Taiwan-China Issue
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Taiwanese is not a nationality!!! Taiwan is a province of China and Taiwanese are just like Hokkien who come from Fujian province, Cantonese from Guangdong province. Taiwanese chinese are ethnic chinese as well as chinese nationals of ROC. The aborigins in Taiwan are called Shangdi Ren. Ethnically non Chinese but Chinese nationals of ROC.Originally posted by rascallyun:I think in that respect, the taiwanese kid is referring to his nationality. I think you might have confused the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Like I can be a chinese yet be not from china.
Chinese as an ethnic group is actually referring to the Han Chinese. There are 56 ethnic groups in China, Han is over 90% and there are manchurian, mongolian, ......So these manchurians, are Chinese in nationality.
In Singapore, we are ethnic chinese, but Singaporean our nationality.
The ABC are the Chinese born in america, but are american as nationality. -
Taiwan island + Peng Hu + Jin Men + Ma Zhu = Taiwan = Republic of China = Independent country. But most nations in the world don't recognise that, ha..
I think Taiwan and China is like North and South Korea.. Differences of ideals and political - social system. The fact that ROC survived means just that, it has survived and is an independent country. Like N.Korea and S.Korea. Only difference is, N.Korea and S.Korea are roughly the same size. China is much much bigger than Taiwan, and because China is modernising its economy, it represents a huge market for the world and many nations rather support China simply because of that.. Alas, it boils down to just $$ benefits, sigh.. -
You might not consider Taiwanese as a nationality but to the ppl of Taiwan they would like to think that it is and Taiwan is an independent state.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Taiwanese is not a nationality!!! Taiwan is a province of China and Taiwanese are just like Hokkien who come from Fujian province, Cantonese from Guangdong province. Taiwanese chinese are ethnic chinese as well as chinese nationals of ROC. The aborigins in Taiwan are called Shangdi Ren. Ethnically non Chinese but Chinese nationals of ROC.
Chinese as an ethnic group is actually referring to the Han Chinese. There are 56 ethnic groups in China, Han is over 90% and there are manchurian, mongolian, ......So these manchurians, are Chinese in nationality.
In Singapore, we are ethnic chinese, but Singaporean our nationality.
The ABC are the Chinese born in america, but are american as nationality. -
Actually majority of the Taiwanese want to keep the status quo. They consider themselves citizens of Republic of China. There are people who favour independence or reunification but they are just the minorities. In the first place most Taiwanese don't even want to touch this independence and reunification issue.Originally posted by lotus999:You might not consider Taiwanese as a nationality but to the ppl of Taiwan they would like to think that it is and Taiwan is an independent state.
Under Chen Shuibian's rule, Taiwanese economy is getting from bad to worse. Their unemployment rate, suicide rate, crime rate have hit a record high. Ah Bian's incompetence is clear for all to see. In fact, many Taiwanese are fed up with their current government and are emigrating overseas in large numbers. Mainland China has become the 4th favourite destination for emigrating Taiwanese! -
Blueray justify your comments pls, especially on Taiwan's economy and migration.
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I believe that for changes to a country's constitution, a simple majority is usually insufficient in most countries. Any changes to a countryÂ’s constitution are a major event, and usually requires a significant majority in the parliament to push through.Originally posted by sgdiehard:No disagreement with your view on the US position. It is clear that US interest iis purely based on their own interests. If it is a matter of ideology or freedom, they would not have recognised PRC and kicked out ROC in the 70s.
The issue here is whether Taiwan should be independent ? It should be clear that rejecting reunification does not equal to declaring independence! It can also mean status quo. Since mainland China is not pressing for an immediate reunification, there is no question about "rejecting reunification".
It is clear, if less than half of the 23 millions want independence, then constitutionally, democratically, they cannot declare independence!! That is the reason why ah bian is trying all tricks to get the majority to agree on a referendum to change constitution.
For Chen to succeed, he will need much more support than he currently have. One way to guess his strategy is that by egging China into aggression, he can attempt to fan the nationalistic sentiments of the population to gain supporters from the opposite side.
But given the recent developments, it is possible that his separatist stance might be partly a political ploy to gain votes from the nationalists. Already he seems to be switching gear into mending the fences.
Personally, I think that while the Taiwanese political arena might not be of your taste, the basic choices that are fundamental to a democracy are there.Ideally, everybody should be free to do whatever he wants but in a group, you submit to the majority, that is civilisation. It is a historical fact that Taiwan is part of China so the minority in Taiwan will have to submit to the majority in Taiwan, and the majority in China as well!! And China is saying that taiwan is part of the 1.3 billion chinese, so 23 millions chinese in Taiwan also cannot decide to let Taiwan become independence. In the same way, 80 millions chinese in Guangdong cannot declare Guangdong independent!! It sounds harsh but isn't that the reality?
We know that declaration of Taiwan equals war with China so we should not encourage the minority Taiwanese to work towards independence. Besides, most Taiwanese know that when war breaks out, those who felt strongly about independence, Lee Teng Hui, Jin Mei Ling,....would be ready to flee to Japan and US. [/quote]
Historically, China was made of many, many individual and independent states. Even after reunification, China was split again during the Song dynasty. At which point of time do we draw the map as the real China?
Like the example I brought up earlier about Singapore and Johor, historical linkages by themselves are scant and questionable justifications to force unification if there are no willingness on the ground.
Like Singapore from Johor/Malayisa, Taiwan has been separated from China for many years, a separation that is not only political but administrative as well. Taiwan has already been separated from China, functioning by all purposes as an independent state since the close of WWII. By all accounts there is a formation of a Taiwanese identity, rather than a view of the Taiwanese as Chinese citizens on a seperate island.
When there's sufficient split around social, political or religious differences, sometimes it is better that there be a split. Just take a look at Pakistan/India, or the price that Indonesia and Philippines are paying for trying to keep Acheh and Mindanao respectively.
Forcing a unification is likely to end up in sorrow. Even a voluntary unification is not guaranteed sucess.[quote]Singapore is by no means an example of a democratic country but is the Taiwanese democracy a model we should follow? do you think Chiam See Tong can declare Potong Pasir independence so that his people can have greater freedom?
Yes, their politics can be messy - to the extent of brawling in the parliament, but all those are the peculiarities of their society. At least the people and the parliament seems to passionate about their country, and quite a lot less apathetic than the equivalent here. What is more important? The style or the substance?
Rather than talking about Guangdong or Potong Pasir splitting away, why not talk about Tibet?
Isn't Tibet historically an independant entity, with a completely different culture and identity from the rest of China; something which remained true long after their annexation by China.
Why should Tibet be part of China simply because they were conquered at some point in their history? -
Voting in support for the DPP does not mean they favour independence. Many Taiwanese chose to support the DPP bcos the KMT have become corrupted over the years and Taiwanese felt they need a new fresh government. The fact is in today's Taiwan, majority of the Taiwanese don't even want to touch this independence/reunification issue. There are Taiwanese who favour reunification or independence but they are the minority.Originally posted by bumbleb:More than half or less than half, even if its 45 to 48%, clearly there are many millions of Taiwanese who feel strongly about an independent Taiwanese identity. Does these people not have a right to reject reunification with China?
Here's an article by renowned Japanese economist, Kenichi Ohmae on why Taiwan should reunite with the mainland:I think that reunification cannot happen before the Taiwanese have strong, clear reasons to rejoin China. This is because this joining, if and when it happens, is likely to be permanent. Once in, Taiwan most probably cannot leave without another war.
http://www.tro-taiwan.roc.org.uk/dc/nsl022003e.htm
Under 5 years of DPP rule, Taiwanese economy is getting from bad to worse. Their unemployment rate, crime rate, suicide rate have soared rapidly. Many Taiwanese who supported the DPP in the past are realising the harsh reality that the DPP is even more corrupted and inept than the KMT. More and more Taiwanese are fed up with their current government and are leaving Taiwan for China in large numbers. They are more than willing to give up what they have in Taiwan in exchange for a new life in the mainland. In fact Mainland China is already the 4th favourite destination for emigrating Taiwanese. Here are the related articles about Taiwanese emigrating to the mainland:Like I mentioned earlier, no sane man would give up something he have for nothing. In the same line, while the Taiwanese might like closer links with China, with less restrictions / regulations - would they be willing to give up their political rights in exchange?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer
http://english.people.com.cn/200207/07/eng20020707_99237.shtml -
Mainland China is now already the 4th hottest destination for emigrating Taiwanese.Originally posted by David Mars:Blueray justify your comments pls, especially on Taiwan's economy and migration.
Here are the articles on Taiwanese emigrating to the mainland:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer
http://english.people.com.cn/200207/07/eng20020707_99237.shtml
Taiwan's economy is also not doing well and unemployment rate in Taiwan is indeed rising:
http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20011025/20011025o2.html -
Hi, as a Hokkien myself, I seriously doubt taiwanese wanted independent, I guess its just the politics different betwen each party, Tibet was part of China, infact I don't see how could Tibet being separated from China. Taiwan was not separated from China, but rather a political legacy of KMT, it was taken over by KMT from Japanese in the 1940s, remained very much untouch with CPP until recently.
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The issue of whether Taiwan is part of China is one of sovereignty and territorial integrity. No government will easily relinquish their basic national interest, when push comes to shove on this matter. Historically, there is little argument that Taiwan did belong to China over a long period of time and most nations have accepted that Taiwan is part of China.
For the people of PRC, they believe Taiwan belongs to them. However, for some Taiwanese, (especially those from the earlier generation from the mainland) they believe that PRC belongs to them!
If over a period of time when Taiwan evolves its own way of life, then the argument based on historical sovereignty weakens. That is one of the reason why it is in PRC's interest to integrate the economy and culture of Taiwan as closely as possible with theirs in order to forestall eventual separation.
The issue of reunification or otherwise is a separate matter which IMO should be decided by both the peoples of PRC and Taiwan and should not be forced in order to avoid bloodshed and widespread disruption. The best scenario to emerge would be peaceful reunification or separation by mutual consent.
Reunification could be brought about when the economic, cultural and political way of life of both the PRC and Taiwan becomes more similar. For their economy and culture to become more similar is perhaps just a matter of time as more people travel and live between the two lands. It is much more difficult for their political systems to become more similar. This can only happen if and when PRC makes deep reforms and democratise their political systems. Will this happen and if so, when? Probably yes. As more and more of their citizens improves themselves economically and become more vocal about their rights, it will be necessary for their government to take account of their views. When that happens, reunification might then make good sense.
From the pov of the US, Japan and S Korea, reunification might not be in their national interest, but that is a separate story.
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It is not what I think, you think or the taiwanese would like to think, it is how nationality and ethnicity are defined and recognised.Originally posted by lotus999:You might not consider Taiwanese as a nationality but to the ppl of Taiwan they would like to think that it is and Taiwan is an independent state. -
The formation of East/West Germany and North/South Korea are quite different from that of ROC and PRC. Germany was one country during the war and was divided by the Russian and American after the war. Korea was occupied by Japan and was also divided by the russian and the american after the war. Both sides formed their own government and claimed to represent the whole country. In the end, the UN decided to recognise both sides because during the cold war, the world was divided into two camps. East and West Germany had since reunited but North and South Korea remain at war with each other.Originally posted by David Mars:Taiwan island + Peng Hu + Jin Men + Ma Zhu = Taiwan = Republic of China = Independent country. But most nations in the world don't recognise that, ha..
I think Taiwan and China is like North and South Korea.. Differences of ideals and political - social system. The fact that ROC survived means just that, it has survived and is an independent country. Like N.Korea and S.Korea. Only difference is, N.Korea and S.Korea are roughly the same size. China is much much bigger than Taiwan, and because China is modernising its economy, it represents a huge market for the world and many nations rather support China simply because of that.. Alas, it boils down to just $$ benefits, sigh..
Korea, existed as one country since 1392 when General Yi founded the Yi Dynasty, and were occupied by the Japanese since 1910 and now divided by the superpowers. Do you think they want to be reunited? or should we say because of "Differences of ideals and political -social system, similar in sizes " they should therefore remain as two separate countries ?? What do the Korean think?
I'll be back on the formation of PRC and ROC. -
If Taiwan is an independent state, then the nationality of the people of Taiwan would be Taiwanese.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is not what I think, you think or the taiwanese would like to think, it is how nationality and ethnicity are defined and recognised.
It is coz you think Taiwan is a province of China, therefore there is no nationality as Taiwanese. But ppl like David Mars, some other forumers here, Ah Bian and many Taiwanese in Taiwan believe that Taiwan is an independent state and so the nationality of the Taiwan ppl should be Taiwanese. -
Taiwan has been an independent state known as Republic of China, not Republic of Taiwan. Taiwanese are also known as Chinese.Originally posted by lotus999:If Taiwan is an independent state, then the nationality of the people of Taiwan would be Taiwanese.
It is coz you think Taiwan is a province of China, therefore there is no nationality as Taiwanese. But ppl like David Mars, some other forumers here, Ah Bian and many Taiwanese in Taiwan believe that Taiwan is an independent state and so the nationality of the Taiwan ppl should be Taiwanese.
I know many people want Taiwan to be a Republic of Taiwan so are finding all ways and means to make that happen. You can continue to think or make believe, Taiwanese will still be known as Republic of China nationals.
Taiwan has been a province of China from the beginning. It is not what I think. Read the history.
In fact, what I think is not important, and in fact it has nothing to do with me. But I have friends who are pan green, and pan blue, and many from mainland and I certainly don't want a war break out among them. -
Ok guys, i think you should meet each other in the middle.
One side wants Taiwan to be independent, the other wants them reunited.
I suggest that China joins Taiwan.
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This is exactly what happened before 1971 October.Originally posted by lwflee:I suggest that China joins Taiwan.
China, including Taiwan was ROC, since Sun Yet Sen founded ROC on October 10, 1911. Then ROC was driven to Taiwan in 1949 by the communists but they remained the sole representation of the whole China, mainland and Taiwan, in the United Nation, even after Mao founded PRC in 1949. PRC was only recognised by the communists states but not the world.
During this period, ROC in Taiwan was creating economic miracles while PRC was involved in cultural revolution and other rubbish, it was that time that China should join ROC in Taiwan.
But, in 1971, the UN admitted PRC IN PLACE of ROC in Taiwan, and in USA established diplomatic relationship with PRC and DROPPED ROC.
And the situation reversed, PRC is now making great economic progress while ROC is involved in all kinds of demonstrations and rubbish. It is no wonder why many from Taiwan are migrating to China.
At no time, was Republic of Taiwan ever appear and Taiwan remains a province of China.
China was split between PRC and ROC because of the civil war. The scenario is quite different from north and south korea. -
I haven't sided with Taiwan or PRC.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Taiwan has been an independent state known as Republic of China, not Republic of Taiwan. Taiwanese are also known as Chinese.
I know many people want Taiwan to be a Republic of Taiwan so are finding all ways and means to make that happen. You can continue to think or make believe, Taiwanese will still be known as Republic of China nationals.
Taiwan has been a province of China from the beginning. It is not what I think. Read the history.
In fact, what I think is not important, and in fact it has nothing to do with me. But I have friends who are pan green, and pan blue, and many from mainland and I certainly don't want a war break out among them.
I'm merely saying that if Taiwan gets official (mainly UN's) recognition of its independence, then the nationality of its ppl will be Taiwanese. Isn't it how nationality is defined?
Don't you think it is rather dogmatic to insist that Taiwan is, without doubt, a province of PRC when the world opinion is so divided? May be you could also ask yourself what would you think if you were a Taiwanese.
cheers! -
If Taiwan does get UN's recognition, then the people will be Taiwanese, no doubt about it. But is this likely to happen?Originally posted by lotus999:I haven't sided with Taiwan or PRC.
I'm merely saying that if Taiwan gets official (mainly UN's) recognition of its independence, then the nationality of its ppl will be Taiwanese. Isn't it how nationality is defined?
Don't you think it is rather dogmatic to insist that Taiwan is, without doubt, a province of PRC when the world opinion is so divided? May be you could also ask yourself what would you think if you were a Taiwanese.
cheers!
Taiwan is a province of China, from historical and geographical perspective. I don't make it up. The world opinion is not divided, the Republic of Taiwan does not exist.
The people from Taiwan, especially those from the other provinces, the wai shen ren, were the ones who brought prosparity to Taiwan. But they were first betrayed by the friends in the UN, when UN admitted PRC in place of ROC, then dumped by the US (with whom the soldiers from ROC fought hand in hand in Korea and Vietnam) who recognised the PRC instead of ROC. Now some Taiwanese, whose ancestors just happen to migrate to Taiwan from Fujian provinces a little earlier, before 1949, are calling themselves locals and treat the wai shen ren as outsiders just to justify their dream to be independent. Tell me how the these wai shen ren from Taiwan feels.
These "locals" who want to de-Chineseness in their society and even want to replace Mandarin with Hokkien. Tell me how do the wai shen ren feels. -
Hi David!Originally posted by David Mars:Hey pearlie27, yeah I'm Taiwanese, being in SG for a long time though. Where're you from then? Local?
And I think merely having friends who're Taiwanese not supoprting Ah Bian lead one to conclude Ah Bian does not have majority support is too simplistic. Also, gathering info from one source is often not a good idea as it may be biased.
Yes I'm a boring typical Singaporean. How long have you been here?
I can empathise with you. If I'm a Taiwanese I too would feel fustrated! You just have to be patient and hopeful.
Instead of getting angry over the threats from PRC (and also, I seriously think, ah bian's provocative behaviour) which you have no control, maybe you should gather more fact and info to convince others of Taiwan' independent status. Agree?
pearlie27
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Is your last para meant for me? Can't be right? -
my view as a 100% singaporean.
Taiwan and china must be treated as a party to party discussion. during the internal war Communism win and GMT has to flee to taiwan.
does an average taiwanese mind? probably 50-50. some worry about the potential backlash from the communist party should they merge. but on the otherhand, merging will create more business opportunity and china will open it gate of its enormous economical benefits to the taiwanese investor.
from what i know, currently the pan green and pan blue doesnt have a blueprint or clear direction what they want to do in the future. and probably they dont want to think about it and rather remain current status quo as the wrong move could provoke the downfall of the party.
so that why ah bian do alot of cosmetics work but decline to declare taiwan as independence nation. few reason.
1. he know he doesnt have the more than half of taiwanese support.
2. he know his godfather-USA are against them independence.
3. backlash on taiwanese already fragile economy.
declare independence has no clear benefits at all -
Hahaha nah the last paragraph isn't for you. anyway i've been here for 11-12 years. Yeah I agree with what you said. sometimes politicians in Taiwan have to be blamed too. I think both sides are at fault sometimes.. But what has to admitted is that this issue is no simple issue.. and efforts to resolve it and the differences between the two sides should be commended. But sometimes good intentions showed at the wrong time becomes bad too, like the recent KMT visit to China.Originally posted by pearlie27:Hi David!
Yes I'm a boring typical Singaporean. How long have you been here?
I can empathise with you. If I'm a Taiwanese I too would feel fustrated! You just have to be patient and hopeful.
Instead of getting angry over the threats from PRC (and also, I seriously think, ah bian's provocative behaviour) which you have no control, maybe you should gather more fact and info to convince others of Taiwan' independent status. Agree?
pearlie27
PS
Is your last para meant for me? Can't be right? -
But someone here insisted that it was a clear cut case - Taiwan is a province of PRC, no doubt about it and the world opinion is not divided. What do you think or have to say?Originally posted by David Mars:Hahaha nah the last paragraph isn't for you. anyway i've been here for 11-12 years. Yeah I agree with what you said. sometimes politicians in Taiwan have to be blamed too. I think both sides are at fault sometimes.. But what has to admitted is that this issue is no simple issue.. and efforts to resolve it and the differences between the two sides should be commended. But sometimes good intentions showed at the wrong time becomes bad too, like the recent KMT visit to China. -
Are you sure you are really a Singaporean and not a PRC agent lurking in our midst?Originally posted by sgdiehard:If Taiwan does get UN's recognition, then the people will be Taiwanese, no doubt about it. But is this likely to happen?
Taiwan is a province of China, from historical and geographical perspective. I don't make it up. The world opinion is not divided, the Republic of Taiwan does not exist.
Even Uncle Sam won't dare say it with such certain terms! -
Hahahaha, this two sentences really show how narrow you are. There are so many overseas Chinese other than those in china and taiwan. Like chinese in singapore they are ethnic chinese but not by nationality. Among them there are so many who understand chinese history and geography and are against independence though empathize with ROC, why label those against taiwan independence as PRC agent?? go read the history of china and find out the truth yourself.Originally posted by lotus999:Are you sure you are really a Singaporean and not a PRC agent lurking in our midst?
Even Uncle Sam won't dare say it with such certain terms!
Why we can't say because "Even Uncle Sam won't dare say it with such certain terms"? Why must we follow uncle sam? Taiwan became officially known as part of china when Qing dynasty drove out the dutch in 1683. Uncle Sam got its independence only in 1776!! Between 1683 and 1776 the europeans migrants were taking land from the native indians to form colonies, killing all the indians along the way. Finally, the colonies defeated the British and then formed the United States. why do you think the american have a better say about the history of China??? -
Sometimes, when pple gets worked up by their leaders with promises based on emotional excitation, they easily forget the concequence of their choice.Originally posted by reyes:declare independence has no clear benefits at all
So who benefits in hving an "Independent Taiwan" ?
The Taiwanese ? US ? Japan ?
So who stand to loose ?
The Taiwanese ? US ? Japan ?
Who will become the ultimate pawn of such event?
Everyone knows the stake weights heavily against ordinary Taiwanese in such event.
So will war come to Taiwan soil ?
Absolutely. China has made its position very clear since 1947.
IF war comes, who's blood will be shed ?
Taiwanese NS boys and their families and along with PLA folks.
How about US Marines ? Will they come ? And if US forces does arrive, how much is US poll prepared to see more killings after their Middle East conquest ?
And if war comes, where will those pro-independent Taiwanese flee to ?
USA or maybe Japan. Forget about EU or SEA.
Remember that infamous US TAIWAN RELATIONS ACT and the formalization of US/Japan joint security agreement to include Taiwan ?
This decades-old strategic ambigiuity by the US and recent increased of Japanese military profile only served to encourage pro-independences Taiwanese instutions. Is this a pot of poisoned honey ready-to-serve for the Taiwanese ppl ?
History has a strange cruel way of repeating itself.
Europe has her 1st to 3rd Reich.
What about East Asia ?
Folks. Do read some history and you probably realise the real danger is somewhere further East in the dawn of the Rising Sun.