Taiwan-China Issue
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No dispute: "Taiwan is indeed as de facto independent state ", known as ROC.Originally posted by pearlie27:U really seemed quite confused. U admitted that there is no dispute on what lotus999 posted yet at the same time u insisted that there is no divide in the opinion. Didn't what lotus999 post showed that there are competing claims of sovereignty over Taiwan? Mayb u didn't explain your view properly?
No divide in the opinion: "It is recognition of one China, PRC or ROC, .... "
"competing claims of sovereignty over Taiwan?" : It is between ROC and PRC, not PRC and ROT. -
This may be out of topic,
But do you guys aware of a principally china's forum?
There's this guy there called Yun, who happened to be a Singaporean Hainanese though he calimed himself as Shanghaiese.
Anyway just to take note that this guy actually support what he said. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is between ROC and PRC, not PRC and ROT.
And that is why Beijing is giving KMT party member a red-carpet welcome since they last met in 1949.
If this visit help provide peaceful dialog between the 2 sides & reduce regional tension, why then US so far has yet to indicate its welcome to this historic visit to China ? -
The US does not want to see a united China. Few years ago, an american actually said to me that China should be like the Soviet Union, and provinces like Guangzhou should be independent together with HK, because Guangzhou chinese are so "different" from the northern chinese.Originally posted by Gun:
And that is why Beijing is giving KMT party member a red-carpet welcome since they last met in 1949.
If this visit help provide peaceful dialog between the 2 sides & reduce regional tension, why then US so far has yet to indicate its welcome to this historic visit to China ? -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:No dispute: "Taiwan is indeed as de facto independent state ", known as ROC.
No divide in the opinion: "It is recognition of one China, PRC or ROC, .... "
"competing claims of sovereignty over Taiwan?" : It is between ROC and PRC, not PRC and ROT.
your logic is beyond me! -
This is not logic, this is the reality. ROC and PRC exist but ROT does not. If you know the history of china (since becoming a republic), you will understand what it means.Originally posted by pearlie27: your logic is beyond me! -
Don't assume that u're the only one who knows China history.Originally posted by sgdiehard:This is not logic, this is the reality. ROC and PRC exist but ROT does not. If you know the history of china (since becoming a republic), you will understand what it means.
I somehow agree with lotus999 that your english needs some working. -
That is true . There is no ROT only ROC.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Taiwan has been an independent state known as Republic of China, not Republic of Taiwan. Taiwanese are also known as Chinese.
They prefer to call themselves Taiwanese in order to differentiate themselves from the Mainlanders. You can say you are Singaporean Chinese, Malaysian Chinese e.t.c. , but The people here cannot say I am Chinese from China (People automatically assume that they mean the PRC)- The Republic of China which is different from The People;s Republic of China e.t.c. e.t.c. e.t.c. People get tired of telling the "story" everytime!!
It is very confusing for most people and for the Immigration officials of Many Countries. PRC "Chinese" have different requirements for Immigration e.t.c. Taiwanese i.e. ROC Nationals on the other hand are welcome in most countries. -
Of course, many people know china history, but you are not one of them.Originally posted by pearlie27:Don't assume that u're the only one who knows China history.
I somehow agree with lotus999 that your english needs some working.
good english does not help you understand china history, because china history is not written in english. -
I mentioned in an earlier post, it is not really Historic. KMT and CCP meeting is nothing new. Just that Lien as Chairman is going over to Meet Hu. When the Leaders of the Two Ruling Parties on either sides of the Straits meet, that will be Historic.Originally posted by Gun:
And that is why Beijing is giving KMT party member a red-carpet welcome since they last met in 1949.
If this visit help provide peaceful dialog between the 2 sides & reduce regional tension, why then US so far has yet to indicate its welcome to this historic visit to China ?
The "Red Carpet" is just games played by the PRC. The CCP used to hate the KMT and the KMT used to hate the CCP equally before the Year 2000. Now they got a common adversary. The KMT after having lost twice had no place to turn.You did not see them making such "wonderful" gestures when they were in power for 50+ years. They were staunch Anti PRC and staunch Anti Communist.
The PRC on the other hand is having fun trying to reduce Chen's influence by inviting the Opposition Leadership into the PRC and giving them First Class treatment that they dont get at home.
This has got nothing to do with the US.The Taiwanese people will not unify under the CCP by accepting the One China Policy.
Everyone calls for the return to the 1992 consensus, yet everyone only follows the Interpretation of the OCP as stated by the PRC, No one follows the Intepretation of the OCP as stated by the ROC. You first have to accept both Intpretations openly eofore you can move forward ,That will be difficult as the two interpretations are as different as the two sides of a coin.
"The "1992 Consensus" refers to an agreement reached by the two sides in 1992 in Hong Kong, in which each side agreed to its own interpretation of the one-China principle. " -
Here is something you must have read in the news papers last year:Sept 2004.Originally posted by Blueray:I have been living in China for 3 years. For those of you who question China's communism, it is of a progressive kind. Their system very cleverly combines the merits of both capitalism and communism. China is a one party nation while Taiwan is a democracy but yet there are lots of Taiwanese who have decided that China is a better place to live and are emigrating to the mainland in large numbers. In fact China is already the 4th hottest destination for emigrating Taiwanese. Here are the related articles:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer
http://english.people.com.cn/200207/07/eng20020707_99237.shtml
Back in 1992, China and Taiwan have already reached a consensus that they will both accept the one-china policy (which is the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China.) But Lee Teng Hui and pro independence Taiwanese politicians went back on their words later and of course Beijing is angry with Taiwan.
Taiwanese constitution states very clearly that both the mainland and Taiwan are part of one China and it is illegal to carry out seperatist activities... what Chen shui bian is doing now is actually violating taiwan's constitution.
China is now the largest importer of Taiwanese goods and Taiwan has a very huge trade surplus with China. if Taiwan insists on independence, their economy will suffer terribly.
C P C vows to uphold Marxism as guiding ideology .
http://www.beijingportal.com.cn/7838/2004/09/27/[email protected]
How many of the Taiwanese "immigrants" Have sold out their Holdings here and moved to the PRC with their families and given up their Passports?? They are not moving there because they hate Taiwan or Love the PRC,It's just business. People are only moving part of their business.Most of them still have the Head Offices here in Taiwan and the RnD Depts are also here.
Japanese,Koreans ,Singaporeans have also done the same in droves . Not blaming Ah Bian for that too are you??
Taiwan's trade surplus if not really accurate.Taiwan ships out raw material and components to the PRC. Taiwan is not shipping finished goods for the PRC market. It is assembled there and shipped out of the PRC to a third country WITHOUT it coming back here for reshipment therefore showing a surplus. The difference is shown elsewhere in the PRC books as an export figure for the PRC. Taiwanese factories employ more than 12 million Mainlanders.
I mentioned the consensus in another post.
The ROC constitution is outdated , created by the KMT , that reallly has to be changed in order to reflect the current situation. Read the 1991 ammendment to the Constitution: Everyone conveniently seems to forget to read that when talking about the ROC constitution.
"In the 1991 constitutional amendment, Article 10 of the Additional Articles (now Article 11) limits the area covered by the Constitution to that of the Taiwan area, and recognizes the legitimacy of the rule of the People's Republic of China on the Chinese mainland."
The ROC is not guilty of trying to Separate!!! The PRC separated from the ROC in 1949 when the changed the name of the terrority they held from the R O C to the P R C. After all the R O C Govt was still a functioning Govt all the way up to 1972 when people switched recognition from ROC to the Separatist State known as the PRC. Is that not correct???? -
Originally posted by polau:
They're probably the same person!
This may be out of [b] topic,
But do you guys aware of a principally china's forum?
There's this guy there called Yun, who happened to be a Singaporean Hainanese though he calimed himself as Shanghaiese.
Anyway just to take note that this guy actually support what he said.[/b] -
Oh yeah?Originally posted by zheshi:+1 totally agree..
If you don't understand what others have written, your reply might make you look like a fool. And if you write in incoherent English, nobody will understand whatever great knowledge you might have. -
Sorry you don't understand my english, may be it is the same reason why I don't understand yours.Originally posted by lotus999:Oh yeah?
If you don't understand what others have written, your reply might make you look like a fool. And if you write in incoherent English, nobody will understand whatever great knowledge you might have. -
Hi pearli27Originally posted by pearlie27:Don't assume that u're the only one who knows China history.
I somehow agree with lotus999 that your english needs some working.
no point talking to him unless he goes for english remedial class.
cheers
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Originally posted by crazyazn:
Adversary ? Who ? DPP being played out as the bogeyman ?
The "Red Carpet" is just games played by the PRC. The CCP used to hate the KMT and the KMT used to hate the CCP equally before the Year 2000. Now they got a common adversary.
So why Ah Bian gave his blessing to his opposition for this HISTORIC visit ?
Is it abt political shrudness or pressure from some non-Asian entity besides Beijing ? (Hint: see next paragraph)
if this HISTORIC visit provides channels of dialogue and benefits the whole region ? Why not ?They (KMT) were staunch Anti PRC and staunch Anti Communist.This has got nothing to do with the US.
The status of ROC has nothing to do with US ? You are kidding, aren't you ?
This island has EVERYTHING to do with US from historical to future directions. ROC not only serves US's regional interest, but also a strategic containment of an upcoming "stratagic competitor". And that , IMO, is an understatement of what Taiwan meant to Washington.The PRC on the other hand is having fun trying to reduce Chen's influence by inviting the Opposition Leadership into the PRC and giving them First Class treatment that they dont get at home.
Was it "fun" when Ah Bian plays the tension-trigger in Asia ?The Taiwanese people will not unify under the CCP by accepting the One China Policy.
what a sweeping statement. e'nuf said. -
Originally posted by crazyazn:
Nice to be patriotic. But more often then not, the heart or even the brain, gets overide by the desire of one's stomach. It s something like straight-laced Singapore gov suddenly turning to pole-dancers and Casinos (x2).
How many of the Taiwanese "immigrants" Have sold out their Holdings here and moved to the PRC with their families and given up their Passports??
Is that not correct? -
I'd tell that American that he is entitled to his opinion and remind him China was 'broken up' and re-united a few times long before the USA ever come into existence. Time will tell if "United" will disappear from this American continent.Originally posted by sgdiehard:The US does not want to see a united China. Few years ago, an american actually said to me that China should be like the Soviet Union, and provinces like Guangzhou should be independent together with HK, because Guangzhou chinese are so "different" from the northern chinese.
Nothing is forever. -
It is not a sweeping statement: The Taiwanese will not unify UNDER the CCP by accepting The One China Policy.Adversary ? Who ? DPP being played out as the bogeyman ?
So why Ah Bian gave his blessing to his opposition for this HISTORIC visit ?
Is it abt political shrudness or pressure from some non-Asian entity besides Beijing ? (Hint: see next paragraph)
if this HISTORIC visit provides channels of dialogue and benefits the whole region ? Why not ? [/quote]
Ofcourse, it is the ruling party, The Channels have been open for the PRC to visit even before PC came into power.
President Chen(PC) did not "Bless" this trip He told Lien that he can go BUT was warned that the trip is not a sanctioned Govt trip . Lien is not allowed to sign any agreements on anything relating the ROC Sovereignty.
ROC is important to the Taiwanese for their nation is threatened but Asia find it easier kissing Chinese (I'm talking about Nationality) butt and putting unrealistic pressure on the ROC Govt. In layman's terms it is known as gangbanging.Was it "fun" when Ah Bian plays the tension-trigger in Asia ?
He has invited the PRC Govt to visit many many times.If they dont want to come, How can you blame PC??. If the PRC does not believe President Chen that is not PC's Fault.
PC's priority is looking after the Interests of the ROC. His first interest is to protect the Sovereignty of the Nation. You can worry about yourself,but the Elected Govt has to consider those who live here. the 23+ Mil Taiwanese .
Who in Asia deserves consideration when you dont give the Taiwanese Govt the time of day. Asia will have to live with it even if all goes to hell. 5 years ago, when the KMT were in power, there were no such moves to make such Historic trips , were there?? That is because the CPC will not deal with the RULING Party. Does not matter who is in Power.
[quote]Originally posted by Gun:what a sweeping statement. e'nuf said.
The only way for Hu to talk to Lien was with Lien accepting the OCP openly , which he did. That is good for the Taiwanese, now they know for certain that Lien is really a full time Mainlander.He spokeof his past in the PRC,His family in the PRC and only mentioned Taiwan when he had something to bitch about. What a shameless guy.He really does not give a hoot about the Taiwanese. -
Originally posted by crazyazn:
Hi there,
Here is something you must have read in the news papers last year:Sept 2004.
[b]C P C vows to uphold Marxism as guiding ideology .
http://www.beijingportal.com.cn/7838/2004/09/27/[email protected]
How many of the Taiwanese "immigrants" Have sold out their Holdings here and moved to the PRC with their families and given up their Passports?? They are not moving there because they hate Taiwan or Love the PRC,It's just business. People are only moving part of their business.Most of them still have the Head Offices here in Taiwan and the RnD Depts are also here.
Japanese,Koreans ,Singaporeans have also done the same in droves . Not blaming Ah Bian for that too are you??
Taiwan's trade surplus if not really accurate.Taiwan ships out raw material and components to the PRC. Taiwan is not shipping finished goods for the PRC market. It is assembled there and shipped out of the PRC to a third country WITHOUT it coming back here for reshipment therefore showing a surplus. The difference is shown elsewhere in the PRC books as an export figure for the PRC. Taiwanese factories employ more than 12 million Mainlanders.
I mentioned the consensus in another post.
The ROC constitution is outdated , created by the KMT , that reallly has to be changed in order to reflect the current situation. Read the 1991 ammendment to the Constitution: Everyone conveniently seems to forget to read that when talking about the ROC constitution.
"In the 1991 constitutional amendment, Article 10 of the Additional Articles (now Article 11) limits the area covered by the Constitution to that of the Taiwan area, and recognizes the legitimacy of the rule of the People's Republic of China on the Chinese mainland."
The ROC is not guilty of trying to Separate!!! The PRC separated from the ROC in 1949 when the changed the name of the terrority they held from the R O C to the P R C. After all the R O C Govt was still a functioning Govt all the way up to 1972 when people switched recognition from ROC to the Separatist State known as the PRC. Is that not correct????[/b]
I have been living in China for the past few years. I have met lots of Taiwanese who have come to the mainland for work. They told me that nowadays it is difficult to find work in Taiwan that they have to look elsewhere for work. Most of them told me that unless things change in Taiwan they plan to stay in the mainland for good. In fact there is a sharp increase in the number of Taiwanese buying houses in the mainland. Under Ah Bian's rule, Taiwanese unemployment rate, crime rate have indeed soared rapidly. Read this:
http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20010510/20010510o1.html
More and more Taiwanese are losing confidence in the current administration and are migrating elsewhere. Here's the related article:
http://atimes.com/atimes/China/FF30Ad04.html
Money will always be a key driving factor of migration but there are many people who have migrated to China simply bcos they like the country. One good example is this American lady who prefers to live in the mainland despite the fact she could be making more $$$ elsewhere. Read her blog:
http://www.speakingofchina.com/journal/archives/000112.html -
Originally posted by lotus999:Hi pearli27
no point talking to him unless he goes for english remedial class.
cheers 
-
http://english1.people.com.cn/200505/01/eng20050501_183419.html
UPDATED: 10:14, May 01, 2005
Hu-Lien meeting evokes worldwide applause
The international community has made warm responses since General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Hu Jintao and visiting Chairman Lien Chan of the Kuomintang (KMT) party of China held their historic meeting in Beijing Friday.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said: "We believe cross-Straits dialogue is important to promoting peace and stability in the region" and the United States will "continue working with the parties in the region and continue to encourage them to engage in dialogue to promote peace and stability in the region."
European Commission spokesperson Emma Udwin said: "We welcome the first step. We hope this is far from a full story, we hope this would prove to be a first step to a positive direction."
Japan's Asahi Shimbun newspaper said the CPC and KMT leaders found common ground against "Taiwan independence" in their talks.
In the joint press communique, the two sides called for reinstating cross-Straits dialogue, putting an end to hostilities and signing a peace treaty. An opportunity is looming for easing tensions across the Taiwan Straits.
Similar views were carried in other Japanese newspapers such as Mainichi, Tokyo Shimbun and Yomiuri, which holds the KMT will handle the cross-Straits relations according to the joint communique if it wins the 2008 elections in Taiwan. It may herald a quick warming of political and other ties, according to Yomiuri.
The Spanish newspaper El Pais published a cross-column article Saturday, highlighting the Hu-Lien handshake in Beijing. It said the historic meeting signifies "joint efforts of the CPC and the KMT against the 'Taiwan independence' trend."
The London-based Financial Times viewed the Hu-lien meeting as an end to decades of hostilities between the CPC and the KMT, saying the two parties have reached unprecedented reconciliation.
The Guardian newspaper praised Hu and Lien for their commitment to common efforts to break the impasse across the Taiwan Straits, viewing the efforts as beneficial to peaceful development in east Asia.
Meanwhile, overseas Chinese voiced heart-felt congratulations on and support for the Beijing meeting, which they said have dealt a heavy blow at secessionists in Taiwan.
In Washington, The National Association for China's Unification said in a statement that the leaders of the two parties have defined the common ground of sticking to the "1992 Consensus," opposing "independence of Taiwan," seeking cross-Straits stability, promoting the development of cross-Straits relations and safeguarding the interests of the people on both sides of the Straits.
Overseas Chinese in Australia said in their statement: the Hu-Lien meeting stands for a new phase in the relations of the two parties, which have expressed common desire and determination to promote the cross-Strait ties and open up prospects for the future of the nation as a whole.
Elsewhere in South Africa, Hungary, Myanmar and Cambodia, overseas Chinese hailed likewise the landmark meeting between the two party leaders, expecting a step forward in the course of reunification.
Lien Chan, leading a KMT delegation, kicked off a week-long visit to China's mainland on Tuesday, the first by a top KMT leader since 1949.
James Soong, chairman of Taiwan's People First Party, is scheduled to follow Lien's suit on May 5-12. -
http://english1.people.com.cn/200504/27/eng20050427_182849.html
UPDATED: 14:44, April 27, 2005
Int'l community, overseas Chinese react positively to KMT chief's Mainland visit
The international community and overseas Chinese have reacted positively to the current Mainland visit by Lien Chan, chairman of the Kuomintang (KMT) of China.
Lien arrived in Nanjing on Tuesday afternoon to start an eight-day Mainland visit, the first time a KMT leader has set foot on the Mainland in more than half a century.
The European Union (EU) expressed welcome to Lien's visit to the mainland.
"Our position on the cross-Straits relations remains the same, that is, we adhere to the one-China policy and encourage any move to improve cross-Strait relations through peaceful means," said Emma Udwin, spokeswoman for external relations of the European Commission, the EU's executive arm.
"Anything that helps improve the cross-Straits ties will be welcomed," she stressed.
In Japan, overseas Chinese and Chinese-Japanese said they believe the tour not only helps ease tensions across the Taiwan Straits, but also conforms to the willingness of the Taiwan people for a stable relationship.
Amid strained cross-Straits relations, Lien's visit is very significant in helping alleviate the tense situation, said Yin Qiuxiong, chairman of the association of overseas Chinese and Chinese-Japanese in Japan.
He said overseas Chinese in Japan have high expectations about the scheduled talks between Lien and Chinese Communist Party leader Hu Jintao, hoping the meeting will lead to the break of the deadlock of the cross-Straits relations.
The majority of the Taiwan compatriots favor Lien's tour and object to the Taiwan authorities' policy toward the mainland, Yin said, citing a latest survey in Taiwan.
In Singapore, the leading Straits Times newspaper hailed the visit as a platform to demonstrate cross-Straits "goodwill and collaboration" which "can reduce tension and lead eventually to a settlement."
Chinese Thais looked at Lien's trip as a good movement and all Chinese Thai societies strongly supported it, said Boonyong Yongcharoenrat, president of Thai Young Chinese Chamber of Commerce and also secretary general of World Chinese Unity Thailand Center.
"Lien Chan's Mainland trip is of historic significance that will positively improve exchanges cross the Straits between civilians and in fields of politics, economy and culture," he said.
Boonyong's affirmation of Lien's trip is echoed by local Chinese newspapers.
Sing Sian Yit Pao, a local Chinese daily, published two editorials on Tuesday, hailing Lien's trip as a milestone in relations of the two sides cross the Straits.
World Daily, a Chinese daily having subscribers worldwide, also published a commentary lauding Lien's trip as of historic significance.
Overseas Chinese in Myanmar welcomed Lien's mainland trip.
Huang Yaoting, chairman of the Myanmar-Guangdong Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said the visit is an event that overseas Chinese love to see and hear, and support. It also indicates the Chinese government and people's sincere hope and firm determination for peaceful reunification, he added.
Lu Zhenpin, chairman of the Fujian Natives' Association in Myanmar, urged overseas Chinese to unite further in opposition to "Taiwan independence" and strive for peaceful reunification at the earliest possible date.
In Spain, the Overseas Chinese Association issued a statement backing Lien's visit to the Mainland. It is a good beginning for cross-Straits dialogue, representing a new opportunity for the development of relations and peace and stability, the statement said.
The overseas Chinese in Spain stand firm for the reunification of China and against "Taiwan independence," said the statement.
Cai Weizhou, deputy chief of Cyprus-China Friendship Association, said the trip came after China passed the Anti-Secession Law, illustrating the fact that the majority of Taiwanese hope for improvement of cross-Straits relations. It will be in the fundamental interests of Chinese as a whole to settle the Taiwan question under the one-China principle, Cai said.
Overseas Chinese in Africa see the visit as an approval of one-China principle, but a heavy blow to those preaching "Taiwan independence."
Ye Beiyang, president of the African Association for Promotion of Peaceful Reunification of China, said Lien's visit will have great impacts on politics in Taiwan and more and more people will follow the suit.
Besides Lien, James C. Y. Soong, chairman of the Taiwan-based People First Party, is also scheduled to visit the Mainland in May.
Source: Xinhua -
Originally posted by crazyazn:
are you claiming every single eligible Taiwanese voters does not agreed to the above ? If able is true, than I retract my argument. So HOW many Taiwanese disagreed with The One China Policy ?
It is not a sweeping statement: The Taiwanese will not unify UNDER the CCP by accepting The One China Policy.
If that is so, DPP should hv won a resounding victory in the last election. Or was it a sympathy vote that Ah Bian managed by taking on a bullet ?The only way for Hu to talk to Lien was with Lien accepting the OCP openly , which he did. That is good for the Taiwanese, now they know for certain that Lien is really a full time Mainlander.He spokeof his past in the PRC,His family in the PRC and only mentioned Taiwan when he had something to bitch about. What a shameless guy.He really does not give a hoot about the Taiwanese.
I see a personal distaste of KMT in your statement. I supposed hving live there for 20 yrs places you in a more objective view about this HISTORIC visit.
Sadly, your posting fail to display such attribute. -
Originally posted by boy in blues:
Soong's upcoming visit to PRC will be even more interesting as he may be carrying a personal letter from Ah Bian for Hu. I supposed he now realise the immense impact Lien's visit has made to not just on both sides, but has a positive resonance globally. His U-turn in his position on prior to the visits and sudden request for Soong to send a letter on his behalf shows how desperately his party wants to win back the initiative.
Besides Lien, James C. Y. Soong, chairman of the Taiwan-based People First Party, is also scheduled to visit the Mainland in May.
US undoubtly is watching this very closely, and probably figuring how to handle's China's latest "soft power" approach.