems that you may have the wrong idea that the movie is never going to start playing! The time will come when the entrance is shut tight and the movie starts. It will be too late if you are left out. But blessed are they who are already seated when the curtains are drawn back.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by Steveyboy:

      Well this is very interesting this thread and I would refrain from making conclusions that will upset any parties. That's why I will revert back to the original teaching which is the fact that all religions, whether it is Buddhism, Christianity and so forth is suppose to transform us. To make us better individuals and kinder too. 

      Personally, I prefer Buddhism, not because I am a pracititioner alone but because it has a very well-developed understanding of the mind and the development of compassion and wisdom. It is very thorough because the Buddha himself gained full enlightenment and through his state gained full understanding and mastery over his mind. That is why I I take refuge in the 3 Jewels beginning with the Buddha. 


      I do not think the choice of religion is a matter of personal preference. In any case, you may not be aware that Christianity also has deep philosophical thinkers. All thinking that is on the right track must start with the knowledge of God.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      Since the movie has been paid for all, why the need for ticket? do you mean to say that space is limited and people can't go to the free-for-all movie without the ticke even if they travel all the way to go watch a free-for-all movie? i'm trust you can read between the lines and know what i mean. 


      You are stretching the analogy. Ok, even if there is no ticket to hand out, you still need to go to the cinema in good faith to watch it. That is faith at work. Heaven is not limited but the time to make a decision for God is.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      Since  "His death was to atone for the sins of the whole world. It was done, which was why He could say, "It is finished." And "payment for our sins" , do we still have sin or not? If no more, why not transform back to paradise millenias ago?


      We are free from the power of sin but not from the presence of sin. But we will be free from the presence of sin when Judgement Day comes and God put all things right.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by sinweiy:

      u didn't understand his analogy? 

      "But if you want to watch it you have to come get the tickets"

      for us Buddhism(not linking so much with PL school), we can work hard and pay for our own ticket! we are not worthless beings. 

      this form of unfairness, imperialism ideal is unlike the fair, equal, democracy Buddhism. 

      However, "There's nothing you can do to buy the ticket or obtain it by any means." ..do have it's ground in Pureland Buddhism. :)

      /\

       


      Why would you think that to offer man salvation by grace is tantamount to implying that man is a worthless being? When it has already been stated that the ticket cannot be earned why do you insist on working for it? Is it one's pride and ego at work to humbly admit that a gift cannot be earned, otherwise it is not called a gift?

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by sinweiy:

      that's kind of a good analogy! in Pureland Buddhism, we are like stuck in a mud pool and Amitabha hold out his hand to us. one can either get out by themselves or if we really want to get out faster u can hold his hand and by His great compassionate vow, He will pull us out to safety first. 

      /\

       

      Did this Pure Land teaching originate from the Buddha himself?

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by sinweiy:

      yea Liger is same as mule. like human of different color can. Ven ShenKai mentioned that things can be "证得" by yourself. He also wish to return to 证得 some science stuff.

      The Evolution of Life on Earth

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2_6cqa2cP4

      45billion yrs compress into 24 hrs. 

      quite a few of suddenly appear. the Eukaryotic cells reminded me of 

       

      http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425491

      narration quote: "..animal life Suddenly erupt in an explosion of inventiveness...plant begin to appear follow by land mammals....first wing insects appear...retiles dominates ...dinosaurs suddenly vanish..." within few "minutes" apes split to old world  monkeys....before midnight human emerge. 

      seems like they are more into chicken come first. lol. i am more into rebirth as a transition between two life forms and the agreement of mutation of geno, which could be the result of karma i think. 

      /\

       

      Note that the magic words used by evolution scientists are "appear, arise" but they do not explain the mechanisms as to how. Such words simply gloss over the insurmountable obstacles from nonliving matter to living things, from simple cells to complex organisms. Time, being the hero of the plot, is simply credited with the powers to do the impossible, given enough time.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

      A real scientist is someone who makes statement based on tested and proven scientific research findings. Not based on one's beliefs and myths. Evolution is based on science, not beliefs and myths.

      Pardon me but I think your view above is rather naive and does not entirely reflect reality. I suppose you have never heard of Thomas Kuhn's paradigm of science?

      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

      And specifically which part of partiples-to-man evolution is based on science?

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by sinweiy:

      yeah, indeed a good point! even now mating of two totally different species to produce a new species is out of the question, i think. u cannot mate a cat and a dog. they think that the split happen long time ago. but i think even now we cannot produce a "real" split....the example of the mule that is the product of horse and donkey is just like european human marrying an asian to produce an eurasian. as their geno are similar.   in short u cannot mix/mate two different geno. not now, then not before too(?). hmm.

      in term of mutation like example when a species no longer needed their tail in their living, and through time, they become shorter is ok with me. 

      /\ 

      I do not believe that cats and dogs split longer. I believe cats have always been cats and dogs have always been dogs. They were created to reproduce after their kind, just like the Bible says. You can mix tiger and lion because they are of the same "cat" kind. I have no problem with mutations at all. Mutations are copy mistakes in DNA. They introduce errors in pre-existing DNA but this does not answer the question of where the DNA comes from.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      so, what's the problem or truth and logic?

      Also, 

      BroInChrist - With all due  respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation. 

      What if creation is true or not? What does it change? What are the implications? We're still here. Suffering is still here. As explained by the Buddha, our suffering originates from our own attachment and aversion. 

      You believe in the creator, right? What are the implications? You're still here. You still suffer from ups and downs, attachment and aversion like all of us who don't believe/emphasize on the creator, don't you?

       

      Your reason of finding the spider is to tell the doctor which spider had bitten you so he could give you the right anti-venom, right? What if the doctor is skillful enough and had went through the same thing and could identify all the symptoms and could gave you medicine accordingly without even looking for the spider. Do you take it or go looking for the spider? The spider is not going to give you an antidote, the doctor will. 

       

      How about what if you're kidnapped, made unconscious and later found yourself left in a forest? There's a footpath left by someone (the buddha) and lights (dharma) lighting the way. Do you walk the path or go searching for the kidnappers? As mentioned earlier, Gautama Buddha's human vessel was subjected to human conditions. Even though, his human vessel is no longer here, his dharma continue to lit the path. His teaching is very much alive and relevant even to this day. In his last moments, the buddha advised us to focus on the teaching rather than the person.

       

      So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done. 

      Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive. 

      1. Right view

      2. Right intention

      3. Right speech

      4. Right action

      5. Right livelihood

      6. Right effort

      7. Right mindfulness

      8. Right concentration

       

      Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust. 

       _________________________________________________________________

       

      I was referring to buddha but if it's jesus to you, excellent!! both teach that we walk the path. As before, what good is it to look for the vegetable seller or the farmer? Knowing the farmer or seller etc won't overcome your own hunger.

      I still don't understand what is the salvation you talked about? You mentioned he's the way. What way? Be like him? Dress like him? Walk his path, right? Just like the metaphor I used earlier. What's the difference? Don't tell me it's okay to walk on the path left by jesus that is lit by his teachings and not okay the path left by the buddha that is lit by his dharma.

       

      Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?

      So, Jesus appeared to everyone at one place at the same time and ascended? "in the belly of the great fish for 3 days", are you for real?? Again, we weren't there. One can only trust. That's why we call it called faith.

       

      You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust. 

       

      Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing? 

      1. It's a problem of truth AND logic. The law of non-contradiction.

      2. Yes, suffering is still here. But not forever. The Bible teaches that God will put an end to all suffering and death. And God proved this by raising Jesus from the dead. Death could not hold Jesus. That's what the resurrection is all about. If Jesus died and remained dead, then He offered no hope at all. Just a record of good teachings that's all.

      3. Again whether you physically go and look for the spide or not is irrelevant, the point is that you or the doctor can identify the CAUSE and thus the right CURE can be prescribed. That's the point I want to make, really. Was the cause irrelevant and does not matter at all? I am sure you would disagree.

      4. As for kidnapped, at least I know the cause of why I was in the forest! I was kidnapped and then rendered unconscious and ended up in a forest. And if this is the condition I find myself to be in, this condition would also be the same for everyone else, including Buddha. He needs help as much as I do. But I do not see how this analogy is relevant at all to the question of whether there is a Creator God who caused the universe to exist.

      5. That a teaching of some religious leader is still followed by adherents today cannot be used as a litmus test for truth. Yes, Buddha claimed to showed the way out of suffering and salvation into Nirvana state. But as I mentioned, the fact that he still suffered and died is different from Jesus who suffered, died AND rose again from the dead to show that suffering and death has no hold over Him.

      6. Regarding the 8 Fold Path, can you 100% follow it in this life? How about two lifetimes? Or three? Like the 10 Commandments of the Bible, I think this 8 Fold Path is impossible to achieve. Do you know of anyone living who claimed to have met all of them from the time he was born?

      7. It is also true that one can only trust the eyewitnesses accounts. Which is also why the Gospels are highly regarded because the events recorded were well within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. They were not written down centuries after the events. If you regard as reliable a document that was written down 500 years after the event by people who were not there, then how much more reliable should you regard a document that was written down within 50 years of the event by eyewitnesses themselves?

      8. Are you then saying that it doesn't matter whether one follows the Buddha or Jesus? I don't think so. Both made exclusive claims and it would be watering down their teachings to say that it doesn't matter which "farmer or vegetable seller" you go to. Moreover, it would be simplistic and misleading to paint this issue as similar to satisfying one's hunger pangs.

      9. The salvation I talked about was the delivery from the ultimate effects of sin, an eternal life in hell. And it is not about walking or dressing like Jesus did. That is mere conforming to outward appearance. The Bible talks about a transformation, a new creation.

      10. If I were still alive at 80 years old, I would also be telling people of my impending death! But Jesus was about 33 years and spoke specifically about how He would be taken and killed and rose from the dead. Unusual claims, don't you think.

      11. Where did you get the idea that Jesus was 3 days 3 nights in the belly of a fish? You have confused yourself. He was likening Himself to the OT prophet Jonah, that He would be dead and buried for 3 days and after that He would rise again. He was talking about the time frame.

      12. Yes, we can only trust the sources we have. That's why it is called faith. But our faith is only as good as the OBJECT of our faith. You cannot put your faith in counterfeit money, but you can put your faith in real money which is backed by the government and legal tender.

      I hope I have addressed most of your questions. I am enjoying this exchange.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      Huh? what's finished?

      The work He came to accomplished. The payment for our sins. Perhaps an analogy would be that I have made payment for all of you to watch an exclusive movie by invitation only and freely offered the tickets to you. But if you want to watch it you have to come get the tickets, or perhaps open the door so that I can deliver over the tickets to you and you make your way to the cinema, make sense? Can you say you earned the right to watch the movie? Nope, you paid nothing for it. Can you say you deserved to watch that movie? Nope, the tickets were offered to everyone. The benefit of the movie was FREELY offered to everyone, but it cost me something because I have to produce the movie and finance the screening of it. So the offer was purely by grace, not because anyone deserved it, but because I choose to give it. There's nothing you can do to buy the ticket or obtain it by any means.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      If there's new discovery and understanding, why not?

      While the meaning of a word may change over time due to usage, it only means there are more than one meaning to the word depending on the context. Which is why a dictionary always have a few entries for each word. But the word universe cannot mean a multiverse, it's incoherent and contradictory. Really, you need to understand that this agenda to prove the existence of multiverses is to steer people away from the notion that this universe is uniquely designed for life. People do not want there to be purposeful design in the universe, so positing the existence of billions of multiverses would give people (mainly those who do not want there to be a God) the comfort that one of these billions must be suitable for life, and that is us. It's philosophy at work here, not science. It is purely hypothetical and mathematical with no empirical evidence. It is the arbitrary multiplying of probabilistic resources to make the impossible or improbable more probable. Nothing conclusive has been found, but people are still looking for it, I'd say it is wishful thinking.

      See http://www.livescience.com/15530-multiverse-universe-eternal-inflation-test.html

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      so, there are "gods"?

      Yes, the Bible recognises that there are "gods" which people worship but which do not exist in reality.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by Steveyboy:

      Dear BroInChrist,

      I didn't say that bible scholars are unbiased. I said that they present their research based on scriptural, archaelogical and socio-political conditions of the time the bible was written. Theologians based theirs on fixed established theological beliefs. Therefore, for me it would seem that the scholars are more compelling. You may not agree with that, its ok but that's what I think right now. It has really got nothing to do with bias or non-bias. 

      It is fallacious to think that one is either a Bible scholar or a theologian, and see it as one vs the other as you have done so here. Has it ever occurred to you that many theologians are also Bible scholars? A fine example is http://richardbauckham.co.uk/

       

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      seems like broinchrist knows a lot of "truth"

      Sarcasm is no substitute for an argument.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      So what's yiur version of salvation?

      Jesus dying on the cross couldn't pay for our sins?


      On the contrary, His death was to atone for the sins of the whole world. It was done, which was why He could say, "It is finished."

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      And I trust buddha to have the right knowledge just like you trust jesus. Is there a problem?


      There is, since both cannot be right at the same time in the same sense over the same issues. It is a problem of truth and logic. I do not have any problem with your choice to trust Buddha.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      Current version of the dictionary right?


      Your point being? That the definition will soon change to mean something else?

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by zeus29:

      According your current understanding, right? 


      According to dictionary.

  • BroInChrist's Avatar
    3,110 posts since Dec '11
    • Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

      No not really... he basically interpreted it in line with modern scientific understandings I think.

      What race are you just wondering? U're from Singapore right?


      I am local Singaporean. Race? Human. Ethnic group is Chinese but my Chinese not that good. Sidetrack a bit. The concept of race has no biological basis at all. Our so-called skin colours aee all different shades of the same pigment called melanin.