RMAF capabilities?
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Air Force fighters mix it up with MiG-29s
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by Senior Airman Bob Purtiman
PENANG, Malaysia (AFNS) -- It's been said imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If that's the case, than the U.S. Air Force and the people at McDonnell Douglas Corp. must like the MiG-29 Fulcrum, which bears a striking resemblance to the F-15 Eagle.
Up until a few years ago, not many people had the opportunity to peek behind the Iron Curtain for a glimpse at the Soviet bloc's top-of-the-line, air-superiority fighter. The MiG-29 was hidden in a shroud of mystery -- until the Berlin Wall came crumbling down and with it, the Iron Curtain.
Since the fall of the curtain, excess Soviet military equipment has become available in large numbers, and aircraft such as the MiG-29 went on the sales block.
For a group of 12th Fighter Squadron pilots from Kadena Air Base, Japan, the shroud lifted recently during Cope West 95 when they flew with and engaged MiG-29s flown by Royal Malaysian Air Force pilots. The exercise marked the first time American pilots have trained with the Fulcrum in the Pacific region.
"We were in a little awe of it because we couldn't believe we had the opportunity to fly against and train with something we've spent the last decade trying to devise methods of defeating," said Lt. Col. Jeffrey McChesney, 12th FS commander. "For a pilot, it was very exciting, kind of like being a kid in the candy store."
For 18th Wing Commander Brig. Gen. William T. Hobbins, a veteran of 25 years in the fighter business, the opportunity to see the aircraft and fly with it is the pinnacle of his flying career.
"I was impressed with the aircraft," he said. "It looks an awful lot like the F-15. From a distance, the visual identification problem is significant. Up close you can tell the difference. Flying against it, you come away with the opinion the aircraft has a lot of power and maneuvering capability.
"We train extensively in the art of aerial warfare and maneuvering against an adversary such as the MiG-29," he added. "So physically seeing it flying next to you, you say to yourself, 'This is the aircraft I've been training to defend against?' and everything comes full circle."
Even though the "Dirty Dozen" pilots only flew one or two sorties against the Fulcrums, they learned lessons that could help in combat someday.
"I learned how I would fight against a MiG-29 if the need arises," Capt. Jeff Gustafson said. "Unfortunately, we didn't get to face them that often. We learned a lot off two sorties, but we could learn much more if we flew against them the entire two weeks."
After two weeks of flying with the MiGs, the Dirty Dozen don't intend to trade in their Eagles.
"This exercise has reaffirmed to me that we have the best-designed plane in the world for air superiority and the best air force to support it," McChesney said. "That fact has been driven home hard."
With the lessons learned and some of the knowledge passed on, many fighter pilots have a better understanding of the Fulcrum.
"The pilots will now be familiar with the aircraft in terms of seeing it, knowing its physical characteristics, how it maneuvers in relation to our tactical exercises and how it employs simulated weapons in aerial combat," Hobbins explained. "That is invaluable to the wing, whose mission is to maintain integrated, deployable, forward-based air power.
"This was an awesome experience for our pilots and maintainers to get a close-up view of the aircraft considered a high-technology rival of ours for the past decade," he added. "Many of us will never forget this unique experience and the friendships we made with our RMAF pilots and maintainers." (Courtesy Pacific Air Forces News Service. Purtiman is assigned to 18th Wing public affairs.)
Sounds like the RMAF Migs got creamed up a bit by the Eagles. -
Actually, the USAF flew against the German AF MiG-29 which is some of the earliest version. The MiG-29 N Malaysia has got is somewhat newer especially in the avionics.
They also have 8 F-18D to boost their capabilities. I think the Migs and the Hornets are not purchase to face RSAF, more likely China. They bought those planes when Spratley was a major issue in the region and at the time where China had some minor incidents with the Phillippines.
Don't forget that RMAF also have 18 Hawk 200 which can compete quite effectively against the F-5S. In terms of quantity and qaulity, I think RSAF is still far more superior than RMAF. -
Actually, the MiG-29N and the German Luftwaffe MiG-29 might be rather similar. The Germans upgraded their fulcrums to NATO standard, and I have a feeling the Malaysians did the same with help from the Germans.
Does anyone know if they have R-27s in their inventory? Or did they recieve sparrows and harpoons along with their "bugs?" -
Yap, but the N version they have some other slightly more advance Russian components, eg. better engine and avionics.Originally posted by Shotgun:Actually, the MiG-29N and the German Luftwaffe MiG-29 might be rather similar. The Germans upgraded their fulcrums to NATO standard, and I have a feeling the Malaysians did the same with help from the Germans.
Definitely not Harpoons. As for the AAMs, I think they are definitely interested in the Addar but like Python 4 and Derby of RSAF, no information out to the public domain yet...
Does anyone know if they have R-27s in their inventory? Or did they recieve sparrows and harpoons along with their "bugs?" -
Hohoho. Malaysia would NEVER buy python4s. They'd rather trade their wives and daughters for more russian R-73 Archers.
Its Malaysia we are talking about here, Muslims and jews never mixed. Israel won't sell them either. -
I think RMAF is definitely looking at Archers and AMRAAMski. They are also looking at Su-30MKI... Will be interesting to see if they really follow up with real actions and RSAF subsequence response....Originally posted by Shotgun:Hohoho. Malaysia would NEVER buy python4s. They'd rather trade their wives and daughters for more russian R-73 Archers.
Its Malaysia we are talking about here, Muslims and jews never mixed. Israel won't sell them either. -
RSAF will follow up with BAe Meteors. Blast them MoFos once they lift their landing gears up.
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Agreed, but the South African will.... SA's technology is from Israel and guess what... Malaysia is buying stuff from Israel indirectly... hee hee hee...Originally posted by Shotgun:Hohoho. Malaysia would NEVER buy python4s. They'd rather trade their wives and daughters for more russian R-73 Archers.
Its Malaysia we are talking about here, Muslims and jews never mixed. Israel won't sell them either.
... and as if Mahathair cares..... -
Thats the only way he can get israeli stuff. Or anything close to it. But guess what, announce this to the public, and the malaysians will start protesting against the government for buying Israeli designed stuff.
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Haven't we seen enuff of the BS stuffs... Indonesian buying ex-Israeli Skyhawks.... Malaysia bought South African G8 Gun/Howitzer... guess where the design came from... Israeli... in fact it is the same gun design as SAF M68 (??? forgot the designation)Originally posted by Shotgun:Thats the only way he can get israeli stuff. Or anything close to it. But guess what, announce this to the public, and the malaysians will start protesting against the government for buying Israeli designed stuff.
So all their BS protest about S'pore getting Israeli made stuffs are just hypocracies -
What else is new? Which is why Singapore never really bothered with them. We do our business, they do theirs.
I just don't understand why our neighbours look at us with so much contempt. -
... and guess what... if they still don't learn to keep their mouth shut and offend the US (just read today's report about the MP wanting to indict the US, read http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,1870,80894,00.html?Originally posted by Shotgun:What else is new? Which is why Singapore never really bothered with them. We do our business, they do theirs.
I just don't understand why our neighbours look at us with so much contempt.
they are going to piss the US soooooo much.... no more superbugs for them. no more amraams.... go and batter trade with the Russians.... hee hee -
Oh yeah, they can DREAM about bringing the US into international courts. They can even DREAM about filing the charges. If they really do file charges, they can DREAM of seeing the Petronas twin towers, cos they won't be there much longer.
They can DREAM about getting parts for their Bugs, as well as help in maintenance. They can FORGET about their superbugs.
With US-Russian Ties warming, they can probably kiss their Flankers and fulcrums goodbye too. They can kiss their Adders goodbye.
What do they say? Selamat Datang! -
Face it, the biggest threat from the RMAF is the 8 Bugs they hve with their precision strike capability. However I do believe they will be the main focus of a pre-emptive strike when it comes to that(Operation Moked Pt II). The -29s are useful aas local defense fighters, but thats basically that. Despite their Adders superior numbers will finally win out, after all they only have 17 left, and 2 are the twin-seaters which have no radar/BVR capability. That leaves 15 MiGs with Adder capability(whether they have the Adders is another tihng), agsinst 70 F-16s and 40+ F-5s....almost 10 to 1 odds, factor in the Hawks and the ratios still almost 3:1. And lets not forget the at least 50+ A-4SUs each toting a pair of AIM-9s if the need arises...Originally posted by Shotgun:Oh yeah, they can DREAM about bringing the US into international courts. They can even DREAM about filing the charges. If they really do file charges, they can DREAM of seeing the Petronas twin towers, cos they won't be there much longer.
They can DREAM about getting parts for their Bugs, as well as help in maintenance. They can FORGET about their superbugs.
With US-Russian Ties warming, they can probably kiss their Flankers and fulcrums goodbye too. They can kiss their Adders goodbye.
What do they say? Selamat Datang!
Hawks...wouldn't bother about them. Trainers trying to be fighters....thats what they are. -
Precision strike capabilities? Has the US sold them any laser guided bombs or such? Any AGM-62 Walleyes?
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Don't know... but can't rule out that they already have acquired PGMs. Be it Russians, South Africans or even the Americans ones....Originally posted by Shotgun:Precision strike capabilities? Has the US sold them any laser guided bombs or such? Any AGM-62 Walleyes?
I also read a commentary about quality vs quantity.... the conclusion is that quality can only fully subsitute quantitative edge.... Had Warsaw fought NATO, NATO could not guarantee that they could push Warsaw forces back to the demarcation line, not to say repel them and invade East German and the rest....
As for RSAF vs RMAF (force to force comparision), quality comparison is rought on par. One can argument if Vipers are better than F-18 in dogfights/strike missions, or Vipers armed with Python 4 is as good as Fulcrums with R-77, Amraam/Sparrow vs Adder/Amraamski... overall, they are about on par...
As for quantity.... RSAF has 69 Vipers (probably more), 40+ Tigers, 50+ Skyhawks vs RMAF 17 Fulcrums, 8 bugs, 39(?) 100/200 Hawks
RSAF definitely has the quantity edge...
In short, RSAF will win.... -
They do have the PAVEWAY IIs.... in limited quantitiesthough, i believe
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They do have the PAVEWAY IIs.... in limited quantities though, i believe
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I dunno about the Walleyes and Paveway IIs, but IIRC the Hornet package came with Harpoons, Sidewinders and Sparrows.Originally posted by Shotgun:Precision strike capabilities? Has the US sold them any laser guided bombs or such? Any AGM-62 Walleyes? -
Russian PGMs? I suppose it for the MiG-29s? I hate to say this, but even with the radar upgrade, the RMAF MiGs precision strike capability is zilch, zero, nada. Short of dropping a few dumb bombs and firing unguided rockets, they're little use as A/G platforms. The only aircraft having that is the Hornet, thats why I believe that if push comes to shove, the 8 Bugs at Butterworth will the first to get the F-16 Baygon treatment.Originally posted by Joe Black:Don't know... but can't rule out that they already have acquired PGMs. Be it Russians, South Africans or even the Americans ones....
I also read a commentary about quality vs quantity.... the conclusion is that quality can only fully subsitute quantitative edge.... Had Warsaw fought NATO, NATO could not guarantee that they could push Warsaw forces back to the demarcation line, not to say repel them and invade East German and the rest....
As for RSAF vs RMAF (force to force comparision), quality comparison is rought on par. One can argument if Vipers are better than F-18 in dogfights/strike missions, or Vipers armed with Python 4 is as good as Fulcrums with R-77, Amraam/Sparrow vs Adder/Amraamski... overall, they are about on par...
As for quantity.... RSAF has 69 Vipers (probably more), 40+ Tigers, 50+ Skyhawks vs RMAF 17 Fulcrums, 8 bugs, 39(?) 100/200 Hawks
RSAF definitely has the quantity edge...
In short, RSAF will win....
Qualitatively, I'd say its an almost dead heat in equipment. Our qualitative edge is from our pilots, where the RMAF fly flight sims due to lack of $$$, we mix it up with the best from around the world at Red/Green Flag, Maple Flag, ODAX, Pitch Black, Cope Thunder, Commando Sling, Combat Archer and what have you...
BTW last I've heard they had 28 less 3 or 4 Hawks.... -
I concur.Originally posted by Viper52:Russian PGMs? I suppose it for the MiG-29s? I hate to say this, but even with the radar upgrade, the RMAF MiGs precision strike capability is zilch, zero, nada. Short of dropping a few dumb bombs and firing unguided rockets, they're little use as A/G platforms.
I think you are right... I can now vaguely recall something like they had bought 28, 18 Hawk 200 and 10 Hawk 100, or was it the other way round. Anyway, a couple has since crashed.
The only aircraft having that is the Hornet, thats why I believe that if push comes to shove, the 8 Bugs at Butterworth will the first to get the F-16 Baygon treatment.
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ha ha ha..
Your comment made me laugh my tummy off.... yeah... the Baygon treatment... ha ha...[quote]
BTW last I've heard they had 28 less 3 or 4 Hawks....
I will still give the Hawks a bit of respect given that the RAF use them for secondary air defence. At least the Hawk 200 is equipped with APG-66 radar and decent avionics. -
Hmm since they only "officially" have harpoons and sidewinders, their Bugs don't really have precision strike capability since they don't have precision strike weapons. Unless someone can confirm the PavewayII.
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I remember seeing that from a reputable source, cannot remember which one though... so I believe that we can take it that they have PAVEWAY IIs.
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I was wonderin if they had a precision strike aircraft without precision strike munitions. Hehehehe.
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er...ppl forgetting about the Mavericks that RSAF have...last i heard, they are still pretty solid...and let's face it, the Hawk is not a transonic plane...dogfighting may usually be carried out in the subsonic envelope, but still, it gives the edge in gettting "there the fastest with the mostest" (from Patton), and in gettin out of 'jail' when the need arises...