We are NOT Chinese....We are Peranakan
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Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart on 1 June 2005:Whatever it is, im proud of my heritage as an OVERSEAS chinese and my nationality .
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im chinese by race and am proud to have 5000 years of rich history..im not gonna label myself a primitive south-east asian who builds houses out of grass and wooden sticks even in the 19th century.
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You another Hyprocrite ?.Originally posted by vito_corleone:im chinese by race and am proud to have 5000 years of rich history..im not gonna label myself a primitive south-east asian who builds houses out of grass and wooden sticks even in the 19th century.
In ChitChat forum you told off some racist for being "childish". and here you are doing the very same thing ! Can't remember ?
May this link can help re-fresh your memory:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=118709Originally posted by vito_corleone on 21 February 2005 · 05:49 AM:look guys, just stop this childish behavior its getting lame. henry, if u hate india and stuff by all means go ahead but don't flame all indians. munabhai, if you don't like us u can jolly well fock off back to mumbai, this is sgforums, not mumbai forums, don't come into our place and make trouble. period.
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im stating facts. is that hypocrisy or childishness?Originally posted by Gun: didnt the natives really build structures out of sticks and leaves even up till the begining of the 20th century? -
he wasn't jewish,Originally posted by vito_corleone:and just FYI, hitler was jewish also.
he's an aasshole -
Originally posted by vito_corleone:
unfortunately, you hv missed my point.
im stating facts. is that hypocrisy or childishness? didnt the natives really build structures out of sticks and leaves even up till the begining of the 20th century?
This isn't about a comparison of civilisation advancement. and certainly NOT about race superiority complex.
This IS about your character as a human being.
If you still cannot understand nor appreciate the double standards that hv shown thru your postings, I certainly wish you well in your education in the US where racial sensitivity is constantly played out in all levels of society.
You can say all u like with anonymous protection in forum, but I doubt u are capable of doing the same thing for real.
Childishness. Did I say that ? I don't think so.
Hypocrisy? Your postings didn't lie. Did it ?
You decide. -
what's so childish about stating solid facts of civillisational advancement?Originally posted by Gun:unfortunately, you hv missed my point.
This isn't about a comparison of civilisation advancement. and certainly NOT about race superiority complex.
This IS about your character as a human being.
If you still cannot understand nor appreciate the double standards that hv shown thru your postings, I certainly wish you well in your education in the US where racial sensitivity is constantly played out in all levels of society.
You can say all u like with anonymous protection in forum, but I doubt u are capable of doing the same thing for real.
Childishness. Did I say that ? I don't think so.
Hypocrisy? Your postings didn't lie. Did it ?
You decide. i seriously think you have some issues you need to work out. -
You childish ? I think not.Originally posted by vito_corleone:what's so childish about stating solid facts of civillisational advancement? i seriously think you have some issues you need to work out.
Do I have issues to work on ? Yeah, absolutely...issues like you being a Hypocrite.
Why?
In ChitChat forum you told off some racist for being "childish". and here you are doing the very same thing !
Can't remember ?
May this link can help re-fresh your memory:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=118709Originally posted by vito_corleone on 21 February 2005 · 05:49 AM:look guys, just stop this childish behavior its getting lame. henry, if u hate india and stuff by all means go ahead but don't flame all indians. munabhai, if you don't like us u can jolly well fock off back to mumbai, this is sgforums, not mumbai forums, don't come into our place and make trouble. period. -
was i being racist? i never said anything negative about other races here. quote me any verse that i made saying other races sucked or are crap.
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Relax every1
Dr WHoa maybe jus trying to psycho pple to take the DNA test for $250 to check our bloodline/ heritage whatever... maybe he got earn share or commission. Maybe he kanna whacked b4 by china & local chinese, so he beri Dulan & want revenge, or is he really that infamous Chan family of 130B Everitt Road, or a Dr from IMH. Or even an gov agent or upcoming politian trying to D&C the public? we may never know, so why get so excited?
Case CLosing
(D&C = Divide & Conquer' or 'Divide & Control' is an old strategic used by military generals, politcians & leaders of the world for many thousand of years!!! till today it is still being used!!!)
Racism is just one of the many political cards...
let Ya dogs eat dogs
As long there is Arrogance & Ignorance, Racism will never end -
I hadn't the slightest clue when & where had I used that word on youOriginally posted by vito_corleone:was i being racist? i never said anything negative about other races here. : quote me any verse that i made saying other races sucked or are crap.
Can u help me on that ?
All I know is to help recollect what u had said then and now:
Geee...interesting of you to bring that "R" word out when I'd prefer the "H" word to describe uOriginally posted by vito_corleone:im chinese by race and am proud to have 5000 years of rich history..im not gonna label myself a primitive south-east asian who builds houses out of grass and wooden sticks even in the 19th century.
Mind sharing which "primitive south-east asian" u referring to -
wo de fu ching chong fujian lai, wo ah gong ye shi chong tang shang lai sho yi wo shi hua ren....sing jia puo de hua ren....git it sh it headOriginally posted by Dr Who:In the eyes of the chinese from China, singapore chinese are barbarians trying to pass off as Chinese.
Maybe they are right. We are not Chinese. We are Peranakan-a mix of Chinese and Malay.........remember that when our ancestor came, they married local women.....the children grew up to be Baba/ Nonya......
Studies show that more than 30% of Chinese in Singapore had Baba genes 40 years ago.......today maybe 70% are already of mixed blood. Even Lee Kuan Yew is of mixed blood........ so don't call ourselves Chinese......We are not pure Chinese...... we are Peranakan .........Let's be proud of this mixed heiritage. -
and what's so malignant about what i said?Originally posted by Gun:Geee...interesting of you to bring that "R" word out when I'd prefer the "H" word to describe u
Mind sharing which "primitive south-east asian" u referring to anyone who builds buildings out of sticks and leaves? remember the colonial message: mission civilatrice. you're not answering my question in anyway. -
Originally posted by Dr Who:
Do the Chinese from China view their overseas brethens as 'barbarians' ?
In the eyes of the chinese from China, singapore chinese are barbarians trying to pass off as Chinese.
Maybe they are right. We are not Chinese. We are Peranakan-a mix of Chinese and Malay.........remember that when our ancestor came, they married local women.....the children grew up to be Baba/ Nonya......
Studies show that more than 30% of Chinese in Singapore had Baba genes 40 years ago.......today maybe 70% are already of mixed blood. Even Lee Kuan Yew is of mixed blood........ so don't call ourselves Chinese......We are not pure Chinese...... we are Peranakan .........Let's be proud of this mixed heiritage.
If so, why does the term 'Hua Chiao' - (literral translation will be 'Chinese bridge') - exist as a term to describe overseas Chinese ?
Why is the derogatory term 'kwei' not used to call overseas Chinese as 'Hua Kwei', as it is used in describing every other foreigner other then Chinese ?
The term 'Peranakan' is a derogatory term coined by the Malays towards the Chinese community, who have lost its own identity by adopting the Malay language and culture into their everyday life, and creating a new mixed patoise of words and nuances for the 'Malay' influenced Chinese.
The Malays see this 'new group' of Chinese who has adopted Malay languages, Malay dressing and Malay practices but are not Muslims - and refer this group of Chinese as 'Peranakans' - with the last 'anak' being a Child, and 'anakan' as 'picked up' - as in orphans !
The larger Chinese Community has seen the 'Perankans' as 'bastardised' cousins, who have denounced their own ancestry and roots from the various Chinese Provinces of Guangzhou, Fuchian, Hainan and beyond.
Having forgotten their roots, the Perankans have also lost memories of their original dialects and cultural practises, and creating a new mix that is seen as a 'convenient deformation' of the original.
Can this disclaimer of not being Chinese and merely a Peranakan hold true ?
How can it be, when the Peranakans continue with ancient Chinese cultural events in 'watered down' versions, and mix-and-patch practises ?
This thread probably stems from the insecurity and inadequacy of Dr Who in being a Chinese, and has written this derogatory piece to boost his own deluded position as a 'Peranakan'.
It is a disservice to the Chinese, and belittle the position of the Perankans.
To those who remain solidly Peranakans, and solidly Chinese, and solidly Malay - the Perankans can serve as a bridge to these two cultures, BUT only when the Peranakans are able to recognise their unique position of having come from one, and evolving themselves into a new image.
Can the Peranakan community serve in this unique role by denying its position as a Chinese, and merely a 'Peranakan' ?
What is a 'Peranakan' ?
Is it a racial group by itself ?
What country does it come from ?
Who is 'Dr Who' ? -
i'm half cantonese half mandrin.
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why do so many forumnites have to emphasise themselves as "singaporean chinese"? all chinese come from china, n many "singaporean chinese" in the past go back to china to fight in the war, if not as least actively raising funds ... why issit tt after a generation or two, "singaporean chinese" have detached themselves from china, even to despise new immigrants from china? n viewing china as an economic threat, learning chinese just to ride its economic boom? if singapore were to remain a british colony n majority chinese still graduate from chinese medium schs, wat will the situation be like?
most "singaporeans chinese" are proud to be singaporeans...too proud of it that their pride in their nationality have taken over their ethnicity...n proud of losing their traditions, language dialect n culture...
chinese in neighbouring countries r trying to v hard to preserve their ethnic rights n culture, while "singaporean chinese" r taking things for granted, n dun give a hoot losing their culture...happily cutting chinese syllabus, discarding chinese names, busy converting, closing down schs wif long chinese traditional backgrd n building brand new schs wif weird names...the list goes on
happy national day -
I can see that you all have a distinct reluctance in being labelled as "part-Malay". Through the course of this thread, I've seen posts claiming that Babas are "bastardised Chinese" because they've adopted certain Malay customs, or that no one wants to be "related to people living in straw huts and 19th century houses".
It is immensely saddening but perhaps not as surprising that 40 years of education has failed to eradicate or has even execerbated racist notions. Peranakans settled here (or in Malacca) in the 15th century, and have a distinct culture and language (hokkien patois?). They have also held on to the traditional Chinese religions, much longer than Singaporean 'chinese' Chinese have.
The "Speak Mandarin Campaign" and the "Second-Language Policy" perhaps dealt a fatal blow to baba identities, as their children must now learn Mandarin instead of Malay or Hokkien. The constant reminder, too, that there are only 4 ethnic groups in Singapore, put pressure on the Peranakans to fit into the Chinese mould.
It is never wrong to adopt another culture's customs and language, especially if you retain your own identity after 500 years of assimilation. Therefore, labelling Peranakans as bastardized Chinese is definitely uncalled for, and is probably a result of a rising Chinese nationalist tide.
More worrying though, is the embarassment at being labeled part-Malay. An indication of failed social policies perhaps. -
that's the biggest crap I've ever heard!Originally posted by Dr Who:In the eyes of the chinese from China, singapore chinese are barbarians trying to pass off as Chinese.
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either you are one of the most ignorant around here or you are one of the worst liars. -
No, it is not wrong to adopt another culture or customs and language, especially if you RETAIN your own IDENTITY after 500 years of assimilation.Originally posted by jonsteadinho:
I can see that you all have a distinct reluctance in being labelled as "part-Malay". Through the course of this thread, I've seen posts claiming that Babas are "bastardised Chinese" because they've adopted certain Malay customs, or that no one wants to be "related to people living in straw huts and 19th century houses". [/quote]
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary and Thesaurus, the meaning of the word 'bastardised' and 'bastard' are as follows :
Main Entry: bas·tard·ize
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&r-"dIz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
1 : to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition : DEBASE
2 : to declare or prove to be a bastard
3 : to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bastardize
From the Merriam-Webster On-line Thesaurus:
Entry Word: bastard
Function: adjective
Text: born to a father and mother who are not married -- see ILLEGITIMATE 1
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus?book=Thesaurus&va=bastard&x=18&y=13
From the description of the words, it is quite clear that a 'Peranakan' has introduced and combined discordant or disparate elements of two cultures, by debasing elements of both cultures - without elevating the respective cultures to any higher plane.
The word 'Peranakan' is similar to the Malay word 'anak-anakan' - which means 'doll; or puppet'.
Although the word 'Peranakan' developed further from this primary term 'anak-anakan' to mean 'native' - it is doubtful if the Malay community will recognise the Chinese as 'natives' like themselves.
It is unfortunate for the 'Peranakans' to have settled down in the South-east Asian theatre, have forgotten its origins, and began to transform the original, so as to end up maintaining only a vague, diluted, and mix-and-patch form of the original Chinese Culture, Language, Religious and Social practises.
Even in the melting pot of USA, each distinct migrant community is proud of their own original ancestory, without corrupting or debasing the original identity of these diverse migrant communities.:
It is more saddening that after 40 years of education, historical facts can become twisted to suit the distorted sense of one's identity, and so readily done to justify the inadequacies, short-comings, and guilt of losing one's original identity and ancestory.
It is immensely saddening but perhaps not as surprising that 40 years of education has failed to eradicate or has even execerbated racist notions. Peranakans settled here (or in Malacca) in the 15th century, and have a distinct culture and language (hokkien patois?). They have also held on to the traditional Chinese religions, much longer than Singaporean 'chinese' Chinese have.
Where is the origin of the 'Peranakans' ?
Is there a specific country called 'Peranakan-Land' - from which the 'Peranakan' race emigrate from, to land only in Malacca - and no where else on this globe ?
Did the 'Peranakans' "held on to the traditional Chinese religions, much longer than Singaporean 'chinese' Chinese have" ?
It will seem that the first group of Chinese to practise Christianity (Catholictism, to be more precise) had come mainly from the group of Chinese who prefer to call themselves as 'Peranakans' - AFTER cutting off their ties from their orignal homeland, and making a clear effort to follow the idyllic cultural and social practises of the local Malay (but not adopting the Islamic faith).
Those 'Peranakans' that continue to follow the original traditional 'Chinese' religious and social practises have put in some effort to follow traditions but failed miserably with the passing of each generation, who became more attracted to Western or European influences and practises.
Although the main features of the Chinese Lunar Calendar is followed, the Georgian Calendar hold sway in the Perankan scheme of things.:
The 'Speak Mandarin Campaign' certainly dealt a fatal blow to many students, who had difficulty in mastering Mandarin, and this Chinese Language Problem is not unique only to the 'Peranakans'.
The "Speak Mandarin Campaign" and the "Second-Language Policy" perhaps dealt a fatal blow to baba identities, as their children must now learn Mandarin instead of Malay or Hokkien. The constant reminder, too, that there are only 4 ethnic groups in Singapore, put pressure on the Peranakans to fit into the Chinese mould.
The 'Second-Language Policy' was further refined to allow students to opt out from Mandarin Language, and to take on the mother tongue as a Second Language.
Although I am no racist, it hurts when one's 'kin' can so foolishly claim that he is no longer a 'kin' - simply because he decide to take on a different identity.Even the English, German, or Swede, who migrated to the USA, will identify themselves as US Citizens, but of English, German, or Swedish origin (respectively).
While the Eurasians are recognised as a Racial Group, can the 'Peranakans' be considered as a RACIAL Group ?
Where is 'Perankan-Land' BEFORE the 'Peranakan' landed in Malacca, so as to justify themselves to be a Racial Group ?
If the Peranakan had migrated from China, which part of China did the 'Peranakans' come from ?
Is there a province called 'Peranakan-zhou' or perhaps 'Peranakian' ?:
It is never wrong to adopt another culture's customs and language, especially if you retain your own identity after 500 years of assimilation. Therefore, labelling Peranakans as bastardized Chinese is definitely uncalled for, and is probably a result of a rising Chinese nationalist tide.
What is the IDENTITY that the 'Perankan' has retained, when a 'Peranakan' can consider to be no longer 'Chinese' ?
If a 'Peranakan' can disclaim the ancestory line that it originate from, is it not accurate to consider such an offspring to be a 'BASTARD', and hence, being ostracised accurately as a 'bastardized Chinese' - at least by the Chinese cousins of this very unfortunate 'Peranakans' who no longer claim to be part of the 'Chinese' family ?
It is not a result of Chinese nationalism, or Singaporean Chinese racism that this response is made to slap the foolish claim that 'Peranakans' are no longer Chinese.
If your line of thought is to be extended to the Indian Community, who have lived in Singapore as the 500 year old 'Peranakans' have lived in Malacca, surely it will be foolish for the Singaporean Indian Community to deny themselves as no longer being Indians ?
[quote]:
More worrying though, is the embarassment at being labeled part-Malay. An indication of failed social policies perhaps. No, it is not failed social policies of the Government, but the failed social education on the part of the parents of the foolish 'Peranakan' offsprings, who have failed miserably to impart the history of the 'Peranakans', their origins, their struggles, their successes, and the original pride of having been a part of the Chinese diaspora.
More embarrassing is the failure of the 'Peranakan' community to be so quick in adopting foreign cultural and social norms, and abandoning traditions, and now even disclaiming their own ancestory lineage of being a Chinese. -
wa... taking apart my argument.
Maybe I haven't read the thread closely, but I am more inclined to think that it is the 'Chinese' Chinese that have been labelling Peranakans as "bastardized" instead of babas themselves saying that they are no longer Chinese. -
It is surprising that the 'Peranakans' have surnames that we are familiar with, and with a large number carrying surnames like - Chan, Lim, and Tan; surprisingly enough, I do not recall any 'Peranakan' with the surname 'bin' Adullah, or Bolkiah, or Mohammed, or Zukifli.Originally posted by jonsteadinho:
wa... taking apart my argument.
Maybe I haven't read the thread closely, but I am more inclined to think that it is the 'Chinese' Chinese that have been labelling Peranakans as "bastardized" instead of babas themselves saying that they are no longer Chinese. [/quote]
No, lah.... no intention to be agressive, but just to be sure that your post is given the respect of being fully addressed.
Perhaps you should read the title of this thread started by Dr Who, which was written quite clearly:We are NOT Chinese... We are Peranakan
and then read the opening post that followed, which is printed in whole as shown below.
It was after several days of this thread developing further, that I decided to put in my two cents worth to correct the skewered views, as on 9 August 2005, at 3:09pm. (see above on this page).
[quote]Originally posted by Dr Who:
In the eyes of the chinese from China, singapore chinese are barbarians trying to pass off as Chinese.
Maybe they are right. We are not Chinese. We are Peranakan-a mix of Chinese and Malay.........remember that when our ancestor came, they married local women.....the children grew up to be Baba/ Nonya......
Studies show that more than 30% of Chinese in Singapore had Baba genes 40 years ago.......today maybe 70% are already of mixed blood. Even Lee Kuan Yew is of mixed blood........ so don't call ourselves Chinese......We are not pure Chinese...... we are Peranakan .........Let's be proud of this mixed heiritage.
'Peranakans' are NOT 'pure' Chinese ?
What is the 'Baba' genes ?
I wonder what will the other 'Peranakans' in this community will say about this DrWho - who is surprising silent after his first opening post ? -
I say, let them deny their identities and heritage all they want. Perhaps after a long time they feel distinct from the mainland Chinese.
Afrikaners of South Africa were descended from 17th century dutch and speak afrikaans, a version of the dutch language. Yet, they feel distinct from the netherlands and its culture. (they identify as white though)
So peranakans may not be exactly Chinese, as Drwho pointed out. Even then, to deny all linkages with Chinese culture, or to classify themselves entirely as a seperate race, would be a grave mistake. -
Pointing fingers is not my intention here, but the Chinese immigrants in the old days looked down on the Peranakans who could not speak Mandarin in the course of daily interaction, e.g. when they shopped at the formers' stores. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why many Peranakan families enrolled their children in English mission schools.Originally posted by Atobe:More embarrassing is the failure of the 'Peranakan' community to be so quick in adopting foreign cultural and social norms, and abandoning traditions, and now even disclaiming their own ancestory lineage of being a Chinese. -
And many of these children grew up to be Catholic. Other Chinese dialect groups became Protestant (many Hakkas, even those on the Mainland, embraced Methodism) or stuck to Taoism.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Pointing fingers is not my intention here, but the Chinese immigrants in the old days looked down on the Peranakans who could not speak Mandarin in the course of daily interaction, e.g. when they shopped at the formers' stores. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why many Peranakan families enrolled their children in English mission schools. -
its disgraceful not to know your own mother tongue..even the white people look down on you.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Pointing fingers is not my intention here, but the Chinese immigrants in the old days looked down on the Peranakans who could not speak Mandarin in the course of daily interaction, e.g. when they shopped at the formers' stores. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why many Peranakan families enrolled their children in English mission schools.