Human right group. Shut up for our death penalty system !
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And BTW, when I mean FACTS, I mean cases tat can be found in Singapore. No point talking about USA, Canada, Australia, blah blah blah cos those r not SINGAPORE. IF by now the advocates of non capital punishment cannot see tat this is Singaporean cultures, beliefs and foundation that we r built on, then too sad u r arguing here cos the arguments doesnt give weight, Different countries and different cultures, how ken u even apply them to Singapore in the very first place?
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Originally posted by kentona:
I can bet that Took Leng Hao is going to hang for murder even if Huang Na's real killer wasn't him.
Wah Lau, u read up on some news article in other countries and applied that to Spore, dont u have the faintest idea that this is Singapore we r talking about? How often do u hear of such cases in Singapore? Dont go shooting off ur mouth juz bcos u feel u r so damn self-righteous ok. Supply us with FACTS [b][/b] -
Originally posted by kentona:
u may like to read up on the link i provided in my previous post.
Wah Lau, u read up on some news article in other countries and applied that to Spore, dont u have the faintest idea that this is Singapore we r talking about? How often do u hear of such cases in Singapore? Dont go shooting off ur mouth juz bcos u feel u r so damn self-righteous ok. Supply us with FACTS [b][/b]
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa360012004
this is an excellent report on what is going on here in SG.
scroll to Case Studies, and judge for yourselves if the punishments were too harsh and un-accommodating. Imagine a 18year old girl was hanged, juz becoz they found drugs in a 'hidden compartment'. Guilty or not, I believe the young girl deserves a second chance in life.
And SIS > FYI, the max limit on the various drugs are very very low, making it a MANDATORY DEATH SENTENCE (judge cannot chose other sentence) for anyone found with more than the specified amount (which is a small amount).
PRP is right in the comment that drug traffickers are not DIRECTLY responsible for harming drug addicts - it is the addicts who harm themselves, no one else. The Death Penalty for drug traffickers in SG is not in line with the guidelines set by the UN.
A search on google about Singapore, some website says Singapore is a popular transit for drugs. Goes to show no matter the harsh laws on drug trafficking, SG is still very popular as a transit/destination for these traffickers.
Most controversial is this law presumes a person to be Guilty and the burden is on the person to prove himself otherwise.
Quoted:
Anyone found guilty of trafficking, importing or exporting the following specified amounts of drugs faces a mandatory death sentence: more than 1,200 grams of opium, more than 30 grams of morphine, more than 15 grams of heroin, more than 30 grams of cocaine, more than 500 grams of cannabis, more than 1,000 grams of cannabis mixture, more than 200 grams of cannabis resin, more than 250 grams of methamphetamine. The manufacture of the same drugs also carries the death penalty. The UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions has called for the death penalty to be eliminated for drug-related offences, referring to the Safeguards for the protection of the rights of those facing the death penalty, which state that the scope of crimes subject to the death penalty should not go beyond "intentional crimes with lethal or other extremely grave consequences." -
If law gives such an idea, then it must do alot more to fit into our "civilised" society. Law should never be an avenue for revenge.
Actually, one of the reasons for justice may be to right out the wrong for the victim. Though it was never stated as such, it do gives the idea tis is a form of revenge
It is my belief that no one person is lesser than another, thus, if the law strives to sacrifice an innocent person or a group of innocent minority in favour of the majority, then this system is making a mockery of justice. We should be judged as an individual, on our deeds, not just so as to make way for the majority. Innocent or Guilty, NOT minority or majority!
However we have to compare between the final result of the soceity instead of just individual.
The whole idea of the death penalty and other forms of punishment is indeed to deter and "scare" people. However:
DO u agree tat if a death penalty, it do deter many forms of serious crimes such as murdering, firearms transaction, kidnapping, bank robbery and drug abuse ? If u compared statistic, u will find tat overall, more people benefited from tis system. It make little sense to save an apple by throwng away a basket of them
1. Does Capital punishment really work better? "Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments." Statistics of drug abusers in SG rise and fall thru different times even long after our implementation of the death penalty for drug traffickers, indicating the fact that death penalty does not effectively deter these traffickers.
2. Is there a better way to prevent crime? the best way to deter crime is to increase the certainty of detection, arrest and conviction. Most criminals think they can get away with it, esp drug traffickers, which is why they did it in the first place, and may even do it again. If detection is improved up til the stage of almost fail-safe, drug traffickers will realise that it is very difficult or impossible for them to get away undetected.
3. What should we do with the criminals? put them away, or kill them so that the rest of us live in peace? or help them integrate into the society? condemn them because they made a mistake out of folly or becoz they had little education to begin with?
i quote again:
"Are we assisting the socially excluded to reintegrate into society or are we disposing them off [sic] as rejects?"
4. Do we really need to kill them? Does it reflect well the state of civilisation that we have? Are we still living in a society that encourages execution? Is it humane? This goes a long way to show how "civilised" we really are.
The fact that our law shifts the proving part to the accused is totally in opposite of the fundamentals of law. If they need evidence, motive, etc to prove a person guilty of murder, I don't understand why the case of drug trafficking has such a superficial and simplified condition. They dont need to produce any other evidence, the only condition is to find u in possession of a banned drug. Possession not necessarily mean found on your body or bags, it can also mean a location where u have the keys to, perhaps a room, ur drawer/locker or ur car. This can open up to a huge range of possibilities!
Wa about firearm ? It is the same isn't it ? U r deemed to possessed firearms when u really have firearms isn't it ? Wat else could have been added in to prove a person is a drug trafficker ? Maybe the best way is to make the public wary of being a victm to such a crime and be more careful in dealing with their belongings.
What else could have been added you asked.
1. Does suspect have a motive? e.g. Suspect having financial diffculty? Suspect is an addict himself? Suspect bring in for friend?
2. Does suspect have any means of contact with the suppliers? there's no way i can get drugs if i dont even know where to get from!
3. Any proof of ownership or knowledge of possession of illegal drug? physical contact will probably leave fingerprints. Also further proves that suspect has knowledge of possession. If I have never seen or touched it, there is a chance that I have no knowledge of it.
There can be so much more that can be done to prove that the accused has knowledge of possession of illegal drugs. However, our law does not require all these. Is it becoz they are lazy or cant be bothered to find more evidence to prove their case? Or is it becoz a human life is nothing to them? Why else would the condition be so simplistic and easily established?
Making the public more aware of their own belongings is a good idea. However, no matter how alert we can be, sometimes some people can still be pickpocketed. Likewise, putting stuff into a tired and unsuspecting traveller is easy, much easier in the case of the common Singaporean - we have grown to be very careless people as a whole. Therefore, should a careless person be sentenced to death?If u talk about drug abuser, than u should be glad tat the amount stipulated is actually very great.
Contrary to what you said, the amount is very little. That is why sometimes a drug abuser, whom does not deserve death according to our law, suddenly and automatically becomes labeled as a drug trafficker and his punishment becomes death.
Repeat what i have said before, statistics show that there's increase of drug abusers in SG even after implementation of death penalty for drug traffickers is a good indication that harsher punishment (death sentence) doesnt work. So it is really not our common sense we should trust, rather the actual facts and statistics.
Also u will find tat the drug addict cases drop drastically after harsher laws were implemented. Furthermore, I believe it is common sense to know at harsher punishment give higher deterence. Otherwise migt as well free all criminals again since if the lower the punishment the more deterence it gives out
So now i ask - why not mete out an EVEN HARSHER punishment since the death penalty does'nt work? Should we extend the punishment to execute the guilty's family members as well? Common sense says this harsher punishment should work better to deter. hahah back to Ancient China system!
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Instead of chop off head,why not just chop off hand as a form of punishment.Even thou the suggestion is still cruel & inhumane,but it is less cruel than capital punishment.Would supporters of capital punishment agree?
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Originally posted by EXCO:
hmm... Then isn't tt bloody hypocrisy on teh part of the govt?
The crux of the issue is to [b]prevent the spread of drugs in Singapore.
True there is nothing we can do if one day all the teenagers decide to go to overseas to have some drugs. Its their perogative, as far as the Law and Government is concerned, its not in Singapore.[/b][/b] -
The legal system should be reformed. There are two options:
Either do away with capital punishment altogether, and bring people to justice quickly without wasting taxpayers money in the liberated nations (remember Mik McCrea languishing in prison in Melbourne?); or bring back the jury for capital offences. The jury will decide the person's guilt, and if he is guilty, whether he should hang or not.
A side note, the Ministry of Law also can have its responsibilities expanded and renamed Justice & Correctional Services Ministry. The Prisons Department can be taken out of the Home Team's scope and placed under the JCS shpere of influence. -
Well, if the people who make these laws actually have the intellect to explore a different mindset and create laws based on input and real societal impact , and not on a narrow field of vision, we wouldn't be facing this problem would we.
It's sad that the human life has been degraded.To say the victim has suffered is alright, but must we commit the second sin by degrading one more person to death? -
The following link provides a study concluding that there is strong evidence of deterrent effect for capital punishment. As it is quite a long paper, IÂ’ve included the abstract for easy reading; let's make this forum a more interesting place for all.....
http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=alea
Hashem Dezhbakhsh ( [email protected])
Joanna M. Shepherd
Additional information is available for the following registered author(s):
· Hashem Dezhbakhsh
Abstract
Does capital punishment deter capital crimes? We use panel data covering the fifty states duringthe period 1960-2000 period to examine the issue. Our study is novel in four ways. First, we estimate the moratorium's full effect by using both pre- and postmoratorium evidence. Second, we exploit the moratorium as a judicial experiment to measure criminals' responsiveness to the severity of punishment; we compare murder rates immediately before and after changes in states' death penalty laws. The inference draws on the variations in the timing and duration of the moratorium across states provide a cross section of murder rate changes occurring in various time periods. Third, we supplement the before-and-after comparisons with regression analysis that disentangles the impact of the moratorium itself on murder from the effect on murder of actual executions. By using two different approaches, we avoid many of the modeling criticisms of earlier studies. Fourth, in addition to estimating 84 distinct regression models—with variations in regressors, estimation method, and functional form—our robustness checks examine the moratorium's impact on crimes that are not punishable by death. Our results indicate that capital punishment has a deterrent effect, and the moratorium and executions deter murders in distinct ways. This evidence is corroborated by both the before-and-after comparisons and regression analysis. We also confirm that the moratorium and executions do not cause similar changes in non-capital crimes. The results are highly robust. -
i highly doubt that the results are so-called 'robust'. IMO, it is inaccurate at best.
How did i come to that conclusion?
I quote AGAIN:
"Claiming that the death penalty has been effective in controlling the trade in illicit drugs, the Singapore authorities reported an overall decline in the number of drug abusers arrested between 1994 and 2001....According to the website of the Singapore Central Narcotics Bureau (CNB), a total of 3,393 drug abusers were arrested in 2002. The number of new drug abusers increased by 16% compared to the figures for 2001."
This is very good evidence that the number of drug abusers (and thus their supplies via traffickers) rise and fall REGARDLESS of the death penalty which had been implemented in SG a long time ago. If death penalty works well as a long term deterrant, there shouldn't be a rise at all isn't it?
And PRP > cutting off people's limbs
.... is soooo barbaric.... -
If death penalty works well as a long term deterrant, there shouldn't be a rise at all isn't it?
Rise or fall in cases of drug abuse is not only a function of the deterrence against trafficking. Another crucial factor is success in enforcement which determines drug availability and consequently, market price. Yes, drug abusers have to pay market price to use illicit drugs.
Sadly, their misery contributes to the wealth of drug traffickers and peddlers. I have no sympathy for traffickers when they are caught. -
Conclusion: Capital punishment cannot deter crimes.
read the case studies and tell me you don't feel sympathy, esp for the drug trafficker cases - the 18yr old HK shop assistant, the unfair trial and hanged even after denial of involvement.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa360012004
the 18 yr old HK girl... hanged. We dont even know if she is really trafficking drugs! Ok, let's juz pretend that she was really guilty, doesnt she deserve another chance in life? you know what kind of mindset an 18 year old has? Kill her or help her change in her life? Guess that our system always chose the easier way out of things huh?
The replies by the "higher-ups" and how the cases were handled leaves us thinking how these "higher-ups" think of everyone else. -
I agree that the human rights gp shld stop criticising. What is more merciful than killing? Spending your entire life in a cell with no hope of parole? What I am surprised was how Aussies punish their pp. 2 yrs for trraficking marijuana?? It hardly does any good! The Aussies themselves shld know drug problems within their compound.
We met out death sentence largely as deterrence. Killing may not be right. But if killing 1 saves many, I would be more willing to impose death penalty. Besides critcising, I hardly see these groups suggest better ways. -
if u would actually bothered to read, I'm sure u can "see" the suggestions.Originally posted by SBS3624G:Besides critcising, I hardly see these groups suggest better ways.
Are you agreeing with thoose who always take the easier way out, and thinkin nothing of others' life (as long as it is not ur own)? -
600g can feed how many addicted pp!Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Its stupid to KILL someone over 600 gram of drugs.. -
what about 15g of heroin?Originally posted by SBS3624G:600g can feed how many addicted pp!
15g... u know how much that is?
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Conclusion: Capital punishment cannot deter crimes.
AI can hardly be quoted as an unbiased source of info; suggest you explore the link from Emory University. Personally I find capital punishment distasteful and potentially open to miscarriage of justice, but nevertheless, the lesser evil.
read the case studies and tell me you don't feel sympathy, esp for the drug trafficker cases - the 18yr old HK shop assistant, the unfair trial and hanged even after denial of involvement.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa360012004 -
if u're saying AI is very biased, are you challenging that what they wrote in their webpage is inaccurate?Originally posted by suntze:AI can hardly be quoted as an unbiased source of info; suggest you explore the link from Emory University. Personally I find capital punishment distasteful and potentially open to miscarriage of justice, but nevertheless, the lesser evil.
What information exactly, are u saying is inaccurate?
The figures of the rising drug addicts in year 2002? Or the case studies?
U dont like AI becoz they give biased info or are u biased towards them? Well, we can explore other websites too, and we'll still get the same information.
Was innocent man hanged due to procedure?
Quote:
When Mr Ravi asked the CJ if the public prosecutor was "still maintaining that an innocent man be hanged because of procedure", the CJ answered: "Yes, the answer is yes."
Can u imagine u can be pronounced guilty and u cannot challenge the prosecutors' claim becoz they say they have to keep the informer's identity anonymous?
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Seems like they dont have it better in Japan. Also further proves the system is far from fool-proof. Execution of innocent men is not juz an imagination.
Quoted from http://www.thinkcentre.org/article.cfm?ArticleID=2497
" the media leads the charge of this public cry for retribution even in cases where the convicted were actually innocent."
There were actually four people in Japan who escaped their death sentences from the Supreme Court when new evidence was found that proved their innocence. Menda Sakae (of the Menda Case) and Akabori Masao (of the Shimada Case) were two of the four. On November 14, 2003, they attended the meeting of Citizens to Abolish the Death Penalty sponsored by Amnesty Japan and others held in eastern Kyoto and attended by almost 160 people.
Mr. Menda, who was haunted by a nagging "fear of execution" for thirty-two years ever since he was first convicted, told people that, "Almost seventy judges had heard my case, but only two judges saw the truth of the matter. I also witnessed seventy people being executed while I was in prison. Among them, some had insisted on their innocence, like me." Mr. Akabori, who was in prison for thirty-five years after he was forced to sign a confession by police, also appealed to the public: "Many people died in prison or are executed, even if they insist on their innocence. Please abolish the death penalty." -
AI has been accused by many of bias in their focus and reporting and is controversial at best. See following link detailing an interview with Francis Boyle, an ex-board member of AI.
http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0004573.html -
Gd question.Originally posted by Poopie-Head:what about 15g of heroin?
15g... u know how much that is? -
Suntze,
U should read the msg by Poopie-Head on 11 Jun 2005 (5.30 p.m.)
While we want an effective deterrent to the crime,but I think we should still adhere to our moral principle. -
i think singapore punishment system is good you cant let go of these offenders....but some time should have some compassion......these ppl pay alot of money to come here to work......you know a average maid pays the agency for seven years before they really give the money to their family????Originally posted by skyline63:Singapore man to hang despite plea by sons: group
ADVERTISEMENT
SINGAPORE, May 10 (Reuters) - Singapore will hang an ethnic Tamil man on Friday for trafficking about 1 kg (2.2 lb) of cannabis despite a rare public plea by his teeange sons to stop the execution, a human rights group said.
After 38-year-old Shanmugam Murugesu lost an appeal to escape the gallows in January, his 14-year-old twin children took to Singapore's streets, handing out flyers last month urging public support to stop the execution, saying it would make them orphans.
Think Centre, a Singapore human rights group, said Murugesu's family had received notification on Monday he will be hanged on Friday, May 13.
"We are calling everyone, wherever they are, to hold a silent vigil for Shanmugam," Think Centre president Sinapan Samydorai told Reuters on Tuesday.
Murugesu, a Singapore citizen, was convicted of trafficking after his arrest at Singapore's border with Malaysia in August 2003. Singapore President S.R. Nathan said last month Murugesu would not receive clemency.
Prison officials said they could not immediately comment.
Singapore enforces some of the world's toughest drug laws. Anyone aged 18 or over convicted of carrying more than 500 grammes (17.6 ounces) of cannabis faces execution by hanging.
In a 2004 report, human rights group Amnesty International said about 400 people have been hanged in Singapore since 1991, mostly for drug trafficking, giving the wealthy city-state of 4.2 million people possibly the highest execution rate in the world relative to its population.
Amnesty says only 6 people sentenced to death in Singapore have been spared executionsince independence in 1965.
Singaporestaunchly defends its use of capital punishment. The government claims death penalty has broad public support and has deterred major drug syndicates from establishing themselves in Singapore.
Human right group. Shut up and get lost. If everyone do crime can be let go. Like there where got justice ? Inside prison enjoy life. Free meals, free wake-up call in the morning. Still not good enough ? Outside people starving to death eating plain rice with soya sause. Never see you human right group come out with any money ?
Maybe if you give free meals everyday to poor Singaporean. Many people will support you. Don't give meals to all the foreign workers hor ! Come here work, buy your own food ! I Know a lot of temples, a lot of chinese workers, Indian workers who have no sense of shame. Everyday go there and eat ! Save a lot of money and bring home to become KING leh ! Find three wife and rape all the poor family daughter virgin ! Human rights group should go there and talk mah. Nothing to do huh ?
If everyone come out and cry for mercy. Then let go, no need to died. Like that I also want to murder people loh. First one is the human right group people. Cut them up one by one ! Then second take 1 tons of drug and sell ! Become billionare in one day ! After that can take 10 wife and 1000 mistress as my sex slave everyday.
]
these singaporeans should know better not to do trafficking drugs.....surely get hanged....even if you plead not to be hanged,maybe lucky you will get life imprisonment.... -
Evil is evil. Believing in a "lesser evil" is avoiding the fact that it is still an evil. Listen to your heart, not to your mind. AI is not unbiased certainly, but bias doesn't make the information they report inaccurate. They could be reporting a selective set of facts, which is after all the same modus operandi as the Straits Times itself, except that the latter salvages itself.Originally posted by suntze:AI can hardly be quoted as an unbiased source of info; suggest you explore the link from Emory University. Personally I find capital punishment distasteful and potentially open to miscarriage of justice, but nevertheless, the lesser evil.
By trying to convince yourself tt something is the "lesser evil", you are effectively trying to consciously deem it as good while subconsciously still feeling the urge in your subconscious to condemn it. There's the Chinese proverb "ge an guan huo" : "watching the other shore while it burns." What does such a person think? "It is the lesser evil than my house being burnt down, so I can't do anything about it. As long as i remain unhurt, it is good"
Anyway, read this review about Amnesty International on Ciao!:-
http://www.ciao.co.uk/amnesty_org_Amnesty_International__Review_5315416
Your nickname is Sun Tze. This guy wrote "the art of war", and one of teh most famous statements in it is "Know thyself, Know thy enemy, and a thousand battles will be yours to win." By succumbing to the thought of something being a "lesser evil", you are refusing to know yourself. And obviously, you won't have a drive to know your enemy - the Death Penalty. So why not give a thought about it?
the (concerned) pikamaster -
Some people just deserve to die..........
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THis is an extract from a forum on the Death Penalty in the USA:Originally posted by suntze:The following link provides a study concluding that there is strong evidence of deterrent effect for capital punishment. As it is quite a long paper, IÂ’ve included the abstract for easy reading; let's make this forum a more interesting place for all.....
http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=alea
Hashem Dezhbakhsh ( [email protected])
Joanna M. Shepherd
Additional information is available for the following registered author(s):
· Hashem Dezhbakhsh
Abstract
Does capital punishment deter capital crimes? We use panel data covering the fifty states duringthe period 1960-2000 period to examine the issue. Our study is novel in four ways. First, we estimate the moratorium's full effect by using both pre- and postmoratorium evidence. Second, we exploit the moratorium as a judicial experiment to measure criminals' responsiveness to the severity of punishment; we compare murder rates immediately before and after changes in states' death penalty laws. The inference draws on the variations in the timing and duration of the moratorium across states provide a cross section of murder rate changes occurring in various time periods. Third, we supplement the before-and-after comparisons with regression analysis that disentangles the impact of the moratorium itself on murder from the effect on murder of actual executions. By using two different approaches, we avoid many of the modeling criticisms of earlier studies. Fourth, in addition to estimating 84 distinct regression models—with variations in regressors, estimation method, and functional form—our robustness checks examine the moratorium's impact on crimes that are not punishable by death. Our results indicate that capital punishment has a deterrent effect, and the moratorium and executions deter murders in distinct ways. This evidence is corroborated by both the before-and-after comparisons and regression analysis. We also confirm that the moratorium and executions do not cause similar changes in non-capital crimes. The results are highly robust.
The other point about the second question you raised: Does this person deserve to die? Well, I know we're not going to get off into the moral aspects of it, but my position is that no one deserves to die at the hands of the government. But, not withstanding that fact, it's a question of luck. If you went to the Illinois maximum-security prison and looked at the 20 worst cases of people on death row, and then you looked at 20 individuals convicted of first-degree murder, you would find that there's not that much difference in terms of the brutality, the heinousness of the crime, between the 20 people serving life with no parole and those on death row. It's serendipity. To some extent, it's what judge that individual wound up in front of. What defense lawyer represented the individual who got life versus the individual who got death? Who was the prosecutor in the case?
http://www.fathom.com/course/10701044/session3.html
the pikamaster