china attitude to japan
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the war has nothing to do with race. japan invaded china. what happened between japan and china during WWII is between 2 countries not 2 races. it is wrong to see this issue from a race perspective.Originally posted by fett:how would you feel if a guy comes to your place, pick a fight, slaughter you family, was later to be made a riches kid on the block, told the world and his kids a different spin of the story and blame you for starting the whole thing? i'm a singaporean and i do not have the Chinese psyche, or a sense of history, but i won't feel good about it. i suggest you stop thinking as an outsider and start thinking in a Chinese perspective. -
To be practical, just look at Japanese people, culture and military today. Is it still a country of the old likely to revive its old ambition to invade others for its own nationalism.Originally posted by dragg:the war has nothing to do with race. japan invaded china. what happened between japan and china during WWII is between 2 countries not 2 races. it is wrong to see this issue from a race perspective.
If it is, then the rest of Asian countries ought to be fully prepared. It is better not to wait until the worse has happened. So it is not a matter to be taken too lightly too for many people likely to be affected. Trying to write WWW 2 differently or deny atrocities committed against other people in the region is one clear sign that all is not well. -
what has your posting got to do with my point?Originally posted by robertteh:To be practical, just look at Japanese people, culture and military today. Is it still a country of the old likely to revive its old ambition to invade others for its own nationalism.
If it is, then the rest of Asian countries ought to be fully prepared. It is better not to wait until the worse has happened. So it is not a matter to be taken too lightly too for many people likely to be affected. Trying to write WWW 2 differently or deny atrocities committed against other people in the region is one clear sign that all is not well.
anyway.. if you are concerned about the stabililty of asia i suggest you worry about china. she is the one that is really growing. china is the one that most probably will destabilised the region.
To say that japan will revive it militarism because of the reasons you cited is a bit stretched. -
Go to these sites and read up the real issues of this whole episode.
Any wild personal speculations by anyone here would do no justice to the events of those days in China during Japanese Occupation .
Can anyone really blame the Chinese for their anger against an unremorse and unapologetic Japan?
http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/page1.html
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/ -
Originally posted by miong:
reading the article wont change anybody's opinion. there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts. we are not here to talk about this. asking people to read those articles is meaningless. who is blaming china for being angry?
Go to these sites and read up the [b]real issues of this whole episode.
Any wild personal speculations by anyone here would do no justice to the facts of the matter .
Can anyone really blame the Chinese for their anger against an unremorse and unapologetic Japan?
http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/page1.html
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/[/b] -
Originally posted by dragg:the war has nothing to do with race. japan invaded china. what happened between japan and china during WWII is between 2 countries not 2 races. it is wrong to see this issue from a race perspective.
Race ? Check fett's post again. Where was there ANY mentioned about race ?
Your dogmatic clinging to your skewed perception of this history has severely impede your ability to comprehend his argument.
I am not sretching this observation here, am I ? -
Can you see the issue actually arises from the Japanese race because the Japanese based on WWW II invasions of other Asian countries and other recent actions and conducts is a potential unrepentant aggressor. The Koreans are right in going to the streets to protest against Japanese's show of strengths in claiming sovereignty for those islands off Korean seas.Originally posted by dragg:what has your posting got to do with my point?
anyway.. if you are concerned about the stabililty of asia i suggest you worry about china. she is the one that is really growing. china is the one that most probably will destabilised the region.
To say that japan will revive it militarism because of the reasons you cited is a bit stretched.
You mean you cannot see all these recent developments and you don't regard Japanese as the aggressors and potential aggressors when they are now re-asserting itself after recovering from the last war. Don't say you are not forewarned (unless connected in some ways) when they start attacking the Koreas or other Asian countries one more time? -
Gun,Originally posted by Gun:
Race ? Check fett's post again. Where was there ANY mentioned about race ?
Your dogmatic clinging to your skewed perception of this history has severely impede your ability to comprehend his argument.
I am not sretching this observation here, am I ?
it is ok if you want to give an opinion but no personal attacks. we are not here for juvenile bickering. you cannot force your opinion on others. if you cannot control your emotions i suggest you stop posting, or at least stop commenting on my post. everybody is entitled to their opinion. your comment (Your dogmatic clinging to your skewed perception of this history has severely impede your ability to comprehend his argument) is totally uncalled for.
Fett posted 'i suggest you stop thinking as an outsider and start thinking in a Chinese perspective'
is 'start thinking in a chinese perspective' not race related?
dont jump to conclusion and start insulting people. obviously your emotions are getting the better of you.
this i believe answered your question of whether you are stretching your observation!!! -
Again, you never cease to amazed me how you skirted around the key issues of latest tension while coming back to claim "meaningless" to read these facts .Originally posted by dragg:reading the article wont change anybody's opinion. there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts. we are not here to talk about this. asking people to read those articles is meaningless. who is blaming china for being angry?
Strangely, you share similar outlook as the authors of those Japanese textbooks. OMG !
Have I stretch this analogy too far ? -
You are right on the dot on this issue!!Originally posted by robertteh:To be practical, just look at Japanese people, culture and military today. Is it still a country of the old likely to revive its old ambition to invade others for its own nationalism.
If it is, then the rest of Asian countries ought to be fully prepared. It is better not to wait until the worse has happened. So it is not a matter to be taken too lightly too for many people likely to be affected. Trying to write WWW 2 differently or deny atrocities committed against other people in the region is one clear sign that all is not well.
Is Japan still the country likely to revive its old ambition to invade others for its own nationalism?
Continue to pay respect to the war heros, including war criminals of WW2 in the shrine, and changing history text book to justify their invasion of China, Korea and other parts of asia, are the two clear indications that Japan is not at all remorseful for what they did during WW2.
Compare this with Germany, can you imagine a church or memorial hall built for all political leaders of Germany to pay respect to the Nazis or Hitler? I don't know about the German history text books but the Germans are accepted by its neighbours which they occupied during WW2 not only in Europe but also internationally. Are the Brits, the Dutch, the Flemish, the Austrian, the French, ...... more forgiving than the Chinese or the Koreans, or are they more forgetful about the history? No!!!! The German had come face to face to the crimes they committed.
The Japan has not learned and with the greater influence of the right-wing politicians and the rise of nationalism, they will only need to change their constitutions and they are ready to send troops overseas.
Beware!!! -
Can you justify your point, why is "china is the one that most probably will destabilised the region"? because it is really growing? has singapore not been growing in the last 20 years?Originally posted by dragg:what has your posting got to do with my point?
anyway.. if you are concerned about the stabililty of asia i suggest you worry about china. she is the one that is really growing. china is the one that most probably will destabilised the region.
To say that japan will revive it militarism because of the reasons you cited is a bit stretched. -
don't be another Gun. stick to the topic and no personal attacks. if you have read all my posting carefully you will know i am a singaporean chinese. relay your opinon without prejudice. it is not necessary to even hint that i am connected to the japanese in any way. it is a cheap shot.Originally posted by robertteh:Can you see the issue actually arises from the Japanese race because the Japanese as a race based on WWW II invasions of other Asian countries and other recent actions and conducts as unrepentant aggressors. The Koreans are right in going to the streets to protest against Japanese's show of strengths in claiming sovereignty for those islands off Korean seas.
japan not only invaded china. many non-chinese countries were invaded too. the war has nothing to do with race. I agree that korea has every right to do it.
You mean you cannot see all these recent developments and don't regard Japanese as the aggressors and potential aggressors when they are now re-asserting itself after they have recovered from the last war. Don't say we never warn you (unless you are connected with them in some ways) if the Japanese start to attack Koreas or other Asian countries again one more time? -
Sending their troops overseas is not the issue here.I'm all for Japan contributing her share in peacekeeping and humanitarian efforts, so I think it should not be dragged into the spat.Originally posted by sgdiehard:You are right on the dot on this issue!!
Is Japan still the country likely to revive its old ambition to invade others for its own nationalism?
Continue to pay respect to the war heros, including war criminals of WW2 in the shrine, and changing history text book to justify their invasion of China, Korea and other parts of asia, are the two clear indications that Japan is not at all remorseful for what they did during WW2.
Compare this with Germany, can you imagine a church or memorial hall built for all political leaders of Germany to pay respect to the Nazis or Hitler? I don't know about the German history text books but the Germans are accepted by its neighbours which they occupied during WW2 not only in Europe but also internationally. Are the Brits, the Dutch, the Flemish, the Austrian, the French, ...... more forgiving than the Chinese or the Koreans, or are they more forgetful about the history? No!!!! The German had come face to face to the crimes they committed.
The Japan has not learned and with the greater influence of the right-wing politicians and the rise of nationalism, they will only need to change their constitutions and they are ready to send troops overseas.
Beware!!!
Now, the right-wing must be checked, because the rest of Japan can do far more good with the stuff they have than the former. -
Originally posted by dragg:the war has nothing to do with race. japan invaded china. what happened between japan and china during WWII is between 2 countries not 2 races. it is wrong to see this issue from a race perspective.
You are avoiding the issue. It is not about race or countries, look at the issue from the perspective of those who were invaded by the japanese during WW2, chinese, koreans, philippino, ..... and feel what they feel. -
Gun,Originally posted by Gun:Again, you never cease to amazed me how you skirted around the key issues of latest tension while coming back to claim "meaningless" to read these facts .
Strangely, you share similar outlook as the authors of those Japanese textbooks. OMG !
[color=blue]here you are jumping into conclusion again
Have I stretch this analogy too far ? [/color]
do i have to explain to you all my posting? you made a mistake with your prior post. now you are making the same mistake again. which part of my post do you not understand?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reading the article wont change anybody's opinion. there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts. we are not here to talk about this. asking people to read those articles is meaningless. who is blaming china for being angry?
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'there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts' tells you i understand why china is angry. isn't reading the articles meaningless since i already understand and accepted their position? -
Dear dragg,Originally posted by dragg:don't be another Gun. stick to the topic and no personal attacks. if you have read all my posting carefully you will know i am a singaporean chinese. relay your opinon without prejudice. it is not necessary to even hint that i am connected to the japanese in any way. it is a cheap shot.[/color]
I regret that you interpret some of my posting as a personnel attack. It is not.
If one finds my description of "dogmatic clinging to a skewed persception" too personal and hurtful for one's emotional well-being, then I strongly suggest he/she learn to consider the victims of Japanese aggressions feelings in comparison before saying "meaningless" to read these facts (of history).
enuf of above disclaimer, now, let me hear your reply to robertteh's post . -
Singapore has indeed been growing in the last 20 years. but are we big and strong enough to wage a war against anyone? more importantly do anyone have the impression we are going in that direction? we are well known for being pragmatic. war is against our ideology. it is moot to take us as a comparison.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Can you justify your point, why is "china is the one that most probably will destabilised the region"? because it is really growing? has singapore not been growing in the last 20 years?
as for china there is no denying she wants to 'take back' taiwan. the anti-secession law is a good enough proof. a taiwan-china war will destabilised asia, if not the whole world. -
You are missing the point. Is is not the race perspective, it is the perspective of those who were invaded by Japan during WW2, the chinese, koreans,.......Originally posted by dragg:the war has nothing to do with race. japan invaded china. what happened between japan and china during WWII is between 2 countries not 2 races. it is wrong to see this issue from a race perspective. -
[quote]Originally posted by dragg:
do i have to explain to you all my posting? you made a mistake with your prior post. now you are making the same mistake again. which part of my post do you not understand?
Thanks for re-phrasing your positon on this. But I note those re-phased 2nd edition reads differently from the 1st.
1st edition:
"reading the article wont change anybody's opinion. there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts. we are not here to talk about this. asking people to read those articles is meaningless. who is blaming china for being angry?
2nd edition:
"there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts' tells you i understand why china is angry. isn't reading the articles meaningless since i already understand and accepted their position?"
The 1st is describing a perception akin to those Japanese revisionist who believe any articles on WW2 are "meaningless".
The 2nd clearly expressively is your own opinion.
But WHAT hv you "already understand" ? How do you arrived at accepting the victim's position ?
In your earlier reply to miong (in 1st edition), the entire paragraph shows you simply don't care about his/her links and sharing of those facts.
And that is why I commented how both Japanese authors shares similar outlook as yours.
As u can see, careful literary expression is as important has any changes made within history books for today's students.
The Pen is Mightier than the Sword.
Japanese and Chinese (national) historians knows that very well. You should too. -
I too believe the Japanese can contribute very much for peacekeeping and humanitarian work worldwide. But the constitutions do specifically forbid sending of troops overseas and we need to be very careful when they change this part of the constitutions.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Sending their troops overseas is not the issue here.I'm all for Japan contributing her share in peacekeeping and humanitarian efforts, so I think it should not be dragged into the spat.
Now, the right-wing must be checked, because the rest of Japan can do far more good with the stuff they have than the former.
The German, after WW1 continued to feel their actions during the war were justified. German nationalism rose as they felt they were penalised and suffered economically though it is the great depression that hurt everybody. Finally, the Nazis Germany was strong enough to ignore the Treaty of Versailles and started sending troops into the Rhineland and there were no response from the other countries or they were incapable to stop them. World War 2 is now a history. But are there lessons to be learned?
What do the young japanese think about the war? if they were taught from young that they were justified in their actions in WW2, they will grow up thinking that they were unjustly criticised for ww2......respecting the war heros, rise of nationalism, greater influence of the right wing politicians,.....how to check and when will it come that there is nothing we can do?
Both Germany and Japan have become economic power after the war, but why is the former respected and the latter continued to be suspected by their respective neighbours? -
Originally posted by dragg:Fett posted 'i suggest you stop thinking as an outsider and start thinking in a Chinese perspective'
is 'start thinking in a chinese perspective' not race related?
dont jump to conclusion and start insulting people. obviously your emotions are getting the better of you. this i believe answered your question of whether you are stretching your observation!!!
dragg,
Suggest u read Fett post one more time and quote "Chinese" within its context. It is referring to nationality of China rather than ethnicity.
I agree with Fett observation that you are more prepared to see China as the bogeyman. Makes it even more revealing when you claim Japanese WW2 behavour towards her Asian communities is anything but racial. Where on-Earth had given u the impression of that ? -
Your postings on this topic seem to be very forgiving to what the Japanese have done in world war II and the recent spats with the Koreans.Originally posted by dragg:don't be another Gun. stick to the topic and no personal attacks. if you have read all my posting carefully you will know i am a singaporean chinese. relay your opinon without prejudice. it is not necessary to even hint that i am connected to the japanese in any way. it is a cheap shot.
You added a twist to the bias by saying that China is the threat. I don't understand your logic or facts that is all. I will refrain from any other comments and if anything is personal I will withdraw it as I have done in my amended post. Regards to all for a good and objective discussion on this issue. I am happy there are many here will still stand up for their rights if they have been hurt and are being threatened again. -
We are not big but we are strong. Are we strong enough? We made it known that our war will be a war of defence in enemy terrorities. and we are clear, that to protect our sovereignty and the lives of or love ones, we will fight whether we are strong enough or not. What do our neighbouring countries think about us is not an issue.Originally posted by dragg:Singapore has indeed been growing in the last 20 years. but are we big and strong enough to wage a war against anyone? more importantly do anyone have the impression we are going in that direction? we are well known for being pragmatic. war is against our ideology. it is moot to take us as a comparison.
as for china there is no denying she wants to 'take back' taiwan. the anti-secession law is a good enough proof. a taiwan-china war will destabilised asia, if not the whole world.
So what have china said about its military expansion? Taiwan said they wanted to take back mainland China since1949 and China wants to take back Taiwan since ah bian wants to declare independence. Is taking back Taiwan a war of expansion as a result of the growth in China?? It is the contrary in reality. The growth of China have so far brought about the economic growth in the region, it has narrow the gaps between the lives of people on both sides of the straits, making peaceful reconciliation more achievable. Unless and until ah bian declare Taiwan independence, China is not in a hurry to wage a war in Taiwan. There is no denial on the part of China and it is clear for the rest.
Will China- Taiwan war destablises asia, or the whole world? it depends, who else want to be involved. that is hypothetical and i will not dwell in it. -
Any war between China and Taiwan will bring us all in, especially the littoral states of the Malaccan Straits.
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Originally posted by Gun:
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[quote]Originally posted by dragg:
[b]do i have to explain to you all my posting? you made a mistake with your prior post. now you are making the same mistake again. which part of my post do you not understand?
Thanks for re-phrasing your positon on this. But I note those re-phased 2nd edition reads differently from the 1st.
1st edition:
"reading the article wont change anybody's opinion. there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts. we are not here to talk about this. asking people to read those articles is meaningless. who is blaming china for being angry?
2nd edition:
"there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts' tells you i understand why china is angry. isn't reading the articles meaningless since i already understand and accepted their position?"
The 1st is describing a perception akin to those Japanese revisionist who believe any articles on WW2 are "meaningless".
The 2nd clearly expressively is your own opinion.
But WHAT hv you "already understand" ? How do you arrived at accepting the victim's position ?
In your earlier reply to miong (in 1st edition), the entire paragraph shows you simply don't care about his/her links and sharing of those facts.
And that is why I commented how both Japanese authors shares similar outlook as yours.
As u can see, careful literary expression is as important has any changes made within history books for today's students.
The Pen is Mightier than the Sword.
Japanese and Chinese (national) historians knows that very well. You should too.
[/b]
Originally posted by miong:
Go to these sites and read up the real issues of this whole episode.
Any wild personal speculations by anyone here would do no justice to the facts of the matter .
Can anyone really blame the Chinese for their anger against an unremorse and unapologetic Japan?
http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/page1.html
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/
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miong asked people to go to the site and read up on the real issues right?
then i replied
reading the article wont change anybody's opinion. there is no doubt that japan is guilty of war crimes and denial of facts. we are not here to talk about this. asking people to read those articles is meaningless. who is blaming china for being angry?
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you see the punctuation (full stop) after the word meaningless? 'who is blaming china for being angry?' is my reply to miong's question 'Can anyone really blame the Chinese for their anger against an unremorse and unapologetic Japan'