ya. it is current taiwan garmen fault. they want to play who blink first with china to show its younger population they got balls. also trying to force US hand. once ah bian open mouth abt indpendence, china sure tulan and roar. then US sure will warn China dun anyhow sabre rattle or flex muslces. taiwan play both sides.Originally posted by pearlie27:Originally posted by David Mars:
2) Taiwan has never, in the last 1 or 2 decades, advocated war to solve the differences between herself and China.
Yes, but it, or rather ah bian, has advocated independence, which is equivalent to the declaration of war to China!
3) China, however, returned by stating that it will not give up the use of force on Taiwan and continues, to this day, to increase the number of missiles pointed at Taiwan (abt 700 RIGHT THIS MOMENT) and continues to expand its military.
if I don't remeber wrongly, the missiles pointing was a direct result of ah bian's call to pass a law for Taiwan to address itself as Taiwan and not the Republic of China
4) China entices Taiwan businesspeople to invest there with the econimical rewards due to the huge market there, and on the other hand, continues to place missiles to point at Taiwan, re-stating the so called 'One China' policy, restating it will not give up the use of force and even enacted an anti-Secession Law.
It is all ah bian's fault
6) China claims Taiwan as part of its territory when PRC has never ever governed or set foot on Taiwan. China talks about 'national sovereignty and territorial integrity' when citing reason to take Taiwan. BS. If Taiwan today is underdeveloped and not in the strategic position that it is, will China bother?
But that of course! Aren't there plenty of e.g. of countries fighting tooth and nail when useful resources are found in dubious territories?
7) some Chinese have said to me that Taiwan and China both are Chinese countries, Chinese should unite. But does uniting means all becoming one nation? EU is not just one nation, it is a nation of nations. And if all Chinese should unite into one country, Singapore and China should merge since it is about 3/4 Chinese?
The relationship between Taiwan and China is different from that of Europe. Your last question is too far-fetched!
8 ) China has a choice with war. Singapore FM George Yeo once said in UN that any move towards Taiwan independence will lead to regional instability and troubles. That view is skewed because ultimately who holds the button to launch the missiles, China does. So does China have a choice?
Don't know what is your stand leh? So does China has a choice or not?
9) Taiwanese have to see it clear now, that China has no intention, or less intention to negotiate with Taiwan unless Taiwan recognises that itself is a part of China. So if they want the democracy and freedom in Taiwan now, they must be ready to defend it.
If Taiwan softens, China will take it for granted. Look at what happened when President Chen tried to extend olive branches, China just will not budge, missiles keep increasing, military keep expanding, not giving up use of force and now Anti- Secession Law. Taiwan should not back down anymore and should really review its China policy, especially on allowing businesses to invest in China. It is well known that Chinese Govt. make things difficult for Taiwan firms doing businss in China if they support President Chen or Taiwan independence and China still advocates that politics and economics be separated. Back when Lee Teng Hui was president, he was the only one who dared to shout back and take tough stances against China and US or anyone else. He was sometimes crude and undiplmoatic, but that, unfortunately, is the only way to deal with China.
ah bian extending olive branches? He only backed down when he lost support at home.
you really think lee teng hui actually dare to take tough stances agst China, US and anyone else?
Anyway, the situation now and during lee teng hui's time is completely different .
If you denounce the US intervention in the Taiwan Straits, and claim that the choice should be left to China and Taiwan, then isn't your own calls for unification ironical? I am assuming from your nick that you are Singaporean.Originally posted by sgdiehard:... Who is to say if China and Taiwan should or should not be united? not singaporean or any outsiders!!
The point I was trying to make was not the events before and leading to the separation.My only wish is to see no war between the two sides. If a minority group of politicians in Taiwan were to disregard history and feeling of the Chinese people, I say they are looking for trouble and they will get it.
Wishes of the people of Taiwan? tell me who in Taiwan wish for an independent taiwan? Ah pian and his group, Lee Teng Hui, ....who else?? Even KMT, the archrival of the communists, is not in favour of an independent Taiwan. [/quote]
Nobody wants war. Even the US. When the situation turned tense, the US lobbied for Chen to tone down. For all the sabre rattling, I see China working towards halting seperatism than working on reunification at the present.
What is the Chinese feeling you are talking about? From which sources are you able to accurately know the feelings of the Taiwanese population, and know that they want to be unified with China?Quoting Malaysia and Singapore is totally out of question and it shows a lack of understanding of history of China. Singapore was part of the Malaysian Federation and was ejected out. Its founding as an independent country is recognised by the Malaysian government.
Americans are being driven by their interests - that's the same for every other country. They are neither the first, the last, or the only country that pursues their interests - while talking big from moral high ground.Do you believe the Americans would choose course of actions that will not benefit them? Even treaty like the Kyoto Protocol has no US participation because they believe it does not benefit them. You are entitled to your belief.
The American threatened but never fire one single shot to stop the communists from crossing over to Taiwan. Communists were land fighter and even today they are no good at naval or amphibious warfare. Americans were never in, so there is no pulling out. War will only break out if Taiwan declares independence, not when "If America was to pull out completely now".
Bloodshed and destruction as a result of the clashes of the ideologies are better seen during the Korean war and the vietnam war. The Malayan Communists had no change to do much damage. But we need to change with times, China is hardly the communist country with the original ideology. Is the stand-off at the Taiwan Straits a check on Communist advancement??? Hardly.
At the time of Malaysian independance, the chinese population was indeed large.Originally posted by drawer:Bravo,well said there.And talking about Malaysian communist,last time i had read a book about the population of Chinese in Malaysia during the WW2 n before Malaysia gain independence.You know last time before WW2,the population of Chinese in Malaysia is actually more than those Malays.But during WW2,alot of them were massacred by those Japanese.And later on,those Malaysian Chinese communist arise to oppose British rules n that brought on more Chinese die during that period.I think if those 2 occasions never appear,it will be we Chinese to rule Malaysia n not Malay.
Actually Lou Lee when young that time also know that communist are too aggressive n extreme when comes to political issue,n their ideas are not practical.But when Lou Lee grow old,he suddenly show interest in communism due to his crave for power.......This show that sometimes when a person grow older,it is not neccessary that his thinking will advance as well,it will sometimes go backward.....sad.......
huh? sure or not, or revisionist conspiracy theory? got source?Originally posted by bumbleb:At the time of Malaysian independance, the chinese population was indeed large.
When Singapore asked to join the federation, the large Chinese population here threatened to upset the racial balance overall.
To protect the political dominance of Malays, Sabah and Sarawak with their predominately Malay population was added together to form the 11 state Federation of Malaysia.
Together with the 2 additions, the Chinese population was once again a minority - which was the only situation acceptable to the Malaysian leadership.
I am a Singaporean and my understanding of Chinese history tells me that Taiwan is part of China and not an independent country. I am not advocating that they should be united now, remains status quo or come under one country two systems. When and how, probable time will tell. But I strongly believe that it is for the Chinese, mainland and Taiwanese (aboriginals, local province and from other provinces) to decide and outsiders like USA and Japan should stay clear.Originally posted by bumbleb:If you denounce the US intervention in the Taiwan Straits, and claim that the choice should be left to China and Taiwan, then isn't your own calls for unification ironical? I am assuming from your nick that you are Singaporean.
Pan Green under Chen has been running a clear separatist platform. In the last election they won. Seems to me that at least half of the Taiwanese did not favor unification with China.
What does unification means? taiwan becomes part of china under communist rule? certainly not, and even the communists know that it won't work!! Much has been talked about one country two systems, the three linkages were part of the moves towards finally merging the two into one. Commercial and cultural merges have been in progress. Taiwanese are very much involved. Only Taiwanese civil servants are not allowed to travel in China and we don't need any statistics to tell us that the Chinese want to be united.Nobody wants war. Even the US. When the situation turned tense, the US lobbied for Chen to tone down. For all the sabre rattling, I see China working towards halting seperatism than working on reunification at the present.
What is the Chinese feeling you are talking about? From which sources are you able to accurately know the feelings of the Taiwanese population, and know that they want to be unified with China?
At least you agree that the Americans are not supporting Taiwan from the "moral high ground", they "are being driven by their interests", not because of their "promise". What are the Americans interests in protecting Taiwan?Americans are being driven by their interests - that's the same for every other country. They are neither the first, the last, or the only country that pursues their interests - while talking big from moral high ground.
To be fair to the American's, the KMT under Chiang was a spectacular failure. If not for the repeated support of the Americans, the KMT might have folded long ago. What did the American's owe Chiang - whose corruption and ineptitude was legendary? The fight between the CCP and the KMT was essentially a Chinese civil war, and in this civil war the Americans have intervened and supported the KMT - who lost the war, and not the Americans.
Nevertheless, I believed that the Americans presence was a deterrence to the CCP, sufficient that they did leave Formosa alone. The Americans also promised the Taiwanese protection against a Chinese invasion - it is following this promise that America is closely drawn into the affairs of the Taiwanese Straits.
War with the MCP was closer to the Malaysian and rightly they should feel greater impact. But in terms of bloodshed and destruction, are we not seeing more of that in the Korean war and Vietnam war? does it means the millions who died in these two wars became insignificant just because it is not near to us? I wonder how many in Malaysia would challenge that.I am sure there are many in Malaysia who would challenge the above. Neverthelessly, the MCP was significant because it was near. The impact could be felt, all the way to the infiltration of communist elements into Singapore, and the resulting riots and disruptions that were caused.
Read the Taiwanese new papers, watch the Taiwanese TV programs, past and present, if you conclude that this is democracy at its best and it is something we can emulate, it is up to you.In what way did the ruling party and the Taiwanese media make a mockery of democracy? Please elaborate.
Many Singaporeans emigrate too. And Americans too. So how did you reach the conclusion that a large portion of the Taiwanese emigration was a result of the political system in Taiwan being dysfunctional ?
How did you reach the conclusion that the common Taiwanese look upon China as their parent country? How did you get the sense that the common Taiwanese support unification, if half of them votes for separatist Ah Bian?
Sorry double post.Originally posted by Blueray:I have been living in China for 3 years. For those of you who question China's communism, it is of a progressive kind. Their system very cleverly combines the merits of both capitalism and communism. China is a one party nation while Taiwan is a democracy but yet there are lots of Taiwanese who have decided that China is a better place to live and are emigrating to the mainland in large numbers. In fact China is already the 4th hottest destination for emigrating Taiwanese. Here is the related article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer
Back in 1992, China and Taiwan have already reached a consensus that they will both accept the one-china policy (which is the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China.) But Lee Teng Hui and pro independence Taiwanese politicians went back on their words later and of course Beijing is angry with Taiwan.
Taiwanese constitution states very clearly that both the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China and it is illegal to carry out seperatist activities... what Chen shui bian is doing now is actually violating taiwan's constitution.
China is now the largest importer of Taiwanese goods and Taiwan has a very huge trade surplus with China. if Taiwan insists on independence, their economy will suffer terribly. China has really caught up and is fast outpacing Taiwan in many aspects. Pro-indepence Taiwanese are too blind to see that... Their impression of China is still stuck in the cold war era.
Fat hope USA will interfere. You are so naive to think US will help Taiwan. It will only do so if oil is found in Taiwan !Originally posted by drawer:Americans will certainly interfere if a China n Taiwan war break out.Becoz the fundamental "beliefs" of United States n China are totally different.The U.S practise "democracy" n China implement "communism" or "socialism".The basic ideology is very different,and U.S from the past experience when dealing with Soviet Union,they know god damn well if they did not stop those communist,what will happen!.....Moreover,the U.S is now the only super-power in the world,they would rather lose alot of money then to lose up their domination or "police status" in the world.Not to mention they wouldnt want to see a different "ideology" country to challenge her domination.
PRC and ROC are both independent and status quo is a historical baggage. Taiwanese, or citizens of ROC are friends of all free Chinese all over the world. You have support of Chinese all over the world until Taiwan is split into green and blue, north and south, wai sheng and ben sheng. Taiwan became prosperous and is where it is today because of the wai sheng ren and the system handed down by Jiang Jing Guo. The situation today does not speak well of the Taiwanese government in the way they treat the wai sheng ren and overseas Chinese understands very well !!Originally posted by David Mars:Hey pearlie27, yeah I'm Taiwanese, being in SG for a long time though. Where're you from then? Local?
I won't say I know alot about politics, but I know that what's in my mind ideally is very far from what is happening across the Taiwan Straits and with the USA now.. I feel that Taiwan has to have to carry herself with more dignity and less cuddling up to the U.S, after all, Taiwan is a independent nation, just that most countries in the world choose not to recognise that, for reasons that we all know. I also feel that in the recent years, Taiwan seem to have been merely the ball in a soccer match between China and U.S, becoming more and more isolated in global community also.
I think the voice of 23 million Taiwanese cannot be left unheard, therefore Taiwan's future should be left to the Taiwanese to decide. Some Chinese in China may think that 23 million Taiwanese compare to China's 1.3 billion is a minority, and in democracy, majority rules so since most peolpe in China thinks Taiwan is part of China, Taiwan should be unified. But I think sometimes democracy is not always about majority ruling, you have to think for the minority. Weigh democracy against ethics. If there're 10 people in a house, but one fine day 9 people decided that this 1 person has to go and threw him out of the house. Is that democracy? sure it is, majority right? But is that a RIGHT thing to do?
So what I've been saying is that Taiwanese, over a period of time, must decide, and reach a collective conclusion of who they are and what they want. Status quo won't last forever, China is showing their ambitions, in 10-20 years' time, taking Taiwan will become a breeze for China.
And I think merely having friends who're Taiwanese not supoprting Ah Bian lead one to conclude Ah Bian does not have majority support is too simplistic. Also, gathering info from one source is often not a good idea as it may be biased.
... but the Han Chinese make up more than 90% of pop. in China.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:If China insists on taking Taiwan , there's no way you all can prevent it.
Anyway, there are over 56 ethnic groups in China..compared to 4 in Singapore.. China isn't a completely "chinese" country in fact.
My 2nd point is, with taiwan , and access to the pacific , USA won't allow it to happen.Anyway, with rgds to Singapore , it is too far away to be annexed into the motherland.
So im afraid they annex you. It's only a matter of time before America becomes weaker..when america becomes weaker due to the debt , and etc..
Then it will be the time for them to launch and attack , when China moves , the whole world will shake. Trust me,even the Japanese will not intervene , if the USA doesn't make any noise about it happening.
Its only a matter of time.Til then , Good night.
Oh is it?We will wait n see how if mainland China attack on Taiwan.Flaming me here is totally meaningless!Originally posted by crazy monkey:Fat hope USA will interfere. You are so naive to think US will help Taiwan. It will only do so if oil is found in Taiwan !![]()
"China isn't a completely "chinese" country" How do you define "chinese"?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:If China insists on taking Taiwan , there's no way you all can prevent it.
Anyway, there are over 56 ethnic groups in China..compared to 4 in Singapore.. China isn't a completely "chinese" country in fact.
My 2nd point is, with taiwan , and access to the pacific , USA won't allow it to happen.Anyway, with rgds to Singapore , it is too far away to be annexed into the motherland.
So im afraid they annex you. It's only a matter of time before America becomes weaker..when america becomes weaker due to the debt , and etc..
Then it will be the time for them to launch and attack , when China moves , the whole world will shake. Trust me,even the Japanese will not intervene , if the USA doesn't make any noise about it happening.
Its only a matter of time.Til then , Good night.
The consideration for racial balancing was mentioned in almost all historical sources, textbooks included.Originally posted by whack:huh? sure or not, or revisionist conspiracy theory? got source?
Originally posted by sgdiehard:SGdiehard, I think our discussion have become... rather fragmented.
but saying "I am not Chinese" in a matter of fact way is just dumb.Originally posted by rascallyun:I think in that respect, the taiwanese kid is referring to his nationality. I think you might have confused the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Like I can be a chinese yet be not from china.![]()
No disagreement with your view on the US position. It is clear that US interest iis purely based on their own interests. If it is a matter of ideology or freedom, they would not have recognised PRC and kicked out ROC in the 70s.Originally posted by bumbleb: