You want Casino?
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Integrated Casino? Is it just a pipe dream? How would the government propose to integrate? Integrate to which sectors?
Although there have been severall announcements that Singapore's casino if set up will be an integrated casino, this may be just a make-belief to persuade people to agree to the idea.
Where is the call centre or master economic re-structuring plan to assure that there will be full spin-offs to all industries to use casino indeed to stimulate the moribund economy. Domestic sector is now dead or dying from high costs.
Some questions on integration:
(1) Is integration or hubbing equal to sum of the partsshown in the plan?
(2) If our casino is only benefitting tourism and entertainments, is that what they call integrated casino or hubbing?
(3) Where is the master mind of master plan to do all the practical and call-centre fully structured integration or hubbing?
Without drawing up clearly established whole families entertainment and provide total facilities and call centres to integrate to all-industry business operations to attract global businessmen, Singapore will be just like any other gambling cities.
We already have certain advantages in industries like oil, petroleum, bio-tech, logistics, air-travel, sea cruises and many more. Where is the integration to motivate locals to get connected to foreign investors to establish up- and down-stream business activities with call-centre linkages?
Do we have process management to create spin-offs, wheeling and dealing. Real entrepreneurs go around to smell deals to create tie-ups to their principal activities. Do our officers have these smell sensors?
Tourism, leisures and entertainment businesses will not benefit from spin-offs from casino businesses if they are not linked operationally.
Businessmen will not come unless EDB/MTI/TDB have all the necessary connections and networks connected to on-going trades, commerce and services of businessmen seeking expansions to this region in tie-ups or local investments.
How will EDB/MTI/TDB integrate travelers and businessmen through one-stop call centre for exchanges or conferences to synergise various activities.
So it is doubtful at this stage to see casino being integrated to create real spin-offs in terms of hubbing to all businesses, not even tourism and entertainment. There is no point in having a casino.
It will only create social problems for future generations because of uncertainty in creating business benefits and jobs. -
Casino will bring tourist money and create more jobs for Singaporeans. People who cannot control themselves go bankrupt because of gambling can only blame themselves.
GMS bery rich so can be armchair critic score cheap political points in casino issue. Spare a thought for the jobless people out there. -
We already have certain advantages in industries like oil, petroleum, bio-tech, logistics, air-travel, sea cruises and many more. Where is the integration to motivate locals to get connected to foreign investors to establish up- and down-stream business activities with call-centre linkages?
Well, they have manage to gave us "certain advantages" like oil, petroleum, bio-tech, logistics, air-travel, sea cruises and many more. Why start to doubt regarding tis area ? The reply is just on saying singapore is not capable enough to handle an integrated casino. So u suggest we shouldn't do anything new and stick with everything old ? We should stick to our old ways and not venture out in any area ? Maybe we should give up on bio research since we r not capable of handling bio research as well. We might as well give up on any proposed new ideas to be safe.
We can only know if we at least try isn't it ? We shouldn't give up by trying to imagine problems to it. -
May be you should read my earlier post on what a world-class casino should consist of and the previous post again. I supported a casino being set up to stimulate Singapore business hubs. I realize however that there is no sufficient strategy to integrate it to our business hubs in oils, petro-chemical or bio-tech hubs which I recommended. Without a economic master plan for example, how to bring about the integration of casino to benefit the economy as a whole. So how to call it an integrated casino..Originally posted by stupidissmart:Well, they have manage to gave us "certain advantages" like oil, petroleum, bio-tech, logistics, air-travel, sea cruises and many more. Why start to doubt regarding tis area ? The reply is just on saying singapore is not capable enough to handle an integrated casino. So u suggest we shouldn't do anything new and stick with everything old ? We should stick to our old ways and not venture out in any area ? Maybe we should give up on bio research since we r not capable of handling bio research as well. We might as well give up on any proposed new ideas to be safe.
We can only know if we at least try isn't it ? We shouldn't give up by trying to imagine problems to it.
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Hello, all forumers,
As the ministers have said that "the government can do without a casino if casino operators' proposals do not meet certain prerequisites"
Such statements are ambiqious and do not show accountability and transparency to concerned citizens.
My questions are:
ADVANTAGES:
Are they so overwhelming that Singapore can swop for the social fallouts like increases in crimes, indebtedness, moral and social degradation and lowering of standards for upbringing of children.
Are the ministers willing to come out with a long-overdue economic master plan like the Urban Redevelopment Master Plan to oversee the entire economic restructuring with casino as catalyst to generate vibrancy and create business and investment spin-offs to all industries.
There is no sign of any practical and sustenable integration to create business and investment opportunities to benefit all. Without practical integration or leaving integration to be worked out by the bureaucrats, will the casino achieve the primary purpose - integration to business hubs.
DISADVANTAGES:
There are distinctly many disadvantages and social problems can become immense in time to come. Is the government expecting the problems to get solved by themselves or along the way like the worksite safety problems which led to highway collapse.
Good decisions are good only when there is a high degree of probability of follow-through implementation with proper process management taking care of problems, convincing evaluations of costs and benefits. As scholars the ministers should not just make judgmental decisions, they should be accountable and transparent with confident implementation, costs and benefits analysis. Just by saying that "we will be studying all the plans and feedbacks before going ahead with casino is not a good decision or good governance."
This casino issue allows the leaders another opportunity to show its accountability and transparency in governance. If they say that they are now open, accountable and transparent, show the master plan and evaluation of costs and benefits and get people to support the decision based on facts.
If the people see the facts crucial to decision in this instance and are unconvinced, say by way of sufficient poll, will the leaders still keep its promise to "do without the casino? -
I refer to media reports that the government is formally inviting potential investors to submit their concept plans to build an integrated casino resort in Singapore, and has unveiled a list of minimum social safeguards to mitigate the ill-effects of gaming.
Among the safeguards, Singapore citizens and permanent residents will have to pay membership fees to use the casino facilities at $100 a day or $2,000 a year.
I spoke to a few friends and their response was
...might as well pay $2,000 and then I will be encouraged if not in a way forced to go as often as possible - make full use of it - kiasu you know!
...wah! If my foreign friends come and want to go, I cannot say I cannot afford $100 - lau kui! (no face)
...most people will surely want to go at least once for the experience and be able to say that I have been to the casino, but since must pay $100, maybe will place bigger bets just to recover the fee. So, actually more people may end up losing more money than if there was no entrance fee!
...not fair! How can the lower income be like second class citizens? You mean only the rich can be lucky?
...how can? The very basis of being a citizen is that I have better benefits than a foreigner, so how can a citizen be in a way discriminated. If I am a hapitual gambler, might as well give up my citizenship!
...if don't have $100 or $2,000 no problem! Just borrow to pay first. If I want to gamble, borrowing $100 or $2,000 will not deter me. Since have to borrow, must place bigger bets to get at least the entrance fee plus the loan interest back!
...are there any other countries in the world that charge their citizens more to enter the casino? Wah piang! Like another ERP or COE! Who keeps the fees? The casino operators or the Ministry for Casinos?
...in Malaysia, I understand that bumis cannot go in. Such a policy may be better as its simple to have a complete ban. If as I understand it about 75 per cent of the locals in Malaysia cannot enter the casino, and they still make so much profits, why can't Singapore do the same as after all I understand that about 1 out of 5 at any one time in Singapore is a foreigner.
...no wonder the casino operators have expressed surprise about the proposed guidelines, because maybe nobody else has done it this way. So, I think they will just factor in the restrictions and charge people more or give worse odds of winning to gamblers. I understand that in some states in the United States, the gaming commission ensures that the casinos' profits are limited and reasonable and reflected in the odds given to gamblers.
...investors may scale back and invest less than originally planned. This may actually reduce the economic benefits to Singapore of having casinos, which is after all the main reason why Singapore is considering whether to allow casinos.
...for the conveniece, $100 or $2,000 is OK compared to going to Genting, Batam or the cruise.
Perhaps the best way to evaluate whether to take a chance on casinos for Singapore, is to hold a public forum and ask what people would likely do, rather than arbitrarily balancing what is morally or economically right or wrong, and leaving it to casino investors to figure out what proposals to make under the safeguard limitations.
The way the casino issue is unfolding is in a sense a reflection of how the bureaucracy thinks versus the entrepreneurial mindset.
Instead of setting the social safeguards, the casino investors should be given an open and free hand to come up with proposals that address Singaporeans' social concerns and be at the same time economically viable and beneficial.
Leong Sze Hian -
look at my signature and try to understand what good there is from attempting to strangle any moral choice from people. they need to make their own decisions, know their own limits.. life is full of gambles anyway, when taken with a pinch of salt, things will be fine. most people should learn this by now. there's no point in being a overly stringent state. you are a truly thinking human when you have many choices available to you and you can make the wisest one.Originally posted by goh meng seng:It is strange indeed. Nobody in his right mind would want their children to be gamblers but there are people who would support Casino!
Never mind about that. For those who want a casino here, have you done your research thoroughly? Don't just write off "social cost" so easily; PAP knows they could not argue against the apparent high "social cost", thus, they just say it is not about social cost vs economic gains. That's cool and neat but simply put it, they are just sweeping the dirt below the carpet!
Of course, with a twist, they say it is about OUR MATURITY as a society! Cool. Nobody wants to be seen as "immature" and not agreeing to have a Casino would be seen as "IMMATURE"! Hahaha. That's strange. If you know the odds of losing in a casino, any MATURE human being will not be visiting the casino! Then, the most important question to ask is, why have a casino in the very first place to hoodwink those "IMMATURE" ones?
I would suggest for those who thinks Casino could bring in all the monies, do some research first. Try to do a search on googles with "NGISC", short form for "National Gambling Impact Studies Commission". This is a study commissioned by the world's most liberal govt on earth, USA. See for yourselves what's in it for us if we go ahead with a casino.
And strategically speaking, we will all become suckers in the end of the day. I will touch on this later.
Goh Meng Seng -
May be you should read my earlier post on what a world-class casino should consist of and the previous post again. I supported a casino being set up to stimulate Singapore business hubs. I realize however that there is no sufficient strategy to integrate it to our business hubs in oils, petro-chemical or bio-tech hubs which I recommended. Without a economic master plan for example, how to bring about the integration of casino to benefit the economy as a whole. So how to call it an integrated casino..
I think u r asking for something really strange... a casino is to link it with tourism business and NOT with oil, petroleum-chemical or bio tech areas. Why need to link casinoes with these fields ?!?!? So should all our future investments MUST LINK with these 3 business ? Do we have to put all our eggs into the same 3 baskets ? I don't really think tis is an interesting issue to consider...Are they so overwhelming that Singapore can swop for the social fallouts like increases in crimes, indebtedness, moral and social degradation and lowering of standards for upbringing of children.
R our social problem going to be so overwhelming tat we should give up on a possible lucrative business which can improve on our tourism ?Good decisions are good only when there is a high degree of probability of follow-through implementation with proper process management taking care of problems, convincing evaluations of costs and benefits. As scholars the ministers should not just make judgmental decisions, they should be accountable and transparent with confident implementation, costs and benefits analysis. Just by saying that "we will be studying all the plans and feedbacks before going ahead with casino is not a good decision or good governance."
If u ask me... I think tat all the government in the world tat had already implemented casinoes offer roughly the same details to the answer of casinoes... especially when it is still within the planning phasesInstead of setting the social safeguards, the casino investors should be given an open and free hand to come up with proposals that address Singaporeans' social concerns and be at the same time economically viable and beneficial.
U r right.. I don't think setting up a $100 or $2000 fee for entering a casino is sensible. But if we r forced to set up some barriers for the more conservative people, wat do u propose ? -
What i do know is if a casino open in Singapore,with that $100 admission fees,i am not going to gamble inside.I rather choose Genting Highlands n Batam than Singapore Casino,moreover i can leave this stressful Singapore n go for a tour abroad also,why must i gamble in here,right?
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The primary objective of setting a casino is not to make monies for the government or to create a class society.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U r right.. I don't think setting up a $100 or $2000 fee for entering a casino is sensible. But if we r forced to set up some barriers for the more conservative people, wat do u propose ?
Remember, for too long, Singapore government only knows how to collect monies and make monies for itself. Monies are important but there should be no obsessiveness in making monies for itself. At the end, the whole society gets very materialistic and uncaring.
Skip the collections of admission charges. Let all citizens feel welcome to the casino but let the regulations be applied fairly and firmly to minimize over-betting or addiction so that anyone detected can be advised to seek counseling. After all it is based on the rationale that Singaporeans have now matured as a people that the casino is now being allowed by the government. Let the locals or PRs be subject to the same rule and let them know clearly that they will be subject to monitoring during gambling. Gambling at your own risk sign should be prominently displayed all over the place. After a while Singaporeans will understand that they are being treated as adults and the whole society can go forward from here. Who want to gamble and lose monies only a small minority nowadays are addicted to gambling. -
The primary objective of setting a casino is not to make monies for the government or to create a class society.
Sadly, a lot of people felt tat the most important role of gov is to make money or create more jobs. Only when a nation is rich will they be able to listen and afford to be more gracious... I believe 10 years ago, the people here r less caring than now
Remember, for too long, Singapore government only knows how to collect monies and make monies for itself. Monies are important but there should be no obsessiveness in making monies for itself. At the end, the whole society gets very materialistic and uncaring.Skip the collections of admission charges. Let all citizens feel welcome to the casino but let the regulations be applied fairly and firmly to minimize over-betting or addiction so that anyone detected can be advised to seek counseling. After all it is based on the rationale that Singaporeans have now matured as a people that the casino is now being allowed by the government. Let the locals or PRs be subject to the same rule and let them know clearly that they will be subject to monitoring during gambling. Gambling at your own risk sign should be prominently displayed all over the place. After a while Singaporeans will understand that they are being treated as adults and the whole society can go forward from here. Who want to gamble and lose monies only a small minority nowadays are addicted to gambling.
Tis is kinda of tricky also since how do we monitor and how to gauge if a person is over betting... How to persuade a gambler to stop if he is losing and felt totally sore about it... Risk sign acts little... I used to see tons of no smoking signs in a pub or dance hall and no one even notice... -
Focus not on the income, job creation and buzz but the impact of gambling
addiction on lives, family and society.
http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/gambling/gitus/a0028977.cfm
Can't we keep Singapore a smoke-free, drug-free, porn-free AND gambling-free
clean city? To say other cities are making millions from it and we should do join the fray is literally abandoning our values and embracing the social ills for $$$.
And if the argument for the ills is based on maturity and freedom of choice to the consumer to decide for themselves, then we could easily see drugs and pornography as long as it makes loads of $$$!
This is completely dangerous path for Singapore imo.
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How is smoking different from gambling addiction?
After all the damage smoking has done to smokers and non-smokers,
we now hear the authorities legislating bans aggressively against smoking.
Haven't they learn from the damages of smoking?
Similar damages will happen to gamblers and non-gamblers in the future
and will mere aggressive banning legislation fix it all?
I repeat again - be mindful, not mindless where we'll be 10 years down the road. -
Focus not on the income, job creation and buzz but the impact of gambling addiction on lives, family and society.
We need to see the pros and cons of a change to see if it is necessaryCan't we keep Singapore a smoke-free, drug-free, porn-free AND gambling-free
We r already not a gambling free country. Without money, there will be more social ills in society.
clean city? To say other cities are making millions from it and we should do join the fray is literally abandoning our values and embracing the social ills for $$$.And if the argument for the ills is based on maturity and freedom of choice to the consumer to decide for themselves, then we could easily see drugs and pornography as long as it makes loads of $$$!
porn and drugs won't make any country rich. The effects of porn isn't tat great... If more people want porn, then it should be legalised. The decisions from the majority of the people should be respectedAfter all the damage smoking has done to smokers and non-smokers,
do they ban cigerrettes ?
we now hear the authorities legislating bans aggressively against smoking. -
Bro, I fully agree with you!!!!Originally posted by SnowFlag:Comparing 4D, toto with Casino is like comparing
house cat with lion
Betting 4D and ToTo are different from gambling in Casino. I am a 4D&ToTocrazy, however there's still a limit on betting. Cos, the pros and cons can easily weigh. For casino gambling is entirely different!!! The moment you started it, you will get incredible addicted. The bets are whether you win or lose in just split seconds only when the banker opens the cards. I was a victim before when I went to cruise at SUN VIVA 2. I lost my entire saving and over lost become indebt with credit cards Co. That moment I was very down and also thought of committing suicide.
For betting on 4D or ToTo, Most of us are likely to set a limit.
When you are at the Casino on the table gambling, most of us are unable selfcontrol. Gambling in casino will definitely lose much much much more compare to betting 4D or ToTo.
I am telling those who support Casino that these are the facts. Don't get fooled or to fool people when you are now shadowed by the benefits under the arms of.... -
Agreed that 4D & ToTo is gambling. But most of us have limit with betting in this senario.Originally posted by KumSioJui:snowflag wat bird toking u? isn't that 4D and toto not gambling?
Then CAO share debacle with USD550million overnight gambling losses when compares to casino is wat Goliath and a house Lion, ban the stock exchange then since it's so dangerous.
Then venturing into business is also a gamble wah... but of course is a calculated risk..... likewise 4D & ToTo is also calculated risk too...
But when one gets into casino, calculated risk???...... quite doubtful.
CAO that bastard was trusted by Temasek played out investors by trading in futures comodities. How come that bastard was discretionary to trade beyond limit...? Who is responsible??? I suggested that SGX should be responsible for the lost incurred to investors. Who put the advertisement on newspapers to lure investors? Who in this world can ban the SGX?????
It always not their fault wah....The only response is...Investors got to be more careful in investing foreign stocks....from here we shall learn a lesson...... What the hell is this....??man. -
Then you bring a million dollars to 4D outlets to bet loh.... if you can afford to bring a million dollars to bet at 4D outlets then you must be a insane!!! For me, I will retire and sit one side to watch the selfishness and ugly sides of human being.Originally posted by stupidissmart:why do u classify casino as tiger while 4D as cat ? U can bet 1 million dollars at 4D too isn't it ? How do u classify horse racing and soccer betting ? It can make people jian po ren wang too isn't it ? -
Then you bring a million dollars to 4D outlets to bet loh.... if you can afford to bring a million dollars to bet at 4D outlets then you must be a insane!!! For me, I will retire and sit one side to watch the selfishness and ugly sides of human being.Originally posted by stupidissmart:why do u classify casino as tiger while 4D as cat ? U can bet 1 million dollars at 4D too isn't it ? How do u classify horse racing and soccer betting ? It can make people jian po ren wang too isn't it ?
How many rich people bet 4D????? Those betting are mostly people like me.... who lives in pressure of telephone, utilities, conservancy, income tax, GST, property, educational, medical, insurance, household expenses, personal expense, children expenses, and so on..... -
If every one like you and only gamble once in a blue moon, Casino will have to scale down no more world class for Singapore.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't
wat is tat ? -
These show that you've not your survey or studies adequately on casinos.Originally posted by stupidissmart:wat r the questions u wanna ask ?
There are thousands of casinos in Combodia, mostly are owned semi government.
Batam also have casinossss.
And so.....on -
Can u ask the goverment on behalf on Siongaporen. What benefits can we have as commoners??? If they (gov) dare to commit and be accepted by us (commoners); no question, we will not utter a word more and to support the ideal of having Casino in Singapore.Originally posted by vito_corleone:honestly, if casinos promise a 20% tax...that'll be enough. 
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We matured Siongaporen??? Wah..!!! Then we should have strips show in nightclubs as well.Originally posted by robertteh:The primary objective of setting a casino is not to make monies for the government or to create a class society.
Remember, for too long, Singapore government only knows how to collect monies and make monies for itself. Monies are important but there should be no obsessiveness in making monies for itself. At the end, the whole society gets very materialistic and uncaring.
Skip the collections of admission charges. Let all citizens feel welcome to the casino but let the regulations be applied fairly and firmly to minimize over-betting or addiction so that anyone detected can be advised to seek counseling. After all it is based on the rationale that Singaporeans have now matured as a people that the casino is now being allowed by the government. Let the locals or PRs be subject to the same rule and let them know clearly that they will be subject to monitoring during gambling. Gambling at your own risk sign should be prominently displayed all over the place. After a while Singaporeans will understand that they are being treated as adults and the whole society can go forward from here. Who want to gamble and lose monies only a small minority nowadays are addicted to gambling. 
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We matured Siongaporen??? Wah..!!! Then we should have strips show in nightclubs as well.Originally posted by robertteh:The primary objective of setting a casino is not to make monies for the government or to create a class society.
Remember, for too long, Singapore government only knows how to collect monies and make monies for itself. Monies are important but there should be no obsessiveness in making monies for itself. At the end, the whole society gets very materialistic and uncaring.
Skip the collections of admission charges. Let all citizens feel welcome to the casino but let the regulations be applied fairly and firmly to minimize over-betting or addiction so that anyone detected can be advised to seek counseling. After all it is based on the rationale that Singaporeans have now matured as a people that the casino is now being allowed by the government. Let the locals or PRs be subject to the same rule and let them know clearly that they will be subject to monitoring during gambling. Gambling at your own risk sign should be prominently displayed all over the place. After a while Singaporeans will understand that they are being treated as adults and the whole society can go forward from here. Who want to gamble and lose monies only a small minority nowadays are addicted to gambling. -
We matured Siongaporen??? Wah..!!! Then we should have strips show in nightclubs as well.Originally posted by robertteh:The primary objective of setting a casino is not to make monies for the government or to create a class society.
Remember, for too long, Singapore government only knows how to collect monies and make monies for itself. Monies are important but there should be no obsessiveness in making monies for itself. At the end, the whole society gets very materialistic and uncaring.
Skip the collections of admission charges. Let all citizens feel welcome to the casino but let the regulations be applied fairly and firmly to minimize over-betting or addiction so that anyone detected can be advised to seek counseling. After all it is based on the rationale that Singaporeans have now matured as a people that the casino is now being allowed by the government. Let the locals or PRs be subject to the same rule and let them know clearly that they will be subject to monitoring during gambling. Gambling at your own risk sign should be prominently displayed all over the place. After a while Singaporeans will understand that they are being treated as adults and the whole society can go forward from here. Who want to gamble and lose monies only a small minority nowadays are addicted to gambling.
We Singapore, are we going to be an educational centre or gambling centre??????
Why are our gov promoting gambling now; or they have forgotten their initial plan to have a world class educational centre???? Very funny. I am confuse..... -
Betting 4D and ToTo are different from gambling in Casino
How about gambling in turf clubs, genting, cruise ships, gamblign online and jackpot machines in country club. Why not pick at them ?I suggested that SGX should be responsible for the lost incurred to investors.
U probably hate the gov a lot. But not all its policies r wrongThen you bring a million dollars to 4D outlets to bet loh....
it is a possibility. And u forgot about the turf clubs in singapore.Can u ask the goverment on behalf on Siongaporen. What benefits can we have as commoners???
When the gov had money, it meant singaporean had money. When it don't have money, it meant singaporean had to pay more tax to make it become sustainableWe matured Siongaporen??? Wah..!!! Then we should have strips show in nightclubs as well.
We do have bar top dancing.....We Singapore, are we going to be an educational centre or gambling centre??????
Havng a world class education and a casino or independent events. The country with the most reputable universities like america, british, japan and even australia have casinoes. Unless u r aiming to be world class education for primary schools....
Why are our gov promoting gambling now; or they have forgotten their initial plan to have a world class educational centre???? Very funny.