Sino japanese discussion thread.
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skyline63
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20 April 2005 · 01:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for skyline63 Edit Message Reply with Quote
Japan foreign minister leaves China after failing to get apology
Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura ended a two-day visit to China during which he failed to get an apology for widespread anti-Japanese protests.
"Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura concluded his visit to China and left here Tuesday morning," the Xinhua news agency reported.
China said Monday its ties with Japan were at a 30-year low and repeated it would not apologise for the series of protests after a second day of talks between Machimura and Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing.
Li had told Machimura that China hoped Japan would take "concrete actions" to face up to its history of aggression in China to improve bilateral relations.
Machimura retorted by expressing "deep regret" over the rallies, which caused damage to Japanese diplomatic missions, restaurants and businesses in major Chinese cities.
Ties between East Asia's two most powerful nations have rapidly approached a nadir after Japan approved a nationalist textbook that glossed over wartime atrocities.
They have been further ruffled by Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.
Amid the tension a Japanese court Tuesday rejected a compensation lawsuit filed by 10 Chinese survivors of Japanese atrocities including the 1937 Nanjing massacre.
The decision by the Tokyo High Court is consistent with repeated rulings in Japan, which says any compensation for World War II crimes is a bilateral issue between countries rather than a case an individual can bring before the courts.
The Tokyo High Court refused to hear an appeal by the women, whose case had already been dismissed by a district court. They can still go to the Supreme Court.
Plaintiffs left the courtroom holding a banner that read, "Unjust verdict."
The plaintiffs had sought 100 million yen (930,000 dollars) for atrocities including the Nanjing massacre, bombings by Japanese forces and the "Unit 731" that performed medical experiments on humans.
Meanwhile Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi on Tuesday defended his visits to a Tokyo war shrine that have infuriated China and called for the two countries to understand each other's views amid a heated row.
Since taking office in 2001, Koizumi has made four pilgrimages to the Yasukuni shrine, which honors 2.5 million Japanese war dead including seven World War II leaders hanged for war crimes.
Asked if his visits to the Shinto sanctuary were a reason for the massive anti-Japanese protests this month in China, Koizumi said: "I don't think so."
"I have been visiting in order to pledge not to have war and to mourn the war dead," Koizumi told reporters.
"Respective countries have respective histories and traditions and have different opinions," Koizumi said. "It is necessary to deepen mutual understanding."
Chinese State Councillor Tang Jiaxuan, a former foreign minister, has said Japanese leaders' visits to the Yasukuni shrine were at the heart of bilateral problems.
Koizumi has visited the shrine annually since taking office, each time prompting protests by China and South Korea, which were victims of Japanese aggression.
Koizumi has not yet gone this year or said clearly if he will. His last pilgrimage was on January 1, 2004.
skyline63
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20 April 2005 · 01:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for skyline63 Edit Message Reply with Quote
Not happy. Don't sell your product to China loh. Go and sell to the rest of the world and see how much profit you lost ! How are you going to deal with the rising unemployment in Japan ! Why not ? It's a good idea. If you Jap want to stop import your product. China can survive for so many years without import market. Who scare you ? JAP ?
Rising star ? SHAME yourself ? KIDDING ME ! IT's HONOR TO HATE JAPANESE ! And a greatest honor in the world.
Trying to change your history books ? Go loh ! Try loh ! War you want also can.
BLOODLY JAP ! CUT your head and chop the babies into half when throwing in the air just like what you did in world war 2 ! And not just it. OPIUM WAR AS WELL !
You are only be a laughing stock of the world when you think what is over is over. And they can change their history books anyhow.
If Japan did not lose. I bet the Malays and INDIANS in Malaysia and Indonesia will be second-class citizen to the Japanese loh ! Are you willing to give your land to the JAPANESE NOW ? Why not right ? Since you love them so much ? What is over is over right ? Give them now loh.
LazerLordz
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20 April 2005 · 02:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LazerLordz Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by skyline63:
Not happy. Don't sell your product to China loh. Go and sell to the rest of the world and see how much profit you lost ! How are you going to deal with the rising unemployment in Japan ! Why not ? It's a good idea. If you Jap want to stop import your product. China can survive for so many years without import market. Who scare you ? JAP ?
Rising star ? SHAME yourself ? KIDDING ME ! IT's HONOR TO HATE JAPANESE ! And a greatest honor in the world.
Trying to change your history books ? Go loh ! Try loh ! War you want also can.
BLOODLY JAP ! CUT your head and chop the babies into half when throwing in the air just like what you did in world war 2 ! And not just it. OPIUM WAR AS WELL !
You are only be a laughing stock of the world when you think what is over is over. And they can change their history books anyhow.
If Japan did not lose. I bet the Malays and INDIANS in Malaysia and Indonesia will be second-class citizen to the Japanese loh ! Are you willing to give your land to the JAPANESE NOW ? Why not right ? Since you love them so much ? What is over is over right ? Give them now loh.
STFU and cool down.Hothead behavior makes you look worse than the Japs.
A few tiny scheming Darth Potatoes are knocking on my door, demanding that I stop eating french fries and screwing up the Force.
oxford mushroom
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20 April 2005 · 03:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for oxford mushroom Edit Message Reply with Quote
China has made her point. Now it is time to calm her population down. Japan will never get a seat in the UN among the permanent five unless China allows her. China has a veto vote she can use anytime.
It is in China's interest to grow stronger economically, militarily and politically, whilst not arousing too much suspicion or fear from the Americans or the Japanese. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, they made the mistake of waking up the sleeping giant. China is the giant that is just arousing from her sleep. It is in her interest to avoid major conflicts before she becomes fully ready to take on the world.
skyline63
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20 April 2005 · 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skyline63 Edit Message Reply with Quote
Then you kneel down to the JAP loh. Since you love them so much !
sgdiehard
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20 April 2005 · 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sgdiehard Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by skyline63:
Then you kneel down to the JAP loh. Since you love them so much !
Hello, there is really no need for statement like that. Argue on facts and avoid emotional diarrhea, or you loose your credibility of your argument.
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pkchukiss
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20 April 2005 · 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pkchukiss Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by skyline63:
Then you kneel down to the JAP loh. Since you love them so much !
Calm down. The last thing we need is anger clouding the current situation. Already, enraged chinese protesters have resorted to physical show of force through stone pelting, material boycotts of Japanese products to make their point. I believe that a blockade of their front gate is a more effective and stronger statement: not only does it convey a picture of self-control despite great dissatisfaction, it also make it even easier to emphasis their points.
For me, the current status quo should not stay: they have obscured their own World War II history to such an extent that come a decade or two, the young Japanese would look at us in incredulity whenever we mention Japan's unapologetic stand.
We need to assert our rights to a public apology, not only to China and South Korea, but to all the other nations Japan has transgressed during its wartime aggression: to do justice to all the suffering our grandparents (parents to some of us) have suffered, we must demand that the Japanese education ministry rewrite their history books to adhere to facts. This is something I feel isn't hard achieve, and is the right thing to do. After all, History is about facts, not some nationalistic propaganda to whitewash the past.
[This message was edited by pkchukiss on 2005-04-20 17:48:02.]
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skyline63
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23 April 2005 · 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skyline63 Edit Message Reply with Quote
People teach their children. World war 2 is a honor. And they should start a new war. And do you think things is the same ?
Educated to the world war 2 ? hahahh!!!!!!!! Singapore LKY talk leh ! They know more Chinese history then LKY who study in ENGLAND ONE LEH !
I tell you Chinese in China hate Singaporean ! And Hate LKY ! Say he is a double head snake. And every Singaporean is that way. That is the way.
LazerLordz
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23 April 2005 · 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LazerLordz Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by skyline63:
People teach their children. World war 2 is a honor. And they should start a new war. And do you think things is the same ?
Educated to the world war 2 ? hahahh!!!!!!!! Singapore LKY talk leh ! They know more Chinese history then LKY who study in ENGLAND ONE LEH !
I tell you Chinese in China hate Singaporean ! And Hate LKY ! Say he is a double head snake. And every Singaporean is that way. That is the way.
If they choose to hate us, so be it.We are not PRC anyway, and if they think we should behave and think like them, then they are just deluded.
I can sympathise with their anti-Japanese protests but to assume that we must think like them is just pure arrogance.Don't get me wrong, if it was China who was rampaging down S.E.A, I would not hold back from shooting them just because they are Chinese.
There is a limit to what blood ties can do.I am a Singaporean, not a PRC guy.Though I dislike LKY's style, it doesn't mean we will sympathise with their attitudes.
A few tiny scheming Darth Potatoes are knocking on my door, demanding that I stop eating french fries and screwing up the Force.
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mad.obsessionz
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23 April 2005 · 01:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mad.obsessionz Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
China has made her point. Now it is time to calm her population down. Japan will never get a seat in the UN among the permanent five unless China allows her. China has a veto vote she can use anytime.
It is in China's interest to grow stronger economically, militarily and politically, whilst not arousing too much suspicion or fear from the Americans or the Japanese. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbour, they made the mistake of waking up the sleeping giant. China is the giant that is just arousing from her sleep. It is in her interest to avoid major conflicts before she becomes fully ready to take on the world.
eh but think about it.... if jap didn't attack pearl harbour, they wouldn't get thier ass whacked... and if that didn't happen, the bloody americans wont loan them a single cent neverthelest teach them mass production techinque... now thier like the kings of mass presicion production.... only downside is its exp.... china can copy any one for less than half the price.... thier labours so cheap if it goes any lower, it'll be considered slave labour.... but have you guys seen recent social studies textbooks?? moe is askin us to follow how morden jap lives thier lives... they one us to care for the elderly like how they do and want us to take thier post-war workin attitude for exaple.... so we cant say thier all bad... i mean there must be sth good in everything bad....
deathscythe99
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23 April 2005 · 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for deathscythe99 Edit Message Reply with Quote
Rolling Eyes
I think it's already morally wrong to do pelting and burning of other countries' flags and defacing govt property -shrugz-
Some person trying to rant when he cant show action? Talk only, more action pls Mr. Green
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suGaR
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23 April 2005 · 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for suGaR Edit Message Reply with Quote
Since Jap already said sorry, why China just cant forget everything!
Isit still bcuz of pride?
Y things always turn out to be nasty bcuz of China?
Do u noe why their ppl on their streets demonstratin?
They are brought up this way.
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LazerLordz
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23 April 2005 · 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LazerLordz Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by suGaR:
Since Jap already said sorry, why China just cant forget everything!
Isit still bcuz of pride?
Y things always turn out to be nasty bcuz of China?
Do u noe why their ppl on their streets demonstratin?
They are brought up this way.
They've been raised this way by Mao's cronies and descendants.
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sgdiehard
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23 April 2005 · 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sgdiehard Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by skyline63:
People teach their children. World war 2 is a honor. And they should start a new war. And do you think things is the same ?
Educated to the world war 2 ? hahahh!!!!!!!! Singapore LKY talk leh ! They know more Chinese history then LKY who study in ENGLAND ONE LEH !
I tell you Chinese in China hate Singaporean ! And Hate LKY ! Say he is a double head snake. And every Singaporean is that way. That is the way.
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Your &*#&s is making people vomitting rubbish.
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dragg
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23 April 2005 · 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dragg Edit Message Reply with Quote
read today's straits times. LKY share some insights.
To each its own way
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NuLife
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23 April 2005 · 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NuLife Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by dragg:
read today's straits times. LKY share some insights.
what sporeans need is their own mind.
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kheldorin
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22 April 2005 · 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kheldorin Edit Message Reply with Quote
Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has expressed "deep remorse" over Japan's wartime aggression in Asia at the Asia-Africa summit in Jakarta.
I suspect that this apology is merely strategic as Japanese MPs recently
visited the War Memorial and the issue regarding the textbook was not
dealt with. The whole textbook thing was also probably a deception as
the textbooks were not widely adopted before and the Japanese government
knew that it will be the same this time round. However, it allowed the Japanese government to arouse Chinese nationalistic feelings. And the Chinese naively played along. It gave them the opportunity to label China a 'scary' country. China's refusal to apologize after the attack on the Japanese embassy allowed the Japanese to portray themselves as the victims and China as unreasonable and irrational. With the Prime Minister's apology, Japan gained the moral high ground. Japan is seen as the more reasonable, rational, co-operative and peaceful among the 2 countries. Furthermore, China's strong opposition to Japan's acceptance to the Security Council is seen as aggressive and allowing regional politics to interfere with an International system. This whole issue also caused a greater scrutiny of China's own human rights record.
This tactic is not new. The US has used it against a previous super-power, the Soviet Union, in the Cold War. They advertised themselves as the 'country of freedon' while the communist Soviet Union is condemned as repressive. And recently, they began to label countries as the "Axis of Evil" and some countries as allies to terrorists. It is apparent that Japan seeks to sway world opinion that China is a threat and steps must be taken to contain its growth, just like how the US did with the Soviet Union. China has not helped itself in this matter. It displayed what people think as a conduct unbecoming of a future superpower.
So, round 1 to Japan. Next move.
SilverPal
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22 April 2005 · 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SilverPal Edit Message Reply with Quote
Speaking as a singaporean, I guess as long as the big players are busy with each other, sg can quietly continue to play along and strengthen herself in terms of economic power and diplomatic standing without any negative interference.
Also, altho war is not profitable, verbal and diplomatic bickering can actually be profitable for the smaller countries.
As long as things do not escalate into a cold war or a full war, Sg will continue to thrive as friends of both countries.
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Blueray
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22 April 2005 · 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Blueray Edit Message Reply with Quote
The number of Chinese protesting against Japan is just a very very small drop of China's population. It certainly doesn't prove anything. Most Chinese have nothing against the Japanese. In fact there are more and more Japanese who see China as a great place to live in and are migrating to China in numbers. Here is the related article about Japanese migration to China:
http://www.muninn.net/blog/archives/000229.html
It has been 60 years since the war ended but even until today the Japanese government are still denying and glorifying their past mistakes. What's the reason behind this?
I think that the Japanese government is trying to stir up nationalistic sentiments among its citizens in order to divert their attention from its ailing economy. By continuing to whitewash their altrocities, the Japanese government is trying to incite foreign countries to stage protests against them, this will anger the Japanese and help rally the people of Japan behind the ruling government.
What's most disturbing is that in recent years in Japan itself, ethnic Chinese and Korean and their properties are frequently subjected to unprovoked death threats and attacks from Japanese nationalists. Look at these articles:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/23/content_325864.htm
http://210.145.168.243/pk/066th_issue/98102107.htm
http://www.imadr.org/imadr_jc/song_hesuk.html
What have the japanese government been teaching their younger generations anyway? Why do they have so much hatred towards Chinese and Koreans when China and Korea have never done anything ill towards Japan?
[This message was edited by Blueray on 2005-04-22 17:44:34.]
SilverPal
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22 April 2005 · 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SilverPal Edit Message Reply with Quote
Could it e a Jap superiority complex that causes them to hate and despise Koreans and Chinese?
Everyone has the right to be stupid, but you're abusing the privilege.
Blueray
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22 April 2005 · 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Blueray Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by SilverPal:
Could it e a Jap superiority complex that causes them to hate and despise Koreans and Chinese?
I would say this is a key factor. Another thing is that since the Japanese economic bubble burst in the early 1990s, their economy has shrunk for more than 10 consecutive years. The unemployment rate is still high and foreigners are seen as competitors who took away their jobs and hence more and more discrimination against foreigners.
suntze
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22 April 2005 · 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for suntze Edit Message Reply with Quote
The following is taken off the BBC web site but is not meant to inflame more feelings. Perhaps it'll serve to help understand the reason for the intense feelings. I've only been to Japan once for holiday and don't really know the Japanese ppl very much. The ppl I've met are generally polite but rather aloof; maybe it's in their culture.
Japan's decision to approve new school textbooks, criticised by some for glossing over the country's wartime record, have promoted demonstrations in several Chinese cities. But as William Horsley discovers the row between the two countries concerns the future as well as the past.
Prime Minister Koizumi's visits to the shrine were criticised by China
The most striking thing about the Yasukuni Shrine is its massive and forbidding black "torii" gate.
A distinctive symbol of the Shinto religion, a gaunt silhouette beneath which, on a bright spring day, I watched men and women of all ages streaming in to pay their respects to ancestors, or to admire the enchanting display of cherry blossoms on the tree-lined avenue.
Each family group would pause, shut their eyes and pray in front of the open-plan wooden building where the souls of two-and-a-half-million Japanese war dead are enshrined.
Those war dead include Hideki Tojo, Japan's wartime prime minister who was later hanged with a dozen other top leaders as a war criminal.
Japan's present leader, Junichiro Koizumi has made regular visits to Yasukuni Shrine in spite of furious complaints from China, South Korea and other neighbouring countries that in doing so he was condoning Japan's aggressive war in the 1930s and 1940s.
And now, the news from China is bad, very bad.
Demonstrations
Demonstrations over the text-books have extended to South Korea
Last weekend an angry crowd gathered in Beijing to throw stones at the Japanese embassy.
In other cities young people have attacked Japanese shops and businesses.
In Shanghai two Japanese students were badly beaten up in a restaurant.
Chinese leaders say Japan will not deserve a permanent seat on the UN Security Council until it faces up honestly to its wartime misdeeds.
An e-mail doing the rounds in China calls for a mass boycott of Japanese goods. "Send this on to other Chinese people", the message says, "and we won't need to go to war!"
History
This stream of invective against the Japanese is not new.
Some Asia watchers see it largely as a device by Chinese leaders to extract more Japanese aid or divert attention from their own failings.
It is alarmingly reminiscent of the age of the Communist Red Guards.
The Yasukuni Shrine remains a potent symbol of how the Japanese, intoxicated by fascism and coerced by military rule, once collectively lost their reason and were fed fantastic myths, of racial superiority and the Emperor's divinity
But on this trip to Japan I could not avoid the conclusion that a new mood of nationalism has also begun to take hold in this country which has been publicly devoted to peace and economic prosperity for so long.
One sign is the Japanese authorities' approval of several new school history textbooks written by known right-wing scholars.
One book which has angered the Chinese failed to make any assessment of the number of Chinese civilians killed in the infamous Rape of Nanjing.
The internationally accepted view is that hundreds of thousands died in an orgy of sexual violence and killing by Japanese troops.
And Japan's largest national newspaper, the Yomiuri Shimbun, in what I take to be blatant disregard for the known facts, has called on its readers to celebrate, because the new textbooks have cut out all mention of one of the greatest of all the humiliations inflicted by Imperial Japan on its neighbours: the use of large numbers of women in conquered Asian countries as sex slaves for the Japanese army.
It was right to set the record straight, I read, because the accusations "had been shown to be untrue".
Surely I thought modern Japan could not give in to the poison of such deceit and hypocrisy ever again.
The Yasukuni Shrine remains a potent symbol of how the Japanese, intoxicated by fascism and coerced by military rule, once collectively lost their reason and were fed fantastic myths, of racial superiority and the Emperor's divinity.
'Bitter dispute'
I had come to see the recently expanded Yasukuni museum of Japanese history.
For 100 years Japan has been number one in Asia. Now China, with 10 times Japan's population, is in a hurry to take over that role
I found that its 18 galleries of high-quality displays, maps and texts amount to a lavish and expensive re-write of the history of Japan's imperial age, to show the Japanese as innocent victims of a conspiracy by the Western colonial powers, to thwart Japan's ambition to lead East Asia and force Japan into war.
By this account annexing Korea, setting up a puppet regime in Manchukuo, the step by step takeover of China, each was done in self-defence, aiming only to bring peace.
As for Nanjing, I found no mention of Japanese soldiers killing civilians.
Instead, these words: "The Chinese were soundly defeated, suffering heavy casualties. Inside the city, residents were once again able to live their lives in peace."
However you look at it, that will not do as a record of what happened.
By chance I came across this testimony of a Japanese army veteran who was there.
"No matter how young or old, none of the women we rounded up could escape being raped. Each one was allocated to 15 or 20 soldiers for sexual intercourse and abuse."
Afterwards "we always stabbed them and killed them. Because dead bodies don't talk."
The bitter dispute now raging between Japan and China is both about setting the record straight and about a struggle for power.
For 100 years Japan has been number one in Asia.
Now China, with 10 times Japan's population, is in a hurry to take over that role.
And as with highly-geared racing cars sharing the same circuit, it is the moment of overtaking that brings the greatest risk of a crash.
From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Saturday 16 April, 2005 at 1130 BST on BBC Radio 4. Please check the programme schedules for World Service transmission times.
Tuatau
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22 April 2005 · 05:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuatau Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by kheldorin:
Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has expressed "deep remorse" over Japan's wartime aggression in Asia at the Asia-Africa summit in Jakarta.
I suspect that this apology is merely strategic as Japanese MPs recently
visited the War Memorial and the issue regarding the textbook was not
dealt with.
...
China has not helped itself in this matter. It displayed what people think as a conduct unbecoming of a future superpower.
So, round 1 to Japan. Next move.
Of course it is strategic. Koizumi is leveraging on international sympathies to pressurise China against vetoing its bid for the U.N. Security Council seat.
And it is certainly not new. Then-Prime Minister Murayama made a more sincere apology in August 1995 and was quickly replaced by Hashimoto four months later.
Action speaks louder than words.
Has China blundered this round? Let's not be too hasty to judge. From a political point of view, the Chinese government could be using protests over a history text to send a subtle message to Japan and the US that it will not condone the emergence of a powerful military rival in the region, especially one closely aligned with Washington.
Moreover, the Communist party has always embraced nationalism as its favoured means of ideological control. By tacitly condoning anti-Japanese demonstrations, the government gave China's increasingly-apathetic population an excuse to participate in something that looked like a united voice of solidarity and freedom of expression.
Furthermore, standing up to Japan's "rightists" also enhanced party leader Hu Jintao's stature, while justifying higher military spending.
China has not yet officially responded, but Hu could take a leaf from Chairman Mao Tse-tung and wave off the apology graciously during talks with Japan, "If not for Japan's aggression against China, the Chinese Communist party would not be in power today."
China may have displayed "what people think as a conduct unbecoming of a future superpower", but has the existing superpower been any better?
"WE SHALL PREVAIL."
- President George W. Bush
[This message was edited by Tuatau on 2005-04-22 17:11:04.]
Blueray
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22 April 2005 · 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Blueray Edit Message Reply with Quote
This kind of apologies are totally meaningless. They will go thru a cycle of half ass 'apologies' followed by actions that render those so called 'regrets' null and void.
Their leaders will still be visting the Yasukuni Shrine. In fact more than 160 of his lawmakers just did. They will still be denying and whitewashing their history.
Many lawsuits on war atrocities were rejected by Japan courts. They also denied that "comfort women" existed
It's very unlikely for this country to emulate the example of Germany.
[This message was edited by Blueray on 2005-04-22 18:24:55.]
kheldorin
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22 April 2005 · 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kheldorin Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by Tuatau:
China may have displayed "what people think as a conduct unbecoming of a future superpower", but has the existing superpower been any better?
"WE SHALL PREVAIL."
- President George W. Bush
Ah, but the existing superpower is a known factor while China is still unknown. That's why during these periods, countries are scrutinizing and judging China's foreign policies, deciding whether having China as a superpower would be best for the future. This is especially true for the Europeans countries as they are not part of Asia and may not benefit much or could be threatened by Asia's growth. The shift of power from the West to the East may also be uncomfortable to them as they are not as familiar with the culture. They probably prefer India as a superpower as India was a former colony and has retained a Western structure while China's structure is different. Europeans are also critical of China's past and its human rights record.
The global media is also still mostly controlled by US and Britain. They can still influence public opinion and portray China's moves in a harsher light that what it actually is. The Europeans are still pretty neutral so far. I wonder what Japan, US and Taiwan is going to do about that.
[This message was edited by kheldorin on 2005-04-22 20:31:39.]
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Tuatau
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22 April 2005 · 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tuatau Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by kheldorin:
The global media is also still mostly controlled by US and Britain. They can still influence public opinion and portray China's moves in a harsher light that what it actually is. The Europeans are still pretty neutral so far. I wonder what Japan, US and Taiwan is going to do about that.
True. A lot of Chinese people around the world are closely following the news to see how China is going to engage US and Japan in power play games. And they aren't just getting their news from the Western media. The 22 million signatures obtained around the world for the online petitions against Japan's U.N. Security Council permanent seat bid have proven the far reach of the Asian media as well.
Gun
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22 April 2005 · 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gun Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by kheldorin:
Ah, but the existing superpower is a known factor while China is still unknown. That's why during these periods, countries are scrutinizing and judging China's foreign policies, deciding whether having China as a superpower would be best for the future.
Historically, China had been a rather benign superpower. What the world, esp for Asia, need to keep their eyes on is possible return of Japanese militarism amounts its political estbmt, as highlighted by suntze on a report by a BBC Japan correspondence.
quote:The global media is also still mostly controlled by US and Britain. They can still influence public opinion and portray China's moves in a harsher light that what it actually is. The Europeans are still pretty neutral so far. I wonder what Japan, US and Taiwan is going to do about that.[/b]
Agreed with that. In fact, this BBC report mentioned earlier is a rarity in Western media on about how nationalism is taking hold in Tokyo
"Malaysians should accept any statement from their government as true and accurate and not give any credence to denials by others." - Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar, Oct'98
robertteh
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22 April 2005 · 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for robertteh Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by Gun:
Agreed with that. In fact, this BBC report mentioned earlier is a rarity in Western media on about how nationalism is taking hold in Tokyo
By looking at the whole political developments within Japan, it is very clear that Japan is re-militarising itself again in a big way. The world has to keep an eye on its ulterior motives in dealing with Japan. Other countries must form alliances in case Japan decides to ally with USA to control Asia.
Laughing Laughing Laughing
objectivestepsprocessing
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23 April 2005 · 03:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NuLife Edit Message Reply with Quote
Just wanna bring a few related things up:
-US asked japan to play stronger role asia regional securrty.
-Japan made a bid to ask for release its military sanction
or strengthening its defence force citing growing threat from china
(somehting like tat...)
-US wants to support India to become asia superpower
and offer to sell next generation military crafts to india.
.. this was followed by china approaching india to cooperate
and exchange industry expectise. something like tat...
All these moves were made by US and Japan all bcos
of their fear of China rising power.
One analysis even view the US strategy as analogous
to former president Nixon's strategy of forming allied forces
w France against rising power of germany (if i rembr correctly)
My personal sad view to these is that, they have labeled China
as dangerous even b4 it had done anything.
It seemed more dangerous as they are provoking China
rather than coorperating w them.
If theres any more new conflicts, it seemed to be started by US and Japan.
NuLife
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23 April 2005 · 03:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NuLife Edit Message Reply with Quote
I second kheldorin's view.
Its all part of Japan (and US) strategy to make the world think
that china is a dangerous nation. Its all a plot.
Then, perhaps it can get UN permission to regrow its military industry.
Another lucrative industry where it can display its engineering might,
which had been in denial for 60yrs.
And this will indirectly provide for economic growth and regional power,
esp w US cooperation,
in face of the growing pressure in power and economy from China.
NuLife
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23 April 2005 · 03:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NuLife Edit Message Reply with Quote
Wrt to Japan apology, it will mean nothing if its matched by its actions.
Gun
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23 April 2005 · 04:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gun Edit Message Reply with Quote
What one can learn from an unedited history textbook:
On 22 Apr 2005, Japanese PM Koizumi issued (another) "äpology" for Japanese WWII atrocities when over 160 of his MPs visited the Yasukuni shrine on the same day.
On 7 Dec 1941, Japanese ambassador in Washington had requested to meet US Secretary of State when over 360 Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbour in the same morning.
Actions speak Louder than words.
[This message was edited by Gun on 2005-04-23 04:20:59.]
"Malaysians should accept any statement from their government as true and accurate and not give any credence to denials by others." - Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar, Oct'98
sgdiehard
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23 April 2005 · 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sgdiehard Edit Message Reply with Quote
quote:Originally posted by robertteh:
By looking at the whole political developments within Japan, it is very clear that Japan is re-militarising itself again in a big way. The world has to keep an eye on its ulterior motives in dealing with Japan. Other countries must form alliances in case Japan decides to ally with USA to control Asia.
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Sigh..... I see the same thing.
sgdiehard
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NuLife
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23 April 2005 · 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NuLife Edit Message Reply with Quote
On LKY's reply today... heres my thoughts...
Not everything the old man said is correct.
Some of which are uncalled for.
Personally I do not think he knows China nor Asia enough.
It made him seemed like a puppet under the influence of west/US/Japan.
Even after the apology, the Korean politician downplay it.
Let alone China soon.
I really think LKY better talk less else Spore will become an outcast in asia.
[This message was edited by NuLife on 2005-04-23 17:49:35.] -
Subject to be discussed here or all thread related to this subject closed?
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discuss here. And here only please. Thank you.
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An account given during Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East:
"At 7:30 PM of December 19th, two Japanese soldiers gang raped a seventeen year old woman who has been pregnant for 9 months, led to the abortion of the fetus, the woman became insane."
PS: My apology to readers who find below pics disturbing.
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errrrrrrrrrrrrr
I agree its evil..but but..why can't we forgive them? -
eh where u get the pics from?? link lehz
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Source:
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4449005.stm
Published: 2005/04/16 11:04:22 GMT
-----------------
The row over Japan's past and future
By William Horsley, BBC News, Tokyo
Japan's decision to approve new school textbooks, criticised by some for glossing over the country's wartime record, have promoted demonstrations in several Chinese cities. But as William Horsley discovers the row between the two countries concerns the future as well as the past.
The most striking thing about the Yasukuni Shrine is its massive and forbidding black "torii" gate.
A distinctive symbol of the Shinto religion, a gaunt silhouette beneath which, on a bright spring day, I watched men and women of all ages streaming in to pay their respects to ancestors, or to admire the enchanting display of cherry blossoms on the tree-lined avenue.
Each family group would pause, shut their eyes and pray in front of the open-plan wooden building where the souls of two-and-a-half-million Japanese war dead are enshrined.
Those war dead include Hideki Tojo, Japan's wartime prime minister who was later hanged with a dozen other top leaders as a war criminal.
Japan's present leader, Junichiro Koizumi has made regular visits to Yasukuni Shrine in spite of furious complaints from China, South Korea and other neighbouring countries that in doing so he was condoning Japan's aggressive war in the 1930s and 1940s.
And now, the news from China is bad, very bad.
Demonstrations
Last weekend an angry crowd gathered in Beijing to throw stones at the Japanese embassy.
In other cities young people have attacked Japanese shops and businesses.
In Shanghai two Japanese students were badly beaten up in a restaurant.
Chinese leaders say Japan will not deserve a permanent seat on the UN Security Council until it faces up honestly to its wartime misdeeds.
An e-mail doing the rounds in China calls for a mass boycott of Japanese goods. "Send this on to other Chinese people", the message says, "and we won't need to go to war!"
History
This stream of invective against the Japanese is not new.
Some Asia watchers see it largely as a device by Chinese leaders to extract more Japanese aid or divert attention from their own failings.
It is alarmingly reminiscent of the age of the Communist Red Guards.
The Yasukuni Shrine remains a potent symbol of how the Japanese, intoxicated by fascism and coerced by military rule, once collectively lost their reason and were fed fantastic myths, of racial superiority and the Emperor's divinity
But on this trip to Japan I could not avoid the conclusion that a new mood of nationalism has also begun to take hold in this country which has been publicly devoted to peace and economic prosperity for so long.
One sign is the Japanese authorities' approval of several new school history textbooks written by known right-wing scholars.
One book which has angered the Chinese failed to make any assessment of the number of Chinese civilians killed in the infamous Rape of Nanjing.
The internationally accepted view is that hundreds of thousands died in an orgy of sexual violence and killing by Japanese troops.
And Japan's largest national newspaper, the Yomiuri Shimbun, in what I take to be blatant disregard for the known facts, has called on its readers to celebrate, because the new textbooks have cut out all mention of one of the greatest of all the humiliations inflicted by Imperial Japan on its neighbours: the use of large numbers of women in conquered Asian countries as sex slaves for the Japanese army.
It was right to set the record straight, I read, because the accusations "had been shown to be untrue".
Surely I thought modern Japan could not give in to the poison of such deceit and hypocrisy ever again.
The Yasukuni Shrine remains a potent symbol of how the Japanese, intoxicated by fascism and coerced by military rule, once collectively lost their reason and were fed fantastic myths, of racial superiority and the Emperor's divinity.
'Bitter dispute'
I had come to see the recently expanded Yasukuni museum of Japanese history.
For 100 years Japan has been number one in Asia. Now China, with 10 times Japan's population, is in a hurry to take over that role
I found that its 18 galleries of high-quality displays, maps and texts amount to a lavish and expensive re-write of the history of Japan's imperial age, to show the Japanese as innocent victims of a conspiracy by the Western colonial powers, to thwart Japan's ambition to lead East Asia and force Japan into war.
By this account annexing Korea, setting up a puppet regime in Manchukuo, the step by step takeover of China, each was done in self-defence, aiming only to bring peace.
As for Nanjing, I found no mention of Japanese soldiers killing civilians.
Instead, these words: "The Chinese were soundly defeated, suffering heavy casualties. Inside the city, residents were once again able to live their lives in peace."
However you look at it, that will not do as a record of what happened.
By chance I came across this testimony of a Japanese army veteran who was there.
"No matter how young or old, none of the women we rounded up could escape being raped. Each one was allocated to 15 or 20 soldiers for sexual intercourse and abuse."
Afterwards "we always stabbed them and killed them. Because dead bodies don't talk."
The bitter dispute now raging between Japan and China is both about setting the record straight and about a struggle for power.
For 100 years Japan has been number one in Asia.
Now China, with 10 times Japan's population, is in a hurry to take over that role.
And as with highly-geared racing cars sharing the same circuit, it is the moment of overtaking that brings the greatest risk of a crash. [/size]
====================================
From Our Own Correspondent was broadcast on Saturday 16 April, 2005 at 1130 BST on BBC Radio 4. -
What one can learn from an unedited history textbook:
On 22 Apr 2005, Japanese PM Koizumi issued (another) "äpology" for Japanese WWII atrocities when over 160 of his MPs visited the Yasukuni shrine on the same day.
On 7 Dec 1941, Japanese ambassador in Washington had requested to meet US Secretary of State when over 360 Japanese planes attacked Pearl Harbour in the same morning.
Actions speak Louder than words.
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There is no place of worship nor rememberance for Nazi dead in today's Germany. Only a constant reminder in there education system, visits to concentration camps by students and annual rememberance day for the persecuted victims of Nazi Germany.
For the benefit of reader, this was taken during a visit to Warsaw Ghetto Memorial in 1970 by the late Chancellor of Germany, Willy Brandt. During WW2, this Nobel Prize winner was a wanted man by the Nazi.
Some history of this Nobel Prize winner.
http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Willy_Brandt
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I really suspect you are a Jap or maybe half Jap.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:errrrrrrrrrrrrr
I agree its evil..but but..why can't we forgive them? -
i am not a jap. but why cant we forgive. just dont forget!!
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The Jap were forgiven, thats why there is normal and formal relationship between Japan and all other countries. China and Korea had not sent troops into Japan after WW2 to take revenge and neither had there been any actions to retaliate against the jap after the war.Originally posted by dragg:i am not a jap. but why cant we forgive. just dont forget!!
It is dont forget that is the problem. if visiting the Yasukuni shrine and whitewashing the historical facts are condoned, then in future, nobody knows what exactly happened, that is forgetting!! -
this i agree. as long as there are no more bloodshed.Originally posted by sgdiehard:The Jap were forgiven, thats why there is normal and formal relationship between Japan and all other countries. China and Korea had not sent troops into Japan after WW2 to take revenge and neither had there been any actions to retaliate against the jap after the war.
It is dont forget that is the problem. if visiting the Yasukuni shrine and whitewashing the historical facts are condoned, then in future, nobody knows what exactly happened, that is forgetting!! -
muahahahahz finally got ppl agree wif me... forgive and forget... let bygones be bygones... hahaz... eh this not only work wif conflicts you noe... anything sad happen to you just let it go... life would and will be much happier... jus that alot of ppl will say ur either a cold hearted or a heartless/useless piece of shi+ who cant care less bout anything... then again some ppl find it cool... whatever the case maybe....Originally posted by dragg:this i agree. as long as there are no more bloodshed. -
forgive, but never forget. because it might be the future who will face such an issue again. They will have to look back to the past to find a way to deal with it.
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i am used to the insults already!!Originally posted by mad.obsessionz:muahahahahz finally got ppl agree wif me... forgive and forget... let bygones be bygones... hahaz... eh this not only work wif conflicts you noe... anything sad happen to you just let it go... life would and will be much happier... jus that alot of ppl will say ur either a cold hearted or a heartless/useless piece of shi+ who cant care less bout anything... then again some ppl find it cool... whatever the case maybe.... -
Both are equally wrong in distorting history and playing global politics with their populations' frustrations.
Let cooler heads prevail pls. -
Originally posted by SilentAssassin:
[b]Both are equally wrong in distorting history and playing global politics with their populations' frustrations.[b]
What a convenient comment.
So what is your "undistorted" view of this 20th century history ? -
i agree. read today's straits times pg 8 and 9. china also guilty of distorting facts and cover-up in their textbooks.Originally posted by SilentAssassin:Both are equally wrong in distorting history and playing global politics with their populations' frustrations.
Let cooler heads prevail pls. -
SilentAssassin has been silent ?? by the communist agent from china??Originally posted by Gun:
What a convenient comment.
So what is your "undistorted" view of this 20th century history ? -
Originally posted by dragg:
"History will always be distorted so long as politicians and textbook publishers,
i agree. read today's straits times pg 8 and 9. china also guilty of distorting facts and cover-up in their textbooks.
driven by political and profit motives, control the educational system."
- Howard Zinn, American historian
There is no country in this world not guilty of "distorting facts and cover-up in their textbooks". Even the Singapore government cannot claim to be free from approving history textbooks written as subjected to their own perceptions.
It may be downright insensitive for the Japanese government to gloss over the war atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers during World War II in their history textbooks, and many would defend that it is their own business and they were doing just what every other country would do.
However, put that action in conjunction with their call for amendment to Article 9 in Japan's post-war Constitution that forbids armed troops abroad, with Japan's bid for a Permanent seat in the U.N. Security Council, with the recent visit of Japanese ministers to Yasukuni Shrine, and most observers can get a rough big picture of Japan's political ambitions. And it is not a pretty picture.
Of course these could all be speculative. However, if Japan wishes to learn from the example of Germany and be accepted as a leader of U.N., it should learn from the Germany after World War II, not the Germany before then. -
With old institutions like the monarchy still around, it is impossible for Japan to confront its aggressive past. The reason why (West) Germany (and Italy) could have good ties with its neighbours and form the backbone of the EU was because those responsible for WW2 were removed from power altogether. With the Nazi party forced underground and Victor Immanuel exiled, democratic forces could lead the change unhindered.Originally posted by Tuatau:Of course these could all be speculative. However, if Japan wishes to learn from the example of Germany and be accepted as a leader of U.N., it should learn from the Germany after World War II, not the Germany before then. -
if your late grandparents were murderers, do you stop praying to them at qing ming?
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coz they havent ask for our forgiveness what.. how to forgive them when they still think it's right?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:errrrrrrrrrrrrr
I agree its evil..but but..why can't we forgive them?