We are NOT Chinese....We are Peranakan
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You can say the Baba Malay patois became our mother tongue. There were a few centuries in it, aye? Our ancestors adopted the language of the locals, and then taught it to their children (instead of Mandarin) before the Chinese immigrants came en masse.Originally posted by vito_corleone:its disgraceful not to know your own mother tongue..even the white people look down on you.
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Quite true. The "Speak Mandarin" campaign virtually destroyed this aspect of the unique Peranakan culture.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:You can say the Baba Malay patois became our mother tongue. There were a few centuries in it, aye? -
Yes, jonsteadinho..... Afrikaners are 'white South Africans of predominantly Calvinist Dutch, German, French Huguenot, Friesian and Wallon descent; all of them being religious refugees having migrated Europe and settled in South African during the mid-17th Century to the late 18th Century.
They are commonly known as the 'Boer' - which means 'farmer' in Afrikaans.
These Afrikaners have also mischeviously considered themselves to be the 'White Tribe' of Africa, and adopted a racist supremacy ideology to dominate over the native Africans.
With Africa being a long distance away, and the only means of communication is by sail boats, these European migrants soon develop a language called Afrikaan - which is a West Germanic language.
This language was originally a dialect developed among the Afrikaner Protestant settles and the indentured or slave workforce brought to South Africa.
However, these Afrikaners never disclaim their original Dutch, French Huguenots, Friesian and Wallon ancestry, and some can even proudly trace their family lineage back to some famous European names.
In the local Perankan scenario, the Chinese that came over from China, are largely the merchants, laborers and sailors - all of whom took a chance to seek fame and fortune.
Many of these early Chinese prefer to settle in this region, with some taking on native girls as mistresses - having left their wives in China; and eventually imbued the local native tastes and cultures without too much fuss.
The Chinese migrants easily picked up the local market Malay language, and added colorful Malay phrases into the various Chinese dialects - (in the same manner that SINGLISH is spoken as a 'Bastardised form of English).
Did the local Chinese merchants of those period look down on the Peranakan, as Kuali Baba had claimed ?
Will any trader or merchant even bother about someone else's private life, if money can be made from that person ?
Not everyone is born with the same level of intelligence and ability, variety adds to the spice of Life.
If Dr Who's attempt to start this thread is merely an innocent attempt to add variety and spice in this sgForum, it has serve its purpose to shake the ground.
Unfortunately, if his declared position is taken as fact, then it is mischeviously misleading, and reflect the ultimate in foolishness and stupidity in order to deny one's own race and ancestorial lineage. -
I started this thread as a call for help and understanding..........that we as a people will soon be lost in a greater cultural group known as 'Chinese'. I readily admit we are Chinese, but I am prepared also to recognise the fact that we have native genes........it seems many people shy away from the fact that their ancestors were copulating with native girls and that these girls gave birth to our grandmothers and grandfathers.
I attach no value judgements to the behaviour of our ancestors. It is my hope that younger Chinese Singaporeans recognise that they have native mitochrondrial matter in their genes.... and accept that they are different from first generation migrant Chinese.
In short, I urge all to examine who they really are, and not claim that they are"pure Chinese"..............we are sinicised children of mixed ancestry.......except for those who can truely say that both their parents came direct from China. -
You started out this thread by making following claim:Originally posted by Dr Who:I started this thread as a call for help and understanding..
"In the eyes of the chinese from China, singapore chinese are barbarians trying to pass off as Chinese. "
Understanding you say ? Pls don't kid yourself -
no matter what you say chinese blood still flows in your veins.Originally posted by Dr Who:I started this thread as a call for help and understanding..........that we as a people will soon be lost in a greater cultural group known as 'Chinese'. I readily admit we are Chinese, but I am prepared also to recognise the fact that we have native genes........it seems many people shy away from the fact that their ancestors were copulating with native girls and that these girls gave birth to our grandmothers and grandfathers.
I attach no value judgements to the behaviour of our ancestors. It is my hope that younger Chinese Singaporeans recognise that they have native mitochrondrial matter in their genes.... and accept that they are different from first generation migrant Chinese.
In short, I urge all to examine who they really are, and not claim that they are"pure Chinese"..............we are sinicised children of mixed ancestry.......except for those who can truely say that both their parents came direct from China. i am really pure chinese my grandparents only came here after the war. stop trying to deny your roots and come up with all sorts of excuses you're just making a fool out of yourself -
Genes are complex molecular structure of cell formations.Originally posted by Dr Who:
I started this thread as a call for help and understanding..........that we as a people will soon be lost in a greater cultural group known as 'Chinese'. I readily admit we are Chinese, but I am prepared also to recognise the fact that we have native genes........it seems many people shy away from the fact that their ancestors were copulating with native girls and that these girls gave birth to our grandmothers and grandfathers. [/quote]" We are NOT Chinese....We are PERANAKAN "
That was the heading of your thread, which is not exactly 'a call for help and understanding....'
How many Chinese from Mainland China, after settling in Southeast Asia, had actually sown their seeds amongst the 'native' women, or had even permanently taken them as mistresses ?
Amongst the early Chinese migrants that sailed from Mainland China to Southeast Asia, some had also brought their wives, while some migrants were female peasants - (the 'Red Head' Samsui Women).
Not all Chinese males needed the comfort of native women.
In all probability only a small number had married local native women, as these men could not afford the dowry to marry Chinese women; or that these small number of Chinese laborers had no funds to make frequent trips back and forth - between China and Southeast Asia.
The number of Peranakan, who bear part of the genes of the natives, is almost insignificant within the vast Chinese migrant community.
The number of Peranakan - who bear any native genes - can be compared to those few uneven pebbles on the vast sandy beach.
Furthermore, not all Peranakans are the offsprings of the marriage between a Chinese and a Native, some are 'pure' Chinese - who have settled in Southeast Asia, and had decided to adopt the idyllic life of the natives.
Some Peranakans had simply switch cultures and social values only, and did not take any native female as partners.:
I attach no value judgements to the behaviour of our ancestors. It is my hope that younger Chinese Singaporeans recognise that they have native mitochrondrial matter in their genes.... and accept that they are different from first generation migrant Chinese.
Cells do not merely consist of 'MITOCHONDRION' but also 'CHLOROPLAST' - where both combine to form the powerhouse of the cell.
Can the gene of ONE native female dilute the gene of a Chinese male, which has been developed through the centuries of the Chinese DNA ?
Then again, how many in the Peranakan community has the gene of a native female introduced ONCE in the family lineage ?
Further dilution of the gene can only happen, when more such intermarriages occur through the generations that follow, if not, how can the original genes be affected ?
[quote]:
In short, I urge all to examine who they really are, and not claim that they are"pure Chinese"..............we are sinicised children of mixed ancestry.......except for those who can truely say that both their parents came direct from China. In this 21st Century, most Chinese in Southeast Asia are probably the fourth and fifth generation since the arrival of the first Chinese migrant to this region.
No Southeast Asian Chinese can dare claim to be a 'pure' Chinese - even amongst those who are Chinese educated.
Is there a need to be 'PURE' ?
Is it not sufficient for one to remember our uniqueness of being an Overseas Chinese, with ancestory lineage to ancient China, and to be true to our cultural-social etiquette and practises ?
Was there any demand from any sector of the Chinese community for Chinese in Southeast Asia to be 'PURE' ?
Is this thread started as a result of personal inadequacies and insecurity to be a 'Peranakan' - let alone to be a 'CHINESE' whether 'pure' or otherwise ?
Unfortunately for Dr Who, he should have read Dr M Mahatir's book - 'The Malay Dilemma' - in which he had written that the Malay race had its roots in Yunnan, China !!!
Does the gene of the native female then dilute, or reinforce, the Chinese gene of the Chinese migrant who settled in Southeast Asia, and are called by the natives as 'PERANAKAN' ? -
This thread give me a thought... What is really 'pure' Chinese
Personally I don't think that even most of the chinese from China are so call 'pure' chinese.
Qing dynasty (Man chow ren) invaded Ming dynasty (Han Ren)... Are Manchurian considered as chinese at that time?
(Not sure)- but I believe since thousand years ago, it's been really very difficuit to idenfily the "pure" chinese. After are so many wars in China. Even Genghis khan who invaded whole area of China is not a chinese. Some scientists even claimed that 'native' koreans & Japaneses also have gene branched out from the chinese (read it some where before).
So What is 'han ren' and 'hwa ren' and the difference, anyone?
What I best understand and can recall is 'han ren' = chinese & ' hwa ren' = people who speak mandarin... of coz not any1 who speak mandarin is a chinese.
I believe the word 'chinese' is a generalise description of the present people of China. To others, anyone with yellow skin from china is a chinese, which may not be true. Laslty my guess is that the real 'PURE' chinese, thousand years ago are called 'han ren', these so call 'pure' chinese or 'han ren' is one of the many group of people living in China. When Qin dynasty invaded and untied China. He makes mandarin a national language for China, so all people & living there speak mandarin is call 'hwa ren'. (Do feel free to correct me if I am wrong) 
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Man•chu \"man-(')chu, man-"\ noun pl Manchu or Manchus (1697)
1: a member of an indigenous (native) people of Manchuria who conquered China and established a dynasty there in 1644
2: the Tungusic language of the Manchu people Manchu
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basically there are many ethnic groups within the chinese community: mainly the Han or mandrins, the dominant group on china. reccent studies have shown that the hokkiens actually belong to a group called the "yue" who have been assimilated into han culture when the han people took over their land. the cantonese also fall under the "yue" peoples. thats why they resemle the taiwanese and hong kongers more than the mainland chinese(whom by themselves compromise of millions of different peoples). generally chinese from the southern regions tend to be shorter and smaller built with more roundish facial features and their complexion gets darker as they spread southward whereas the northern chinese which includes the han are taller and nigger built, some posessing indo-european features due to the intermingling between them and the indo european tribes that migrated to the north of china. notice how some ancient chinese paintings and potraits feature taller and bigger built men with higher nose bridges?
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[quote]Originally posted by Kohi:
This thread give me a thought... What is really 'pure' Chinese
Personally I don't think that even most of the chinese from China are so call 'pure' chinese.
Qing dynasty (Man chow ren) invaded Ming dynasty (Han Ren)... Are Manchurian considered as chinese at that time?
(Not sure)- but I believe since thousand years ago, it's been really very difficuit to idenfily the "pure" chinese. After are so many wars in China. Even Genghis khan who invaded whole area of China is not a chinese. Some scientists even claimed that 'native' koreans & Japaneses also have gene branched out from the chinese (read it some where before).
So What is 'han ren' and 'hwa ren' and the difference, anyone?
What I best understand and can recall is 'han ren' = chinese & ' hwa ren' = people who speak mandarin... of coz not any1 who speak mandarin is a chinese.
I believe the word 'chinese' is a generalise description of the present people of China. To others, anyone with yellow skin from china is a chinese, which may not be true. Laslty my guess is that the real 'PURE' chinese, thousand years ago are called 'han ren', these so call 'pure' chinese or 'han ren' is one of the many group of people living in China. When Qin dynasty invaded and untied China. He makes mandarin a national language for China, so all people & living there speak mandarin is call 'hwa ren'. (Do feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
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Man•chu \"man-(')chu, man-"\ noun pl Manchu or Manchus (1697)
1: a member of an indigenous (native) people of Manchuria who conquered China and established a dynasty there in 1644
2: the Tungusic language of the Manchu people Manchu
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generally the han people form the largest ethnic group in china and are located around the northern-central regions of china..thats why most dynasties excluding the yuan and qing originated around the north-central regions around beijing/tianjin region and then spread either northward,westward or sothwards. ] -
anyone who's yellow faced and practises chinese culture qualifies as a chinese.
Master Confucius said it best 2000 years ago: 夷入夏为夏，夏入夷为夷
(is there anyway to type chinese here?) -
lets not get into genetics: it reminds me of Hitler and his herrenvolk (master race). Genes may be "diluted" (politically incorrect term), and one may be less of a person of Han or Indo-Aryan construct. Yet, in this case, it is more appropriate to talk about Peranakans being an ethnic group and not a race. refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race Ethnicity is not made up by genes alone. it combines customs, traditions, language, and the delicate idea of ethnic consciousness.
Peranakans customs have evolved through 500 years of interaction, and in some cases intermarriage. Yet, they have not lost the idea that they were essentially different from the Malays around them. Similarly, under pressure to adopt the Singaporean "Chinese" identity (as defined by the govt), they have not lost the awareness that they are indeed different (at least to some extent) from the cantonese and mandarin speaking people around them.
It is thus understandable that many Peranakans are disaffected with the constant accusations that they are "bastardized" Chinese. This displeasure is due less to the frustration at not being fully Chinese than to the lack of understanding shown by others on their ethnicity.
Therefore, DrWho has made a pertinent point, albeit not clearly, that Singapore Chinese must respect their differences. I do not believe, as he clarified later, that he is denying that he is totally not Chinese.
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nederlander?
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Hmm, I got a feeling that flat noses are a Cantonese thing after reading your post.Originally posted by vito_corleone:basically there are many ethnic groups within the chinese community: mainly the Han or mandrins, the dominant group on china. reccent studies have shown that the hokkiens actually belong to a group called the "yue" who have been assimilated into han culture when the han people took over their land. the cantonese also fall under the "yue" peoples. thats why they resemle the taiwanese and hong kongers more than the mainland chinese(whom by themselves compromise of millions of different peoples). generally chinese from the southern regions tend to be shorter and smaller built with more roundish facial features and their complexion gets darker as they spread southward whereas the northern chinese which includes the han are taller and nigger built, some posessing indo-european features due to the intermingling between them and the indo european tribes that migrated to the north of china. notice how some ancient chinese paintings and potraits feature taller and bigger built men with higher nose bridges? 
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im half cantonese and i dont have a flat nose.Originally posted by iveco:Hmm, I got a feeling that flat noses are a Cantonese thing after reading your post.
did you know bruce lee is actually a eurasian? his mother was german-chinese. -
Well, Katie Leung's nose is flat as a runway. Mine's almost there. Thank God for my mother's Fujian (min-nan) blood.Originally posted by vito_corleone:im half cantonese and i dont have a flat nose.
did you know bruce lee is actually a eurasian? his mother was german-chinese. -
The hokkiens ( or Min-yue ) people were so difficult to control and sinicise that one Han dynasty emperor ( Han Wu-ti ?) resorted to Ethnic cleansing.........by deporting them to Central China......
So the Hokkiens today are a mix of Min YUE people and Han troops.....so you can spot a Hokkien face sometimes.......esp gals! -
Originally posted by jonsteadinho:
lets not get into genetics: it reminds me of Hitler and his herrenvolk (master race). Genes may be "diluted" (politically incorrect term), and one may be less of a person of Han or Indo-Aryan construct. Yet, in this case, it is more appropriate to talk about Peranakans being an ethnic group and not a race. refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race Ethnicity is not made up by genes alone. it combines customs, traditions, language, and the delicate idea of ethnic consciousness.
Following your reference at wikipedia.org - the given clarification is as follows:
A race is a population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely used racial categories developed based on visible traits (especially skin color and facial features). Some cultures have categories linked to socioeconomic status. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, vary by culture and time, and are often controversial due to their impact on social identity hence identity politics.
Is there any differences in the visible traits of a Peranakan from that of a Chinese ?
Is there any differences in the cultural and social practises of a Peranakan from that of a Chinese - despite somewhat dilution and mix-patch approach in the Peranakan practising the original form ?:
Peranakans customs have evolved through 500 years of interaction, and in some cases intermarriage. Yet, they have not lost the idea that they were essentially different from the Malays around them. Similarly, under pressure to adopt the Singaporean "Chinese" identity (as defined by the govt), they have not lost the awareness that they are indeed different (at least to some extent) from the cantonese and mandarin speaking people around them.
How different are the Peranakans from the rest of the Cantonese, Hokkien, Teochew, Hakka, Hainanese and Mandarin speaking people around ?
Do the Peranakans carry family names that are Chinese, or Malay, or Indian, or that of some European's ?
Why should there be any grief, or wonder, or excitement over the feeling of being different within one's own Race, Society or Community ?
Is this not a common phenomena - for anyone to feel different within the family, let alone the extended family of one's own dialect or racial group ?:
It is thus understandable that many Peranakans are disaffected with the constant accusations that they are "bastardized" Chinese. This displeasure is due less to the frustration at not being fully Chinese than to the lack of understanding shown by others on their ethnicity.
Was there any lack of understanding shown by the larger Chinese Community towards the Peranakans as a different ethnic entity ?
Do the Peranakans qualify to be from a different ethnic entitiy ?:
Therefore, DrWho has made a pertinent point, albeit not clearly, that Singapore Chinese must respect their differences. I do not believe, as he clarified later, that he is denying that he is totally not Chinese.
Did Dr Who deny to be totally NOT Chinese, or did he not - by the headline of this thread that he created ?
We are NOT Chinese.... We are Peranakans
How did Dr Who come to the conclusion that Singaporean Chinese DO NOT respect the differences between the Peranakans and the Chinese - when those in the Chinese community have to struggle to make ends meet, and have also experienced the marriage of the various dialect groups with those in the Peranakan community ? -
sometimes, i cant stand Sporean Chinese coz they mix a lot esp if they are many generation here, or have pernakan blood. those who grandparents born in china, still ok, as they retain their chinese look. but if they are say 5-6 generation already in Spore, chances are they are quite mixed and it shows in their face. Many local celebrites are example and it is very easy to tell the difference from their faces. u also notice, a fair lot of sporean chinese on th street dont really have that very Chinese look that are common in China, Taiwan (a lesser extent) and HK (oso lesser extent).
Southern Chinese, esp from coastal provinces look kinda different. A bit of Vietnamese, Thai, Filipino and China's minority races like Yao and Miao. Even as a Shanghainese, i can tell who is who apart easily. -
Dr Who, it seems that it's the way you put forward this idea or"knowledge" of yours have gotten you negative responses. You seem to be assuming that ALL Singaporean Chinese are peranakan, which is obviously untrue. Get your facts straight, before making such an assumption.
I am a pure Chinese, not Peranakan.