Calling all Mainland Chinese...
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Going by what you all said, i think that young children , especially when their grandfather's is a molester/rapist...they should be tortured and hated upon!
Don't you think its fair as well?
Do you think its fair for you all to beat up those japanese grandchildren whose grandfather are responsible for the crime??
Imagine if your grandfather molested or raped someone 60 years ago...
then someone beaten up your dad,or your son..for something which he had done no wrong happened 60 years ago..
Do you all think it's right? What if your own grandfather stole something...
and today you get beaten up for it?
Wake up !!!!
Stop hating the japanese, but try to love yourself...Hatred and violence has no end.. -
Sigh... you are right in that hate does beget hate, and two wrongs do not one right make. However, let's try to understand the situations by looking at the facts first. The Japanese -- at least those in the government -- are covering up the fact that their grandfathers in the army had raped and killed so many Chinese and Koreans' parents or grandparents during World War II. To add insult to injury, the Japanese are teaching their children and grandchildren and future generations that their forefathers in the army had been war heroes and had liberated many countries in Asia from European and American colonial masters.
All the protests and demonstrations may be politically-motivated, but the insult to ancestors is all very personal and could be very intensely emotional, which probably explains why some of the protests have descended into mindless rampages of violence. Let's use an analogy to your example below:Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:
Imagine if your grandmother was raped by many people's grandfathers 50 years ago. Then these many people taught their grandsons and granddaughters that your grandmother was not raped by their grandfathers because she was in fact bestowed the honour to serve as a willing volunteer in their grandfathers' army at that time. Are you going to believe them and congratulate yourself that you are so lucky to share grandfathers with them? Or are you going to believe your grandmother and give those lying bastards a piece of your mind instead?
Imagine if your grandfather molested or raped someone 60 years ago...
then someone beaten up your dad,or your son..for something which he had done no wrong happened 60 years ago..
How could the Chinese and Koreans take this grievous insult lying down?
To seek revenge may be wrong, but to seek redress, especially in the form of admission to someone's past guilt, is not.
Now with some inkling the reasons behind their anger, let's examine why the Chinese and Koreans are choosing this time to flare up again. It has been 50 years since the war ended. The Chinese and Koreans have been sharing peace, albeit uneasy, with the Japanese and the three countries have re-established mutual diplomatic and trade cooperative relations since then. So why the raking up of old debts now?
Because this time, as in the past when the old hatreds are just starting to fade, the Japanese have once again tested the patience of the neighbours by implementing insensitive policies unilaterally without any apparent regard or respect for the neighbours.
Because this time, the Japanese have sought leadership in the region when they have not the courage as befitting a leader to admit their past guilt. -
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You are missing the point.!!!Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Going by what you all said, i think that young children , especially when their grandfather's is a molester/rapist...they should be tortured and hated upon!
Don't you think its fair as well?
Do you think its fair for you all to beat up those japanese grandchildren whose grandfather are responsible for the crime??
Imagine if your grandfather molested or raped someone 60 years ago...
then someone beaten up your dad,or your son..for something which he had done no wrong happened 60 years ago..
Do you all think it's right? What if your own grandfather stole something...
and today you get beaten up for it?
Wake up !!!!
Stop hating the japanese, but try to love yourself...Hatred and violence has no end..
First, the thread should read "calling all Chinese and Koreans....", for it is not only the mainland chinese but Chinese in general and the Koreans, north and south who are against the Japanese now.
Secondly, adding to what tuatau had written, please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responses_of_Germany_and_Japan_to_World_War_II_crimes
to gain better understanding of the situation by comparing Germany and Japan.
"Germany's response to its war crimes has been largely lauded by the former Allies. The Government of the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany until 1989) has offered official apologies for the role of Germany in the Holocaust. Additionally, German leaders have continuously expressed repentance, most notably when former Chancellor Willy Brandt fell on his knees in front of a Holocaust memorial in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1970. Germany has also paid extensive reparations, including nearly $70 billion to the state of Israel. It has given $15 billion to Holocaust survivors and will continue to compensate them until 2015. Additionally, the government of Germany coordinated an effort to reach a settlement with German companies that had used slave labor during the war; the companies will pay $1.7 billion to victims. Germany also established a National Holocaust Memorial Museum in Berlin for looted property.
What has the japanese done? "Japanese officials have offered official and personal apologies or "regret" for the aggressive and bloody war it unleashed in Asia and the Pacific. Unlike Germany or Italy, where there is overwhelming national concensus, Japan has not come to a single conclusion actions of its military during and leading up to the war. Instead, the debate still brews, often among members of its ruling Liberal Democratic Party. Conservative, pro-nationalist members have thus far prevailed in this debate and control textbooks though they are denounced by a vocal minority of more liberal thinkers, intellectuals and teachers. In recent years, Prime Minister Koizumi has re-ignited the domestic and international controversy by paid homage to Yasukuni Shrine.
Indeed, hatred and violence have no ends, human correct our past mistakes so that civilization can move on. Respecting war criminals, glorifying acrocities and whitewashing historical facts is not part of civilization.
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Is any Japanese prime minister prepared to do this to those who killed by the japanese during WW2 ??
This is the reason why Germany is well respected in the internation society. Is japan prepared to learn? -
SMAPLionHeart, Wake UP!!!!
We Chinese (not only those from mainland China) or anyone who respect history should condemn those Japanese "grand children" for covering, altering the truth. It is what those "grand children" did wrong at this very moment that make us angry, not only their grand parent who doing something inhuman some 60 years ago. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Oh yes, Koizumi did kneel all right. At Yasukuni Shrine.
Is any Japanese prime minister prepared to do this to those who killed by the japanese during WW2 ??
This is the reason why Germany is well respected in the internation society. Is japan prepared to learn? -
Excellent replies Tuatau, couldn't have said it better. There's an element of truth in each one of our views but there are reasons why things happen, only if we dig deeper ...
Just to add ... the Japanese were protected to some extents by the Americans since WW2 and hiding behind their enemy turned ally, they've found strength to deny their pasts. Why? Because Americans fear the might of communist China more so than it has any interest in redressing the wrong doings inflicted upon the Chinese ...
Even in Singapore, something like 50,000 Chinese men were slaughtered and many raped as well.
There is heresay that the Japs may have compensated nations it victimised in the past but cannot be verified simply because the Japs simply refuse to own up. -
originally posted by snowleopard
There is heresay that the Japs may have compensated nations it victimised in the past but cannot be verified simply because the Japs simply refuse to own up.
IIRC, the war memorial (next to the padang) was built using compensation funds from the japanese. Part of the war compensation was also given in a fleet of the first air-conditioned buses to operate in Spore. LKY accepted japanese war compensation and economic aid in the days shortly after independence. That was in the 1960s.........just shows my age.
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To condemn is 1 thing, but to resort to violence in order to get a point across is another. It will do neither side good by resorting to violence. Japan is wrong for the things she did in WW2, but so is China for allowing violence to escalate during the recent protests. Its a problem which both govt should talk it out in a civilised manner and maybe through a neutral third country. China by allowing violence in these protest is doing more harm to the country then she realised. Imagine if these protests and violence are allowed to continue, this is going to scare away most investors and at the end of the day spell trouble for an already overheated economy.Originally posted by burntan:SMAPLionHeart, Wake UP!!!!
We Chinese (not only those from mainland China) or anyone who respect history should condemn those Japanese "grand children" for covering, altering the truth. It is what those "grand children" did wrong at this very moment that make us angry, not only their grand parent who doing something inhuman some 60 years ago. -
I didn't know that the China govt. allowing violence in recent protests. Where did you get this info? If so, what are those China police doing there? Protesting?Originally posted by z25x:To condemn is 1 thing, but to resort to violence in order to get a point across is another. It will do neither side good by resorting to violence. Japan is wrong for the things she did in WW2, but so is China for allowing violence to escalate during the recent protests. Its a problem which both govt should talk it out in a civilised manner and maybe through a neutral third country. China by allowing violence in these protest is doing more harm to the country then she realised. Imagine if these protests and violence are allowed to continue, this is going to scare away most investors and at the end of the day spell trouble for an already overheated economy. -
Originally posted by suntze:
Hm.. If you are referring to the Civilian War Memorial, the plaque there reads:
IIRC, the war memorial (next to the padang) was built using compensation funds from the japanese. Part of the war compensation was also given in a fleet of the first air-conditioned buses to operate in Spore. LKY accepted japanese war compensation and economic aid in the days shortly after independence. That was in the 1960s.........just shows my age.
"This Memorial was erected by the people of Singapore through the effects of the Chinese Chamber of Commerce and the assistance of the Government from funds donated by the Government and the people of Singapore. It was unveiled on February 15, 1967, by the Prime Minister."
Nowhere was the Japanese reparation funds mentioned. Is there anywhere we could verify the claim of the Japanese contributions? -
Originally posted by burntan:
The chinese government tacitly "allowed" violence to be carried out by not ordering the policemen to clamp down on these violent protestors. It can be clearly seen from the news from sources (such as BBC, reuters etc) that the policemen are idling around and not doing anything to stop the stoning and overturning of vehicles.
I didn't know that the China govt. [b]allowing violence in recent protests. Where did you get this info? If so, what are those China police doing there? Protesting?[/b]
What a far cry from the show of force during Zhao Ziyang funeral a couple of months back
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This is what was recorded about reparation to the people in Singapore, taken from the web:Originally posted by suntze:originally posted by snowleopard
IIRC, the war memorial (next to the padang) was built using compensation funds from the japanese. Part of the war compensation was also given in a fleet of the first air-conditioned buses to operate in Spore. LKY accepted japanese war compensation and economic aid in the days shortly after independence. That was in the 1960s.........just shows my age.
"Singapore is another place that felt the effects of Japanese Occupational rule. When the British colony fell on February 15, 1942, the Japanese military authorities attempted a systematic extermination on the Chinese population of Malaya and Singapore, on the context of eliminating undesirable "anti-Japanese" elements. Even though the Sook Ching Massacre did not have the scale nor organization of the Holocaust in Europe, postwar testimonies suggested that the Japanese Army exterminated about 25,000 to 50,000 Nanyang Chinese. After the massacre was called off on March 3, the Japanese military authrities ordered the Chinese Chamber of Commerce to raise $50 million of "tribute money". Singapore requested Japan many times for an apology and compensation, especially after Singapore became self-governing. However, the Japanese Foreign Ministry replied using the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951, in which the United Kingdom was a signatory state (and therefore, the colony of Singapore), has settled all compensation claims (even though Japan's compensations to the Singapore colonial government practically only dealth with British property damages). In October 1966, Japan finally agreed to pay "compensation" to Singapore, now an independent, sovereign nation. However, half of the compensation was paid in the form of a loan, and the "compensation package" did not come with an official apology. Until today (2004), Japan still has not officially apologized for the systematic extermination of ethnic Chinese in the Sook Ching Massacre."
Sad to know that a few aircon buses and some loan was enough to settle the lives of 25,000 to 50,000 Chinese in singapore. -
wt.f is wrong with you all..
its their business..whether they insulted or defamed my grandparents is none of my businesss... -
The japanese are changing the fact...if u really go and read more into the text book that they are changng now...u will find that lot of facts have be change.. COME on if u dun even admit your own mistake and try ways and means to cover up...i dun believe that u really learn from yours own mistake...
In the book they play down ..lot of act they have done...such as they do not even mention the use of "comfort woman" which is so well-known to even the generation now....in the textbook they call themself the Liberator as they help those asia country to be freed from they colonial master...
if u have learn history before...u should know that history is just not there for fun....history is for human to learn the mistake from the past and never to repeat again....
They should learn from germany...which do not try anything to cover up for the mistake they did...and even apologies for their mistake....
China and korea has suffer more from japan than anyone of the south east asia..country...even before world war 2 started..korean was already under japan rule..and china..has been fighting with them for years..So it understanding that they are anger by the changing of history book.. -
Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:
Are you serious?!
its their business..whether they insulted or defamed my grandparents is none of my businesss...
If you really think that way, then there's no much point in continuing the discussion. -
It is not our business either, what they did to your grandparents during WW2, and the implications for your parents and yourself.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:wt.f is wrong with you all..
its their business..whether they insulted or defamed my grandparents is none of my businesss...
We are here to make sure that the japanese do not distort the history, and be alert in case the ugly japanese imperial militarism rises its head again. If you want no parts in this, then what have the chinese and koreans demonstrations and violence got to do with you? -
Even if they change the dumb fact about themselves..we always know the truth..they can choose to run and hide..but its really none of our businessOriginally posted by sgdiehard:It is not our business either, what they did to your grandparents during WW2, and the implications for your parents and yourself.
We are here to make sure that the japanese do not distort the history, and be alert in case the ugly japanese imperial militarism rises its head again. If you want no parts in this, then what have the chinese and koreans demonstrations and violence got to do with you?
Its pathetic to see fellow yellow skinned people fighting against the japanese?
hello?
Demonstrations and violence for what? Life is so short..make use of the ample time of earth.. -
For the benefit of reader, this was taken during a visit to Warsaw Ghetto Memorial in 1970 by the late Chancellor of Germany, Willy Brandt. During WW2, this Nobel Prize winner was a wanted man by the Nazi.
Some history of this Nobel Prize winner.
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Willy_Brandt -
If your grandparents are hearing this, i'm sure they will be disgraced to have you as their grandson.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:wt.f is wrong with you all..
its their business..whether they insulted or defamed my grandparents is none of my businesss...
I'm guessing this kid here is worshipping those japs lah.... worshipping their anime, songs etc. That's why he's 'defending' them.
geeez
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Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Even if they change the dumb fact about themselves..we always know the truth..they can choose to run and hide..but its really none of our business
i don't know about you , but i don't consider myself a fellow yellow skinned person when associated with the japaneseOriginally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Its pathetic to see fellow yellow skinned people fighting against the japanese?
hello?
Demonstrations and violence for what? Life is so short..make use of the ample time of earth..
and you obviously don't understand the situation, you don't care about it, you feel that its none of your business, then why are you asking people to go the same way as you?
i personally feel that the demos are a waste of time and money, and there are surely better ways to protest, but thats just my way of thinking, i'm sure most of the protesters feel that its time well spent, and they're making ample use of their time -
I think we shouldnt be calling our forums mates here names.... lets be rational... it is obviously Someone OWN Someone an apology. Think of a similar case...
A good friend of yours has his ass kicked HARD the day before
and today he kicked in your ass HARD
and the next day he says "We are still good friend right... And I am NOT wrong in kicking your ass because people are kicking asses and you should be honoured that I kick your ass."
A bit vague but I hope you all get the idea...
Moral of the story ... Accept mistakes made and make it good... -
maybe we should close the thread and talk about something else. this discussion is really going nowhere.
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hello folks, i'm sure there's merit to each and everyone's opinions here. we may not agwee with one another but we need not degenerate into the ugliness that was the motivation behind this topic.
anyway, just a thought. the US has systematically eliminated all major threats to its 'dominance' for as long as anybody can remember. i wouldn't be surprised if 20 years later we have a disclosure from CIA about US influence in the disintegration of USSR.
the single greatest threat to the US in the near future would be china. Tian An Men failed. Dalai Lama failed. how to deal with china? US needs more allies in the security council. while the british can always be counted upon being brothers, the french has shown that it can turn its back if it wants to and russians are former nemesis. time to bring on japan.
the chinese have never forgotten the war attrocities but have always kept them bottled up for the sake of japanese investments. but today, china can 'better afford' to raise its voice, and has more reasons to do so especially when you add up issues like taiwan, crude oil reserves on east china sea islands, russian oil pipeline and now security council ... that's pushing tolerance limits a bit too far isn't it?
as long as the US is behind japan, the japs will continue to do as they please. the chinese as yet cannot deal with the combined might of US and japan. it recently became buddies with india again so with its back covered, the warheads can now point east.
speculations only ...