Taiwan-China Issue
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ya. it is current taiwan garmen fault. they want to play who blink first with china to show its younger population they got balls. also trying to force US hand. once ah bian open mouth abt indpendence, china sure tulan and roar. then US sure will warn China dun anyhow sabre rattle or flex muslces. taiwan play both sides.Originally posted by pearlie27:Originally posted by David Mars:
2) Taiwan has never, in the last 1 or 2 decades, advocated war to solve the differences between herself and China.
Yes, but it, or rather ah bian, has advocated independence, which is equivalent to the declaration of war to China!
3) China, however, returned by stating that it will not give up the use of force on Taiwan and continues, to this day, to increase the number of missiles pointed at Taiwan (abt 700 RIGHT THIS MOMENT) and continues to expand its military.
if I don't remeber wrongly, the missiles pointing was a direct result of ah bian's call to pass a law for Taiwan to address itself as Taiwan and not the Republic of China
4) China entices Taiwan businesspeople to invest there with the econimical rewards due to the huge market there, and on the other hand, continues to place missiles to point at Taiwan, re-stating the so called 'One China' policy, restating it will not give up the use of force and even enacted an anti-Secession Law.
It is all ah bian's fault
6) China claims Taiwan as part of its territory when PRC has never ever governed or set foot on Taiwan. China talks about 'national sovereignty and territorial integrity' when citing reason to take Taiwan. BS. If Taiwan today is underdeveloped and not in the strategic position that it is, will China bother?
But that of course! Aren't there plenty of e.g. of countries fighting tooth and nail when useful resources are found in dubious territories?
7) some Chinese have said to me that Taiwan and China both are Chinese countries, Chinese should unite. But does uniting means all becoming one nation? EU is not just one nation, it is a nation of nations. And if all Chinese should unite into one country, Singapore and China should merge since it is about 3/4 Chinese?
The relationship between Taiwan and China is different from that of Europe. Your last question is too far-fetched!
8 ) China has a choice with war. Singapore FM George Yeo once said in UN that any move towards Taiwan independence will lead to regional instability and troubles. That view is skewed because ultimately who holds the button to launch the missiles, China does. So does China have a choice?
Don't know what is your stand leh? So does China has a choice or not?
9) Taiwanese have to see it clear now, that China has no intention, or less intention to negotiate with Taiwan unless Taiwan recognises that itself is a part of China. So if they want the democracy and freedom in Taiwan now, they must be ready to defend it.
If Taiwan softens, China will take it for granted. Look at what happened when President Chen tried to extend olive branches, China just will not budge, missiles keep increasing, military keep expanding, not giving up use of force and now Anti- Secession Law. Taiwan should not back down anymore and should really review its China policy, especially on allowing businesses to invest in China. It is well known that Chinese Govt. make things difficult for Taiwan firms doing businss in China if they support President Chen or Taiwan independence and China still advocates that politics and economics be separated. Back when Lee Teng Hui was president, he was the only one who dared to shout back and take tough stances against China and US or anyone else. He was sometimes crude and undiplmoatic, but that, unfortunately, is the only way to deal with China.
ah bian extending olive branches? He only backed down when he lost support at home.
you really think lee teng hui actually dare to take tough stances agst China, US and anyone else?
Anyway, the situation now and during lee teng hui's time is completely different . -
If you denounce the US intervention in the Taiwan Straits, and claim that the choice should be left to China and Taiwan, then isn't your own calls for unification ironical? I am assuming from your nick that you are Singaporean.Originally posted by sgdiehard:... Who is to say if China and Taiwan should or should not be united? not singaporean or any outsiders!!
Pan Green under Chen has been running a clear separatist platform. In the last election they won. Seems to me that at least half of the Taiwanese did not favor unification with China.
The point I was trying to make was not the events before and leading to the separation.My only wish is to see no war between the two sides. If a minority group of politicians in Taiwan were to disregard history and feeling of the Chinese people, I say they are looking for trouble and they will get it.
Wishes of the people of Taiwan? tell me who in Taiwan wish for an independent taiwan? Ah pian and his group, Lee Teng Hui, ....who else?? Even KMT, the archrival of the communists, is not in favour of an independent Taiwan. [/quote]
Nobody wants war. Even the US. When the situation turned tense, the US lobbied for Chen to tone down. For all the sabre rattling, I see China working towards halting seperatism than working on reunification at the present.
What is the Chinese feeling you are talking about? From which sources are you able to accurately know the feelings of the Taiwanese population, and know that they want to be unified with China?Quoting Malaysia and Singapore is totally out of question and it shows a lack of understanding of history of China. Singapore was part of the Malaysian Federation and was ejected out. Its founding as an independent country is recognised by the Malaysian government.
The point I am trying to make is that ever since Singapore left the Federation, and succeeded rather than failed, there are elements in Malaysia and Johor who felt cheated - who felt that Singapore belonged to Malaysia simply based on the historical links with the former Johor Sultanate.
If these sentiments gain prominence again one day, do you think that it is fair to expect Singaporeans to be absorbed into Malaysia based on the fact that we were once a part of Johor? Would you think that Singaporeans can accept the loss of their rights simply because many many more people in Malaysia wants us to join them (if)?
Americans are being driven by their interests - that's the same for every other country. They are neither the first, the last, or the only country that pursues their interests - while talking big from moral high ground.Do you believe the Americans would choose course of actions that will not benefit them? Even treaty like the Kyoto Protocol has no US participation because they believe it does not benefit them. You are entitled to your belief.
The American threatened but never fire one single shot to stop the communists from crossing over to Taiwan. Communists were land fighter and even today they are no good at naval or amphibious warfare. Americans were never in, so there is no pulling out. War will only break out if Taiwan declares independence, not when "If America was to pull out completely now".
To be fair to the American's, the KMT under Chiang was a spectacular failure. If not for the repeated support of the Americans, the KMT might have folded long ago. What did the American's owe Chiang - whose corruption and ineptitude was legendary? The fight between the CCP and the KMT was essentially a Chinese civil war, and in this civil war the Americans have intervened and supported the KMT - who lost the war, and not the Americans.
Nevertheless, I believed that the Americans presence was a deterrence to the CCP, sufficient that they did leave Formosa alone. The Americans also promised the Taiwanese protection against a Chinese invasion - it is following this promise that America is closely drawn into the affairs of the Taiwanese Straits.I am sure there are many in Malaysia who would challenge the above. Neverthelessly, the MCP was significant because it was near. The impact could be felt, all the way to the infiltration of communist elements into Singapore, and the resulting riots and disruptions that were caused.Bloodshed and destruction as a result of the clashes of the ideologies are better seen during the Korean war and the vietnam war. The Malayan Communists had no change to do much damage. But we need to change with times, China is hardly the communist country with the original ideology. Is the stand-off at the Taiwan Straits a check on Communist advancement??? Hardly.
[quote]Taiwanese ruling parties and the media in Taiwan have made a mockery of democracy. Many Taiwanese are thus migrating to US, Australia, Singapore and now China. Do we know what the common Taiwanese feel? You can't question if children should be united with their parents based on the benefits they were likely to gain. In what way did the ruling party and the Taiwanese media make a mockery of democracy? Please elaborate.
Many Singaporeans emigrate too. And Americans too. So how did you reach the conclusion that a large portion of the Taiwanese emigration was a result of the political system in Taiwan being dysfunctional ?
How did you reach the conclusion that the common Taiwanese look upon China as their parent country? How did you get the sense that the common Taiwanese support unification, if half of them votes for separatist Ah Bian? -
My replies are in bold.
2) Taiwan has never, in the last 1 or 2 decades, advocated war to solve the differences between herself and China.
Posted by pearlie27
Yes, but it, or rather ah bian, has advocated independence, which is equivalent to the declaration of war to China!
Advocating a formal statehood for Taiwan will equal to war only if China says so, therefore the choice lies with China. Taiwanese has the fundamental right to express what they want for their future, although I think that voting for Pan-Green or Pan-Blue doesn't mean agreeing with their ideology.
I think it cannot be ignored that some people vote base on interest and not ideology. They may agree with declararing a Taiwan state, but they know China will most probably use force when that is done, therefore out of being realistic, they voted for Pan-Blue. Just an assumption.
3) China, however, returned by stating that it will not give up the use of force on Taiwan and continues, to this day, to increase the number of missiles pointed at Taiwan (abt 700 RIGHT THIS MOMENT) and continues to expand its military.
Posted by pearlie27
if I don't remeber wrongly, the missiles pointing was a direct result of ah bian's call to pass a law for Taiwan to address itself as Taiwan and not the Republic of China
Was there such an event that took place? Although I do remember Ah Bian and one of Taiwan's ministries(which is in charge of passports etc.), should be Foreign Affairs Ministry, calling for the word 'Taiwan' to be added to the passport, of which the cover page says 'Republic of China Passport'. And they have, so it has become 'Republic of China (Taiwan) Passport' or something like that. And they did that for a practical reason that some foreign countries have identified 'Republic of China' as China and therefore bringing some troubles to the Taiwanese travellers.
4) China entices Taiwan businesspeople to invest there with the econimical rewards due to the huge market there, and on the other hand, continues to place missiles to point at Taiwan, re-stating the so called 'One China' policy, restating it will not give up the use of force and even enacted an anti-Secession Law.
Posted by pearlie27
It is all ah bian's fault
?? What do you mean by 'it is all Ah Bian' fault? Elaborate pls.
6) China claims Taiwan as part of its territory when PRC has never ever governed or set foot on Taiwan. China talks about 'national sovereignty and territorial integrity' when citing reason to take Taiwan. BS. If Taiwan today is underdeveloped and not in the strategic position that it is, will China bother?
Posted by pearlier27
But that of course! Aren't there plenty of e.g. of countries fighting tooth and nail when useful resources are found in dubious territories?
I agree with your point but I think you missed mine. I was trying to imply that the Chinese Govt. is just as practical as other countries fighting for territories with rich resources but to wrap it up with their 'defending national sovereignty and territorial integrity' and the 'achieving unification of the mother land is the sacred mission of all Chinese people including the people of Taiwan' rhetoric just sound so fake.
7) some Chinese have said to me that Taiwan and China both are Chinese countries, Chinese should unite. But does uniting means all becoming one nation? EU is not just one nation, it is a nation of nations. And if all Chinese should unite into one country, Singapore and China should merge since it is about 3/4 Chinese?
Posted by pearlie27
The relationship between Taiwan and China is different from that of Europe. Your last question is too far-fetched!
That is exactly what I'm trying to illustrate with Singapore being a principally Chinese nation merging with China. It is too far fetched when some Chinese I know tells me that being Chinese means having to unite under one nation. Coming together into one nation is not the only way to be united.
Yeah EU is different from Taiwan and China, agree. That's the point I was trying to make to someone who said EU can co-operate, why can't the Chinese from China and Taiwan. Btw, I'm not implying that Singapore being principally Chinese means other races like Malay and Indian do not matter.
8 ) China has a choice with war. Singapore FM George Yeo once said in UN that any move towards Taiwan independence will lead to regional instability and troubles. That view is skewed because ultimately who holds the button to launch the missiles, China does. So does China have a choice?
Posted by pearlie27
Don't know what is your stand leh? So does China has a choice or not?
My stand is China has a choice.
9) Taiwanese have to see it clear now, that China has no intention, or less intention to negotiate with Taiwan unless Taiwan recognises that itself is a part of China. So if they want the democracy and freedom in Taiwan now, they must be ready to defend it.
If Taiwan softens, China will take it for granted. Look at what happened when President Chen tried to extend olive branches, China just will not budge, missiles keep increasing, military keep expanding, not giving up use of force and now Anti- Secession Law. Taiwan should not back down anymore and should really review its China policy, especially on allowing businesses to invest in China. It is well known that Chinese Govt. make things difficult for Taiwan firms doing businss in China if they support President Chen or Taiwan independence and China still advocates that politics and economics be separated. Back when Lee Teng Hui was president, he was the only one who dared to shout back and take tough stances against China and US or anyone else. He was sometimes crude and undiplmoatic, but that, unfortunately, is the only way to deal with China.
Posted by pearlie27
ah bian extending olive branches? He only backed down when he lost support at home.
you really think lee teng hui actually dare to take tough stances agst China, US and anyone else?
Anyway, the situation now and during lee teng hui's time is completely different .
That is the nature of politics, you back down when you lose. Pan-Green lost the Parliamentary polls to Pan-Blue, indicating to them that the people do not want them to do things 100% their way, that a stronger opposition is desired to check and balance the Govt. and that the Govt. should be consultative and inclusive. Ah Bian took that implication, that is why he backed down. I believe any other politicians will have to hear the people's call. That is also why he started extending olive branches to China. I cited Lee as example to contrast how different is Taiwan's Govt. adopts a softer image now because I feel that a softer image for the Taiwan Govt. will not work well when it comes to dealing with China. And even with U.S, I think now there is a tendency in the Taiwan Govt. to consult or 'report' to U.S too much. I feel that certain things if the Taiwan Govt. feels that they have to be done, then just do it, there is no need to check with or consult any foreign governments.
And yes that is what I meant as said by lwflee, that China is the aggressor with the choice of whether to wage war or not, and that Taiwanese are at no fault wanting their future to be decided by themselves.
Originally posted by Whack
ya. it is current taiwan garmen fault. they want to play who blink first with china to show its younger population they got balls. also trying to force US hand. once ah bian open mouth abt indpendence, china sure tulan and roar. then US sure will warn China dun anyhow sabre rattle or flex muslces. taiwan play both sides.
What fault are you talking about? Is it any fault that Taiwan Govt. and Taiwanese wanting their future to be decided by themselves? Taiwan plays both sides because they have to. With the world nowadays, every nation involved in global affairs will have to play multi-sides, China does that too, warming up ties with U.S yet maintaining and even improving friendship with Russia and North Korea, U.S maintaining relations with India yet selling missiles to Pakistan. Singapore, above table maintain very warm relations with China but underneath, the economical and other relations with Taiwan are all still there. My point is, nations play it this way out of necessity and interest. -
At the time of Malaysian independance, the chinese population was indeed large.Originally posted by drawer:Bravo,well said there.And talking about Malaysian communist,last time i had read a book about the population of Chinese in Malaysia during the WW2 n before Malaysia gain independence.You know last time before WW2,the population of Chinese in Malaysia is actually more than those Malays.But during WW2,alot of them were massacred by those Japanese.And later on,those Malaysian Chinese communist arise to oppose British rules n that brought on more Chinese die during that period.I think if those 2 occasions never appear,it will be we Chinese to rule Malaysia n not Malay.
Actually Lou Lee when young that time also know that communist are too aggressive n extreme when comes to political issue,n their ideas are not practical.But when Lou Lee grow old,he suddenly show interest in communism due to his crave for power.......This show that sometimes when a person grow older,it is not neccessary that his thinking will advance as well,it will sometimes go backward.....sad.......
When Singapore asked to join the federation, the large Chinese population here threatened to upset the racial balance overall.
To protect the political dominance of Malays, Sabah and Sarawak with their predominately Malay population was added together to form the 11 state Federation of Malaysia.
Together with the 2 additions, the Chinese population was once again a minority - which was the only situation acceptable to the Malaysian leadership. -
huh? sure or not, or revisionist conspiracy theory? got source?Originally posted by bumbleb:At the time of Malaysian independance, the chinese population was indeed large.
When Singapore asked to join the federation, the large Chinese population here threatened to upset the racial balance overall.
To protect the political dominance of Malays, Sabah and Sarawak with their predominately Malay population was added together to form the 11 state Federation of Malaysia.
Together with the 2 additions, the Chinese population was once again a minority - which was the only situation acceptable to the Malaysian leadership. -
I am a Singaporean and my understanding of Chinese history tells me that Taiwan is part of China and not an independent country. I am not advocating that they should be united now, remains status quo or come under one country two systems. When and how, probable time will tell. But I strongly believe that it is for the Chinese, mainland and Taiwanese (aboriginals, local province and from other provinces) to decide and outsiders like USA and Japan should stay clear.Originally posted by bumbleb:If you denounce the US intervention in the Taiwan Straits, and claim that the choice should be left to China and Taiwan, then isn't your own calls for unification ironical? I am assuming from your nick that you are Singaporean.
Pan Green under Chen has been running a clear separatist platform. In the last election they won. Seems to me that at least half of the Taiwanese did not favor unification with China.
Pan Green won the first presidential election when Lee Teng Hui split KMT into two parties and Ah Bian won without a majority. The second election was marred with the "assasination" and electorates were confused with the "referendum" issues. And finally pan green lost the majority in the administrative yuan election. I can say that more than half do not agree with what pan green is advocating.
What does unification means? taiwan becomes part of china under communist rule? certainly not, and even the communists know that it won't work!! Much has been talked about one country two systems, the three linkages were part of the moves towards finally merging the two into one. Commercial and cultural merges have been in progress. Taiwanese are very much involved. Only Taiwanese civil servants are not allowed to travel in China and we don't need any statistics to tell us that the Chinese want to be united.Nobody wants war. Even the US. When the situation turned tense, the US lobbied for Chen to tone down. For all the sabre rattling, I see China working towards halting seperatism than working on reunification at the present.
What is the Chinese feeling you are talking about? From which sources are you able to accurately know the feelings of the Taiwanese population, and know that they want to be unified with China?
At least you agree that the Americans are not supporting Taiwan from the "moral high ground", they "are being driven by their interests", not because of their "promise". What are the Americans interests in protecting Taiwan?Americans are being driven by their interests - that's the same for every other country. They are neither the first, the last, or the only country that pursues their interests - while talking big from moral high ground.
To be fair to the American's, the KMT under Chiang was a spectacular failure. If not for the repeated support of the Americans, the KMT might have folded long ago. What did the American's owe Chiang - whose corruption and ineptitude was legendary? The fight between the CCP and the KMT was essentially a Chinese civil war, and in this civil war the Americans have intervened and supported the KMT - who lost the war, and not the Americans.
Nevertheless, I believed that the Americans presence was a deterrence to the CCP, sufficient that they did leave Formosa alone. The Americans also promised the Taiwanese protection against a Chinese invasion - it is following this promise that America is closely drawn into the affairs of the Taiwanese Straits.
You are right that KMT lost the Chinese civil war, not the Americans. The Americans were never involved. The communists Chinese never invaded Taiwan for two reasons, firstly they were tied down in their support for the north Korea in the Korean war, secondly, they were good only fighting on land, they did not have any strategies or means to launch an amphibious assault. Of course, presence of the Americans 7th fleet was a contributing factor but not the only factor "sufficient that they did leave Formosa alone".
War with the MCP was closer to the Malaysian and rightly they should feel greater impact. But in terms of bloodshed and destruction, are we not seeing more of that in the Korean war and Vietnam war? does it means the millions who died in these two wars became insignificant just because it is not near to us? I wonder how many in Malaysia would challenge that.I am sure there are many in Malaysia who would challenge the above. Neverthelessly, the MCP was significant because it was near. The impact could be felt, all the way to the infiltration of communist elements into Singapore, and the resulting riots and disruptions that were caused.
Read the Taiwanese new papers, watch the Taiwanese TV programs, past and present, if you conclude that this is democracy at its best and it is something we can emulate, it is up to you.In what way did the ruling party and the Taiwanese media make a mockery of democracy? Please elaborate.
Many Singaporeans emigrate too. And Americans too. So how did you reach the conclusion that a large portion of the Taiwanese emigration was a result of the political system in Taiwan being dysfunctional ?
How did you reach the conclusion that the common Taiwanese look upon China as their parent country? How did you get the sense that the common Taiwanese support unification, if half of them votes for separatist Ah Bian?
Why do Singaporean emigrate? because pressure too great, children can't catch up with chinese lesson...... why do americans emigrate? I don't know, i have not met any americans who emigrate. Why do Taiwanese emigrate? before ah bian, they emigrate to get better education but mostly to USA and Canada. Now they emigrate because they fear that with the way ah bian is governing taiwan, there will soon be war, so they emigrate even to singapore!!
do you have any taiwanese friends, are they ben shen or wai shen? do you watch any taiwanese programs? mix with the taiwanese and you will know better. No even the Taiwanese believe that ah bian has the majority support!!! -
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And yes that is what I meant as said by lwflee, that China is the aggressor with the choice of whether to wage war or not, and that Taiwanese are at no fault wanting their future to be decided by themselves. >>
young man,
i thought u know sth about politics? Don't u know that Taiwan is highly dependent on the US for survival? Of course it will have to get the big bro's ok before it could do anything major.
anyway, your whole argument is based on your belief that China has no sovereign rights over Taiwan. U therefore think that China shouldn't threathen Taiwan when it's merely asserting its nationhood. Well, China apparently doesn't think likewise. Let me give u an e.g., u might think that looking at someone is a harmless thing to do but one ah beng might not think so and come forward and bash u. What do u do? Cry foul? Unless u're strong enough to fight back, isn't it wiser to avoid the incident in the 1st place?
btw, are u a taiwanese? -
I have been living in China for 3 years. For those of you who question China's communism, it is of a progressive kind. Their system very cleverly combines the merits of both capitalism and communism. China is a one party nation while Taiwan is a democracy but yet there are lots of Taiwanese who have decided that China is a better place to live and are emigrating to the mainland in large numbers. In fact China is already the 4th hottest destination for emigrating Taiwanese. Here are the related articles:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer
http://english.people.com.cn/200207/07/eng20020707_99237.shtml
Back in 1992, China and Taiwan have already reached a consensus that they will both accept the one-china policy (which is the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China.) But Lee Teng Hui and pro independence Taiwanese politicians went back on their words later and of course Beijing is angry with Taiwan.
Taiwanese constitution states very clearly that both the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China and it is illegal to carry out seperatist activities... what Chen shui bian is doing now is actually violating taiwan's constitution.
China is now the largest importer of Taiwanese goods and Taiwan has a very huge trade surplus with China. if Taiwan insists on independence, their economy will suffer terribly. -
Sorry double post.Originally posted by Blueray:I have been living in China for 3 years. For those of you who question China's communism, it is of a progressive kind. Their system very cleverly combines the merits of both capitalism and communism. China is a one party nation while Taiwan is a democracy but yet there are lots of Taiwanese who have decided that China is a better place to live and are emigrating to the mainland in large numbers. In fact China is already the 4th hottest destination for emigrating Taiwanese. Here is the related article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer
Back in 1992, China and Taiwan have already reached a consensus that they will both accept the one-china policy (which is the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China.) But Lee Teng Hui and pro independence Taiwanese politicians went back on their words later and of course Beijing is angry with Taiwan.
Taiwanese constitution states very clearly that both the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China and it is illegal to carry out seperatist activities... what Chen shui bian is doing now is actually violating taiwan's constitution.
China is now the largest importer of Taiwanese goods and Taiwan has a very huge trade surplus with China. if Taiwan insists on independence, their economy will suffer terribly. China has really caught up and is fast outpacing Taiwan in many aspects. Pro-indepence Taiwanese are too blind to see that... Their impression of China is still stuck in the cold war era. -
Fat hope USA will interfere. You are so naive to think US will help Taiwan. It will only do so if oil is found in Taiwan !Originally posted by drawer:Americans will certainly interfere if a China n Taiwan war break out.Becoz the fundamental "beliefs" of United States n China are totally different.The U.S practise "democracy" n China implement "communism" or "socialism".The basic ideology is very different,and U.S from the past experience when dealing with Soviet Union,they know god damn well if they did not stop those communist,what will happen!.....Moreover,the U.S is now the only super-power in the world,they would rather lose alot of money then to lose up their domination or "police status" in the world.Not to mention they wouldnt want to see a different "ideology" country to challenge her domination.
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Hey pearlie27, yeah I'm Taiwanese, being in SG for a long time though. Where're you from then? Local?
I won't say I know alot about politics, but I know that what's in my mind ideally is very far from what is happening across the Taiwan Straits and with the USA now.. I feel that Taiwan has to have to carry herself with more dignity and less cuddling up to the U.S, after all, Taiwan is a independent nation, just that most countries in the world choose not to recognise that, for reasons that we all know. I also feel that in the recent years, Taiwan seem to have been merely the ball in a soccer match between China and U.S, becoming more and more isolated in global community also.
I think the voice of 23 million Taiwanese cannot be left unheard, therefore Taiwan's future should be left to the Taiwanese to decide. Some Chinese in China may think that 23 million Taiwanese compare to China's 1.3 billion is a minority, and in democracy, majority rules so since most peolpe in China thinks Taiwan is part of China, Taiwan should be unified. But I think sometimes democracy is not always about majority ruling, you have to think for the minority. Weigh democracy against ethics. If there're 10 people in a house, but one fine day 9 people decided that this 1 person has to go and threw him out of the house. Is that democracy? sure it is, majority right? But is that a RIGHT thing to do?
So what I've been saying is that Taiwanese, over a period of time, must decide, and reach a collective conclusion of who they are and what they want. Status quo won't last forever, China is showing their ambitions, in 10-20 years' time, taking Taiwan will become a breeze for China.
And I think merely having friends who're Taiwanese not supoprting Ah Bian lead one to conclude Ah Bian does not have majority support is too simplistic. Also, gathering info from one source is often not a good idea as it may be biased. -
Going by all theory all china towns in the world should unite and form 1 china.
Amen.
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If China insists on taking Taiwan , there's no way you all can prevent it.
Anyway, there are over 56 ethnic groups in China..compared to 4 in Singapore.. China isn't a completely "chinese" country in fact.
My 2nd point is, with taiwan , and access to the pacific , USA won't allow it to happen.Anyway, with rgds to Singapore , it is too far away to be annexed into the motherland.
So im afraid they annex you. It's only a matter of time before America becomes weaker..when america becomes weaker due to the debt , and etc..
Then it will be the time for them to launch and attack , when China moves , the whole world will shake. Trust me,even the Japanese will not intervene , if the USA doesn't make any noise about it happening.
Its only a matter of time.Til then , Good night. -
PRC and ROC are both independent and status quo is a historical baggage. Taiwanese, or citizens of ROC are friends of all free Chinese all over the world. You have support of Chinese all over the world until Taiwan is split into green and blue, north and south, wai sheng and ben sheng. Taiwan became prosperous and is where it is today because of the wai sheng ren and the system handed down by Jiang Jing Guo. The situation today does not speak well of the Taiwanese government in the way they treat the wai sheng ren and overseas Chinese understands very well !!Originally posted by David Mars:Hey pearlie27, yeah I'm Taiwanese, being in SG for a long time though. Where're you from then? Local?
I won't say I know alot about politics, but I know that what's in my mind ideally is very far from what is happening across the Taiwan Straits and with the USA now.. I feel that Taiwan has to have to carry herself with more dignity and less cuddling up to the U.S, after all, Taiwan is a independent nation, just that most countries in the world choose not to recognise that, for reasons that we all know. I also feel that in the recent years, Taiwan seem to have been merely the ball in a soccer match between China and U.S, becoming more and more isolated in global community also.
I think the voice of 23 million Taiwanese cannot be left unheard, therefore Taiwan's future should be left to the Taiwanese to decide. Some Chinese in China may think that 23 million Taiwanese compare to China's 1.3 billion is a minority, and in democracy, majority rules so since most peolpe in China thinks Taiwan is part of China, Taiwan should be unified. But I think sometimes democracy is not always about majority ruling, you have to think for the minority. Weigh democracy against ethics. If there're 10 people in a house, but one fine day 9 people decided that this 1 person has to go and threw him out of the house. Is that democracy? sure it is, majority right? But is that a RIGHT thing to do?
So what I've been saying is that Taiwanese, over a period of time, must decide, and reach a collective conclusion of who they are and what they want. Status quo won't last forever, China is showing their ambitions, in 10-20 years' time, taking Taiwan will become a breeze for China.
And I think merely having friends who're Taiwanese not supoprting Ah Bian lead one to conclude Ah Bian does not have majority support is too simplistic. Also, gathering info from one source is often not a good idea as it may be biased.
Today , China and Taiwan are very inter dependent economically, culturally and even in entertainment. Standard of livings between the two are closer now if not the same. Other than politics, it is not difficult to merge Taiwan with mainland China. And looking at it, Chinese Communists is not what it was in Mao era and is continuing to change. Given time and will, I am sure Taiwan and China can be united amicably. Just make sure that the outsiders like USA and Japan do not hun shui mo yu, make a mess of the situation for their own benefits. -
... but the Han Chinese make up more than 90% of pop. in China.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:If China insists on taking Taiwan , there's no way you all can prevent it.
Anyway, there are over 56 ethnic groups in China..compared to 4 in Singapore.. China isn't a completely "chinese" country in fact.
My 2nd point is, with taiwan , and access to the pacific , USA won't allow it to happen.Anyway, with rgds to Singapore , it is too far away to be annexed into the motherland.
So im afraid they annex you. It's only a matter of time before America becomes weaker..when america becomes weaker due to the debt , and etc..
Then it will be the time for them to launch and attack , when China moves , the whole world will shake. Trust me,even the Japanese will not intervene , if the USA doesn't make any noise about it happening.
Its only a matter of time.Til then , Good night.
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Oh is it?We will wait n see how if mainland China attack on Taiwan.Flaming me here is totally meaningless!Originally posted by crazy monkey:Fat hope USA will interfere. You are so naive to think US will help Taiwan. It will only do so if oil is found in Taiwan ! -
china wont attack taiwan...how can chinese hit chinese...oh rather i bet they wont?
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"China isn't a completely "chinese" country" How do you define "chinese"?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:If China insists on taking Taiwan , there's no way you all can prevent it.
Anyway, there are over 56 ethnic groups in China..compared to 4 in Singapore.. China isn't a completely "chinese" country in fact.
My 2nd point is, with taiwan , and access to the pacific , USA won't allow it to happen.Anyway, with rgds to Singapore , it is too far away to be annexed into the motherland.
So im afraid they annex you. It's only a matter of time before America becomes weaker..when america becomes weaker due to the debt , and etc..
Then it will be the time for them to launch and attack , when China moves , the whole world will shake. Trust me,even the Japanese will not intervene , if the USA doesn't make any noise about it happening.
Its only a matter of time.Til then , Good night.
China never had the intension to annex Singapore or any other chinese populations, there are 6 millions chinese in malaysia and over 10 million in Indonesia. -
The consideration for racial balancing was mentioned in almost all historical sources, textbooks included.Originally posted by whack:huh? sure or not, or revisionist conspiracy theory? got source?
From google :
http://www.kiat.net/malaysia/history.html
"...In the 1960s membership in the federation shifted several times, finally settling into the present pattern in 1963, when Malaysia was established. The Malay majority hoped that including Sabah and Sarawak, which had ethnically diverse populations, would balance the large numbers of Chinese from Singapore. ..."
http://www.city.com.my/malaysia-history.htm
"...The proposal was on the whole well received. Trade benefits would accrue from the creation of a larger economic unit, and resources could be pooled. There would also be political advantages. For Malaya amalgamation with Singapore with its largely Chinese population would be offset by the largely indigenous populations of the states in Borneo. For Singapore it was a means of ending colonial status, and for Sarawak, Brunei, and North Borneo it would advance the date of independence..."
The issue of Malay dominance of Malaysian politics was always critical - then or now.
It was LKY's questioning of the Malay's special rights - the concept of "Malaysian Malay", that got him kicked out of the federation.
During my school days, I had an ex-pat teacher who had an altenative view of Singapore's quitting of the Malaysian Federation.
Refering to the point where a tearful Lee announced our breaking from the federation, my teacher commented that the tears were those of regret - that having conquered Singapore he now have nothing left to conquer. With Singapore out of the federation, Lee would never have the chance to take over Malaysia. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
SGdiehard, I think our discussion have become... rather fragmented.
Let me sum up, I think that you feel that the Taiwanese as a whole is leaning towards much closer ties with China than is currently available, and that you are moderately disgusted by American interference in the Taiwanese Straits, because you think that the US is being hypocritical and opportunistic.
More than half or less than half, even if its 45 to 48%, clearly there are many millions of Taiwanese who feel strongly about an independent Taiwanese identity. Does these people not have a right to reject reunification with China?
I think that reunification cannot happen before the Taiwanese have strong, clear reasons to rejoin China. This is because this joining, if and when it happens, is likely to be permanent. Once in, Taiwan most probably cannot leave without another war.
Like I mentioned earlier, no sane man would give up something he have for nothing. In the same line, while the Taiwanese might like closer links with China, with less restrictions / regulations - would they be willing to give up their political rights in exchange?
As for the US, I think that part of their Taiwanese strategy, is to use this issue as leverage over China. At the same time, sale of arms are lucrative deals that stimulate the American arms industry. All in all, the American involvement in the Taiwanese Straits is largely beneficial - so long as the equation does not escalate into chaos and war. With American economic interests in China growing, and the US attention tied up with Iraqi and the unstable North Korea, the last thing they need is a war with China at this moment.
Hence I believe that the US supports the status quo, rather than Taiwanese independence.
Taiwan democracy... what is democracy? While there are many definitions, to me the bottom line is the choice of the people. Choice of different parties with different political paths, choice of media that offers different views. And let the people be make the decision of what they want, support and believe.
What do we have in Singapore? One party view? One party controlled press? I think that it will be ironical for a Singaporean to criticize the state of democracy in another country. -
it always amuses me when some taiwan kid says like a matter of fact "I am NOT Chinese, I am Taiwanese."
You are not Chinese then what? Indian ah? Angmoh ah? Taiwanese my ass, next time when China becomes a super power, see what they say, oo look at me I am not chinese, I am dunno what loook like chinese and speak chinese but somehow, I am not chinese!! -
I think in that respect, the taiwanese kid is referring to his nationality. I think you might have confused the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Like I can be a chinese yet be not from china.
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but saying "I am not Chinese" in a matter of fact way is just dumb.Originally posted by rascallyun:I think in that respect, the taiwanese kid is referring to his nationality. I think you might have confused the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Like I can be a chinese yet be not from china. -
Not if Chinese meant being a citizen of china. All depends on context.
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No disagreement with your view on the US position. It is clear that US interest iis purely based on their own interests. If it is a matter of ideology or freedom, they would not have recognised PRC and kicked out ROC in the 70s.Originally posted by bumbleb:
The issue here is whether Taiwan should be independent ? It should be clear that rejecting reunification does not equal to declaring independence! It can also mean status quo. Since mainland China is not pressing for an immediate reunification, there is no question about "rejecting reunification".
It is clear, if less than half of the 23 millions want independence, then constitutionally, democratically, they cannot declare independence!! That is the reason why ah bian is trying all tricks to get the majority to agree on a referendum to change constitution.
Ideally, everybody should be free to do whatever he wants but in a group, you submit to the majority, that is civilisation. It is a historical fact that Taiwan is part of China so the minority in Taiwan will have to submit to the majority in Taiwan, and the majority in China as well!! And China is saying that taiwan is part of the 1.3 billion chinese, so 23 millions chinese in Taiwan also cannot decide to let Taiwan become independence. In the same way, 80 millions chinese in Guangdong cannot declare Guangdong independent!! It sounds harsh but isn't that the reality?
We know that declaration of Taiwan equals war with China so we should not encourage the minority Taiwanese to work towards independence. Besides, most Taiwanese know that when war breaks out, those who felt strongly about independence, Lee Teng Hui, Jin Mei Ling,....would be ready to flee to Japan and US.
Singapore is by no means an example of a democratic country but is the Taiwanese democracy a model we should follow? do you think Chiam See Tong can declare Potong Pasir independence so that his people can have greater freedom?