What has the Chinese/Koreans been teaching their students?
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It is true that China need to carry out more reforms to narrow the income gap, protect the environment, ...... and they do have a long way to go, for heaven's sake they moved back 20 years in development during the 10 yrs cultural revolution and started opening up to the free world only in the early 80s, it is a 1.3 billion populations nation with an area bigger than Europe. What it has achieved over the last 20 yrs have been remarkable and it should be given time to fine tune the mentality of the people. Even the succession of the heads of the politburo were impressive compared to many old leaders hanging on to their power in the "democratic" country.Originally posted by LazerLordz:For all you people who so passionately believe that China is a much more free country these days, think again.The Politburo will still clamp down and suppress free will and choice.Look at the issue from the whole spectrum and don't micromanage it to make yourself feel good about it.
A China that is rational and values her own people is worthy of respect.I too wish that day will come, but now, they still have a very long way to go.Protesting against Japanese refusal to change their textbooks is one thing, realising that it will not have much impact on the Japanese youth is another thing altogether seeing as to how apathetic the latter are towards Japanese nationalism and politics.
Don't burn some flags and end up having your own house on fire.Flames are uncontrollable, we should not play with them.
But, all these short comings in China do not justify the invasion of another country. We are talking about how the Japanese are changing the history to justify their invasion during WW2, into China, into Korea, and South East Asia. To the people of South East Asia, occupation by Japanese might be just another choice between the colonial masters or imperial master, and nothing of their own. To the people of China and Korea, they were defending their own countries. The communists and KMT in china even join hands in repelling the Japanese. Look like many Singaporeans cannot understand why, but please do not mix up the issue.
With a clear mind, we can burn flags in our house with no fear of burning anything uncessary. With a muddled mind, even lighting a candle can burn everything down with it. -
Perhaps we might have an agreement here.I myself would defend anyone who threatens my loved ones.Could be that we as a small island nation where things are transient and nothing really stays for more than 30 years, our mentality does not let us see some of the right-wing Japanese's actions today as how the mainlanders see them.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is true that China need to carry out more reforms to narrow the income gap, protect the environment, ...... and they do have a long way to go, for heaven's sake they moved back 20 years in development during the 10 yrs cultural revolution and started opening up to the free world only in the early 80s, it is a 1.3 billion populations nation with an area bigger than Europe. What it has achieved over the last 20 yrs have been remarkable and it should be given time to fine tune the mentality of the people. Even the succession of the heads of the politburo were impressive compared to many old leaders hanging on to their power in the "democratic" country.
But, all these short comings in China do not justify the invasion of another country. We are talking about how the Japanese are changing the history to justify their invasion during WW2, into China, into Korea, and South East Asia. To the people of South East Asia, occupation by Japanese might be just another choice between the colonial masters or imperial master, and nothing of their own. To the people of China and Korea, they were defending their own countries. The communists and KMT in china even join hands in repelling the Japanese. Look like many Singaporeans cannot understand why, but please do not mix up the issue.
With a clear mind, we can burn flags in our house with no fear of burning anything uncessary. With a muddled mind, even lighting a candle can burn everything down with it.
Conversely, as long as we do not forget our own war dead, I think we have done fairly well. -
We have an agreement here, definitely.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Perhaps we might have an agreement here.I myself would defend anyone who threatens my loved ones.Could be that we as a small island nation where things are transient and nothing really stays for more than 30 years, our mentality does not let us see some of the right-wing Japanese's actions today as how the mainlanders see them.
Conversely, as long as we do not forget our own war dead, I think we have done fairly well. -
i never said that. what i stand for is for the entire chinese race, not mainland china.and ask yourself, does singapore treat you like its own?Originally posted by dragg:please. do you think the mainland chinese think that you are one of them.
you're more like a peasant that the aristocratic government can manipulate to achieve their goals. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Are we on the same page about "blood is thicker than water"? Family relations are more important than relations with outsiders. Family members may fight with one another, but when they perceive external threats, they stick together and defend the family.
Precisely.Blood is indeed thicker than water, so if the PRC fellas never even realised that there are worse perps out there in their own nation. Take a moment and think,
On the very same day of the Anti-Japanese riots in China, a protest in the south by a few thousand villagers was suppressed violently resulting in the deaths of two elderly women.What's up with your claim that they have the freedom to riot?It's all a staged and crafted act for the world to see.That's the problem with many people today, they can't look beyond economic ideals and see the PRC for her own ruthless nature which is still around.
If Japan were to become a U.N. Security Council permanent member, and the Chinese citizens were to protest -- a la Tiananmen -- against their own Politburo for their corruption and incompetence, could you possibly imagine what will happen? The whole world would roll on the floor laughing their heads off at the Chinese who are perhaps the only race that enjoys "zi ji ren da zi ji ren" (right hand fight left hand). One Taiwanese pan-green/pan-blue fiasco is embarrassing enough.
Every country in this world has its own internal problems, and these problems would always exist. Corruption and wealth disparity is not a problem that could be solved overnight, especially for a huge country like China. Whatever the people want to protest is indeed up to them, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences. If they want to protest against their own government, then they must be prepared to face their own law enforcement troops -- it's the same in every country. However, there is no international law that states a country should solve its own problems first before protests could be lodged against its neighbours.
This topic brings to mind a historical figure -- Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. If Chinese historical texts were to be believed, the Japanese wouldn't have overrun so much land and spilt so much blood if he didn't insist the internal problems within China, namely the Communists, be purged first before his troops could be divided to deal with the Japanese invaders. If there is anything to be learned from history, perhaps the first lesson is not to share his sentiments.
Flames are indeed uncontrollable, so it is best to put them out first before they grow too big, especially if they are started by the neighbour. -
we can tell the truth. but protesting is useless and does not help the situation. the japanese govt can lie all they want. but with internet and so many of their people travelling and coming into contact with foreigners do you think the japanese citizens dont know the truth.Originally posted by Tuatau:True, what the Japanese government want to do with their own people is none of the business for foreigners. However, when they alter history textbooks, teach their young history distorted to suit their political purposes, and these young grow up to be the next generations of Japan leaders, it becomes our concern.
In short, when their past has possible effects on our future, it is no longer an internal affair. -
if you are a singaporean we can start another thread to debate on our govt. let's not digress.Originally posted by vito_corleone:i never said that. what i stand for is for the entire chinese race, not mainland china.and ask yourself, does singapore treat you like its own? you're more like a peasant that the aristocratic government can manipulate to achieve their goals.
so i guess this is the main reason for our opposing view. we are both chinese by race. singaporean by nationality.
i see myself as a singaporean then chinese. i am a singaporean chinese. but you are a chinese singaporean. your loyalty lies with your race. -
Originally posted by dragg:
Yes, people outside Japan could most certainly tell the truth, but who would the Japanese rather believe? Their own people or foreigners? Moreover, the political apathy of Japanese youth is well-known. Even with access to the Internet and to friends made overseas, would they even bother to verify the truth of their textbooks with alternative sources? The only concern they'd probably have is how they could cram everything into their heads before exams.
we can tell the truth. but protesting is useless and does not help the situation. the japanese govt can lie all they want. but with internet and so many of their people travelling and coming into contact with foreigners do you think the japanese citizens dont know the truth.
All right, the above may be speculative, but one thing is for certain -- it is considered bad form and offensive to bring up the topic on past atrocities of the Japanese army when you are engaging in a normal conversation with a Japanese. Don't think many Singaporeans would want to do that with a Japanese superior or colleague or friend without good reason. Most wouldn't care anyway.
Throughout history, protests whether directed internally or externally, have seldom worked, especially if they are calls for foreign countries to carry out specific actions. Many protestors know that as well, but the point is usually not on achieving their goals. If protests against a perceived foreign threat could bring about the united will of a country, then in terms of national solidarity it might not be a bad thing after all. And let's face it: the Chinese have not been exactly what we'd call a very united people.
Similarly, this time amidst the angry demands for Japan to officially apologise and to recall the distorted textbooks there is a single voice. One single voice of confidence calling for the Chinese government to reject Kofi Annan's recommendation and to veto Japan's bid in the U.N. Security Council.
And it just might work. -
Same here.Singaporean first, Chinese second.Our national interests come before that of the PRC.I will fire on a fellow Chinese if he attacks me in war.Can others do so?I believe they can.Originally posted by dragg:if you are a singaporean we can start another thread to debate on our govt. let's not digress.
so i guess this is the main reason for our opposing view. we are both chinese by race. singaporean by nationality.
i see myself as a singaporean then chinese. i am a singaporean chinese. but you are a chinese singaporean. your loyalty lies with your race. -
Problem being..who'd you rather have in the Security Council as the second Asian rep?India?Korea?Originally posted by Tuatau:Yes, people outside Japan could most certainly tell the truth, but who would the Japanese rather believe? Their own people or foreigners? Moreover, the political apathy of Japanese youth is well-known. Even with access to the Internet and to friends made overseas, would they even bother to verify the truth of their textbooks with alternative sources? The only concern they'd probably have is how they could cram everything into their heads before exams.
All right, the above may be speculative, but one thing is for certain -- it is considered bad form and offensive to bring up the topic on past atrocities of the Japanese army when you are engaging in a normal conversation with a Japanese. Don't think many Singaporeans would want to do that with a Japanese superior or colleague or friend without good reason. Most wouldn't care anyway.
Throughout history, protests whether directed internally or externally, have seldom worked, especially if they are calls for foreign countries to carry out specific actions. Many protestors know that as well, but the point is usually not on achieving their goals. If protests against a perceived foreign threat could bring about the united will of a country, then in terms of national solidarity it might not be a bad thing after all. And let's face it: the Chinese have not been exactly what we'd call a very united people.
Similarly, this time amidst the angry demands for Japan to officially apologise and to recall the distorted textbooks there is a single voice. One single voice of confidence calling for the Chinese government to reject Kofi Annan's recommendation and to veto Japan's bid in the U.N. Security Council.
And it just might work.
Can the Chinese accept a condition that Japan apologize once and for all for WW2 in front of the General Assembly, then proceed to take up their seat at the Counci?I hope so.That would seem like the best solution for all.We need a strong nation in terms of military and humanitarian aid ability on the Council too. -
Who shall we support?
Neo-Imperialistic and unapologetic Japan or Communist and corrupt China? -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Wish I had the answer to that myself, nobody can speak for 1.2 billion people. If the Japanese government would sincerely make an official apology for their aggression against other countries in World War II, then maybe things might take a different turn. Given how things currently stand between Japan and the rest of East Asia, I doubt the Japanese government would soften their right-wing policies.
Problem being..who'd you rather have in the Security Council as the second Asian rep?India?Korea?
Can the Chinese accept a condition that Japan apologize once and for all for WW2 in front of the General Assembly, then proceed to take up their seat at the Counci?I hope so.That would seem like the best solution for all.We need a strong nation in terms of military and humanitarian aid ability on the Council too.
We do need strong "big brother" nations to be on the Council, but do we really need another Asian member? It is hard to say if Japan would make a good "big brother". My guess is many Asian countries would be watching their backs like crazy if a "big brother" like Japan started expanding on its military prowess.
Germany has done it twice, who can say Japan wouldn't do it again? -
I would be fine with India.But they are not very rich and have some problems within too.
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Originally posted by dragg:
Once a national ideology is deeply ingrained in an entire generation, it becomes like a religion. (This is what the Communists used to their advantage during the Cultural Revolution in China.) And such ideological conflicts between nations usually result in political confrontations.
but with internet and so many of their people travelling and coming into contact with foreigners do you think the japanese citizens dont know the truth.
Once again, it's all speculative but why leave things to chance and hope for the best if we could help it? It could jolly well work the other way too. If Japan should achieve a political superpower status the same as the U.S., how do we not know if the Japanese wouldn't come to us and try to convince us of their version of the truth? -
The Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao had stated the conditions today in Dehli.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Can the Chinese accept a condition that Japan apologize once and for all for WW2 in front of the General Assembly, then proceed to take up their seat at the Counci?I hope so.That would seem like the best solution for all.
imo Japan won't give a damn as long as Uncle Sam is giving their tacit support.
Beijing knows this well. FYI, this isn't the 1st time Japan had its eyes on the Council and its current military expenditure is 3rd largest after US And UK.
LKY once said giving Japan to rearm is as good as giving a chocolate with whiskey ingredient to a alcoholic.
I think is more of a warning than a metaphor. -
We are Chinese Singaporean, Chinese our ethnicity and Singaporean our nationality. I fight for singapore as a singaporean.Originally posted by dragg:if you are a singaporean we can start another thread to debate on our govt. let's not digress.
so i guess this is the main reason for our opposing view. we are both chinese by race. singaporean by nationality.
i see myself as a singaporean then chinese. i am a singaporean chinese. but you are a chinese singaporean. your loyalty lies with your race.
I am looking at this issue from a Singaporean point of view. Did Japan invaded singapore? did they slaughtered singaporean? were they justified in doing all that as their new text books say? I am not posting an approving or opposing view for the sake of an academic debate.
I am glad people in China and Korea are protesting, and today in LHZB even the Chinese Malaysians are protesting!! otherwise, who are telling the japanese what they are doing is wrong? -
America is the final victor against the Japs and dropped 2 atomic bombs to shut them up for good.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:I am most surprised, Japan did invade Malaysia,Singapore and Pearl Harbor,
as well , but i can tell that there have been very little "noise and disruption"
compared to protests and demonstrations..
In Singapore,We are taught about what happened, in America, they also knew of the pearl harbor attacks, but why does it seems that whenever any matters arose with rgds to Japan's WWII history ..
The two countries will react the most violently towards it??
Here in $ingapore, $$ talks. The spineless gahmen will not make any noise and tolerate any whimper lest the Japs withdraw their business interests further. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
For such a populous country like China, there are bound to be riots here and there and in some cases, deaths are unavoidable. I am not condoning them. Let's take a look at US and India. The former is known as the world's no. 1 democracy and the latter is known as the world's largest democracy. Yet these kind of things can happen in US and India too!! During the Vietnam War, american soldiers shot dead many students protesting the war. This kind of thing can also happen in the world's no.1 democracy. Even until now, exploitation of Native Americans and other minorities in the US still very common. Read here:
Precisely.Blood is indeed thicker than water, so if the PRC fellas never even realised that there are worse perps out there in their own nation.Take a moment and think,
On the very same day of the Anti-Japanese riots in China, a protest in the south by a few thousand villagers was suppressed violently resulting in the deaths of two elderly women.What's up with your claim that they have the freedom to riot?It's all a staged and crafted act for the world to see.That's the problem with many people today, they can't look beyond economic ideals and see the PRC for her own ruthless nature which is still around.
Quoted from Reuters ..
[b]BEIJING (Reuters) - Thousands of villagers rioted in eastern China injuring dozens of police after two of about 200 elderly women protesting against factory pollution died during efforts to disperse them, residents and officials said on Monday.
The rioting in the wealthy coastal province of Zhejiang on Sunday followed violent anti-Japanese protests in China's capital Beijing and the southern cities of Guangzhou and Shenzhen over the weekend.
It was the latest in a string of outbreaks of rural violence as the world's most populous nation struggles with disgruntlement over a widening wealth gap and widespread corruption.
More than 50 police were injured and rushed to hospital, with five listed in critical condition, a doctor told Reuters. About four residents of the village of Huankantou, in Huangtianfan township, were injured.
Police tried to disperse about 200 elderly women, who had kept a 24-hour vigil at sheds and a roadblock outside an industrial park housing about 13 chemical factories for the last two weeks, villagers and local officials said by telephone.
Two of the women were killed, two villagers said. "They were run over by police cars," one said.
A source with knowledge of the rioting who asked not to be identified said the two had died during arrest. He did not elaborate.
Club-wielding villagers clashed with police in riot gear, overturned police cars and hurled rocks at policemen holed up in a local high school, the villagers and local officials said.
"Villagers knocked down the wall of the school and charged in," one villager surnamed Wang said.
Villagers also smashed the windows of about 50 buses which carried some 3,000 policemen, paramilitary police and security guards to the scene to try to disperse villagers, they said.
For all you people who so passionately believe that China is a much more free country these days, think again.The Politburo will still clamp down and suppress free will and choice.Look at the issue from the whole spectrum and don't micromanage it to make yourself feel good about it.
A China that is rational and values her own people is worthy of respect.I too wish that day will come, but now, they still have a very long way to go.Protesting against Japanese refusal to change their textbooks is one thing, realising that it will not have much impact on the Japanese youth is another thing altogether seeing as to how apathetic the latter are towards Japanese nationalism and politics.
Don't burn some flags and end up having your own house on fire.Flames are uncontrollable, we should not play with them.[/b]
http://www.hippy.com/php/article-203.html
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws22.htm
If u think China's human rights record is poor, then u should look at these:
http://www.indiatogether.org/peace/kashmir/articles/indhr.htm
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/AmericanStateTerrorism.html
Forummer Sgdiehard is indeed correct to say that there is more freedom and liberties in today's china. Take a look at this video clip of from BBC programme and u will see what I mean:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/4335687.stm
In fact nowadays more and more Japanese and americans see China as a good place and are migrating there in large numbers. Look here:
http://www.muninn.net/blog/archives/000229.html
Take a look at this blog of an american lady who prefers to live in China. She could have made more money working elsewhere but yet she still prefer china. What does this tells u about the current China?
http://www.speakingofchina.com/journal/archives/000112.html
Your impression of China is still stuck in the 1970s... -
For those who think that the Chinese government is trying to divert attention from its internal problems by fueling anti-Japanese sentiment, I don't think that's true. I am now living in China. China's doing remarkably well so much so that more and more people from all over the world see China as a great place and are emigrating to China in large numbers.
I personally think that it is the Japanese government who is trying to stir up nationalistic sentiments among its citizens in order to divert their attention from its ailing economy. By continuing to whitewash their altrocities, the Japanese government is trying to incite foreign countries to stage protests against them, this will anger the Japanese and help rally the people of Japan behind the ruling government. -
yes mao is not a great ruler, he did bring suffering to the pples.Originally posted by LazerLordz:And America killed more Japanese civilians than the Allied forces combined...so pray tell where is this line of argument heading?
Oh yes, do you remember the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution?Not to mention the Gang of Four?So who killed more Chinese?The Japanese invaders or the masters of China?And funny that these students are not protesting their masters' misdeeds in the past.I don't recall any Chinese leader ever apologising to his own people about how they ripped out the countryside trying to find the bourgeois and the middle class intellectuals.
I pity the PRC people today, same as always throughout the centuries, used as cannon fodder for the whim and fancy of the State.
but he had unite china n free her frm foriegn domination.
no one is perfect, pples make mistake
deng xiaoping did comment on mao, he say he got seven part rite n 3 part wrong. overall his contributions is more den his mistake. -
Originally posted by Blueray:
Thoughtful insight you have there regarding the political motives, and it's probably true.
For those who think that the Chinese government is trying to divert attention from its internal problems by fueling anti-Japanese sentiment, I don't think that's true. I am now living in China. China's doing remarkably well so much so that more and more people from all over the world see China as a great place and are emigrating to China in large numbers.
I personally think that it is the Japanese government who is trying to stir up nationalistic sentiments among its citizens in order to divert their attention from its ailing economy. By continuing to whitewash their altrocities, the Japanese government is trying to incite foreign countries to stage protests against them, this will anger the Japanese and help rally the people of Japan behind the ruling government.
Will the Japanese people including their apathetic youths rally behind the ruling government in times like these? To their credit, so far they've generally been keeping an embarrassed silence. Only the right-wing government has been making noise and demanding compensation. -
Just think about it, if one day your relatives or parents got killed by Japanese, and 30 years later, The Japanese come back and say "I never kill your relatives and I will appreciate what I have done to you"
what do you think of it? -
Heh, I'd rather they remain politically apathetic..and just concentrate on consumerism.Originally posted by Tuatau:Thoughtful insight you have there regarding the political motives, and it's probably true.
Will the Japanese people including their apathetic youths rally behind the ruling government in times like these? To their credit, so far they've generally been keeping an embarrassed silence. Only the right-wing government has been making noise and demanding compensation.
If you notice, most governments around the world seem pretty outof touch to their people, sort of an international ruling elite if you must..now is the era of the Corporation.And the Garden is dying.. -
to put it simply the protest is just politics.
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What is happening are all stirred up by Japan's actions.
China had done no wrong.
I certainly do not think the chinese are over-reacting due to nationlism
or political reaons. Infact, I feel they had been too patient with Japan.