The Origin of your Surname
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Was Jiang Ziya one of their members?Originally posted by Tuatau:The surname Xu with the water radical hails from the Jiang (character representing ginger) clan, a major clan of powerful families in the Shang Dynasty. The clan claimed to have descended from Shennong ("Divine Farmer" ), also known as the Yan Emperor, a legendary emperor in Chinese mythology. Shennong was much revered because he taught people the practices of agriculture, which was at that time a highly-regarded aspect of the society. When the Jiang clan helped King Wu (Zhou Wuwang) overthrow the Shang Dynasty, Wu rewarded them with the fertile state of Xu. After Xu was conquered by the state of Chu during the Warring States period, descendants of the Jiang clan changed their surname to Xu. -
The surname Luo (character representing net) could have originated from the Yun (with the female radical) clan, which claimed descent from Zhurong, another legendary emperor in Chinese mythology. Zhurong was also known as the Fire god in some tales. The Yun clan was based in the state of Luo during the Zhou Dynasty, and the clan descendants adopted the surname of Luo when their homeland was annexed by the state of Chu during the Spring and Autumn period.
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Originally posted by DriftingGuy:
Peng? I can't recall any common Chinese surname Peng.
How about the following surnames?
Loh or luo2; Peng; Ou yang; Zhu1; Sun1
Is it written with "ma" (character for horse)? -
The double-character surname Ouyang was believed to have originated from Yu the Great who managed to control the floods during the rule of legendary emperor Shun. Yu's descendants were based in the state of Yue during the Zhou Dynasty and when Yue was annexed by the state of Chu in the Warring States period, the king of Yue was bestowed a title in the Mount Ouyang region, and the descendants subsequently took up the surname of Ouyang.
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The origin of surname Zhu (same as that of the Ming Dynasty's founding emperor) came from the Cao clan which claimed to be descendants of the legendary emperor Zhuanxu. History has it that King Wu (Zhou Wuwang) had bestowed the states of Cao and Zhu (with the ear radical) to two factions of the clan in the Zhou Dynasty. During the Warring States period, the weak state of Zhu was crushed by a much stronger state of Chu and the surviving clan members changed their surname to Zhu (without the ear radical).
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How about 'Hu'?
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The third surname on the list, Sun is one of the most popular surnames throughout the entire history of China. One source comes from King Wu's (Zhou Wuwang) half-brother in the Zhou Dynasty whose descendant adopted the style name (zi) of his grandfather -- Sun as his surname. Another comes from the descendants of honest official Bi Gan who was also a prince by lineage in the Shang Dynasty. Bi was killed by King Zhou (Shang Zhouwang) and his clan members, fearing persecution, fled and were scattered throughout the different states. To conceal their identities from enemies while reminding themselves of their common royal lineage, they all agreed to change their surnames to Sun (character meaning grandchild).
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Shi (character representing to give or apply) was the name of a state in the first Chinese dynasty -- Xia Dynasty founded by legendary emperor Yu the Great when he ascended his predecessor Shun's throne. When the dynasty was succeeded by the Shang Dynasty and the state of Shi was no more, the citizens adopted the surname of Shi.
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Originally posted by browniebaobao:
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know whether "Oh" was Ou or Hu in Chinese.
How about 'Hu'?
Hu was the surname of Hu Gongman, a Zhou Dynasty noble claiming descent from legendary emperor Shun. He belonged to a clan that ruled the state of Chen (as mentioned earlier) before it was annexed by the state of Chu. While most surviving clan members adopted the surname of Chen, there were some who chose to stick with their original surname Hu instead. -
Originally posted by iveco:
It would appear so, as Jiang played an instrumental role as advisor to King Wu (Zhou Wuwang) when the latter replaced King Zhou (Shang Zhouwang) to form a new dynasty. However, the Jiang clan supporting the rebellion was huge and Jiang Ziya was known to be an aloof genius, so it is not confirmed if the two were in any way related. My knowledge in these details is limited, maybe someone else could have come across this in other Chinese history books?
Was Jiang Ziya one of their members? -
Originally posted by Tuatau:Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know whether "Oh" was Ou or Hu in Chinese.
Hu was the surname of Hu Gongman, a Zhou Dynasty noble claiming descent from legendary emperor Shun. He belonged to a clan that ruled the state of Chen (as mentioned earlier) before it was annexed by the state of Chu. While most surviving clan members adopted the surname of Chen, there were some who chose to stick with their original surname Hu instead.
thanks Tuatau...
so can I say that Chen and Hu are related? -
Originally posted by browniebaobao:
They probably were, more than three thousand years ago.
so can I say that Chen and Hu are related?
In fact, with new nation names coming up and many clans and families changing surnames here and there during those turbulent times, I wouldn't be surprised if the ancestors of people with different surnames today were somehow related then. -
Originally posted by Tuatau:They probably were, more than three thousand years ago.
In fact, with new nation names coming up and many clans and families changing surnames here and there during those turbulent times, I wouldn't be surprised if the ancestors of people with different surnames today were somehow related then.
so people say pple with same surname cannot get married...considered crap la hor? since pple with diff surname might be from same clan or family in the past.. -
Originally posted by browniebaobao:
Thought this was coming, that's why added "more than three thousand years ago".
so people say pple with same surname cannot get married...considered crap la hor? since pple with diff surname might be from same clan or family in the past..
With that time frame in mind, it becomes rather pointless to argue whether people with different surnames are actually related or not because there really isn't any way we could trace the bloodline for evidence, is there?
However, from a genetic standpoint, inbreeding really isn't good for the offspring. So if it can be avoided, we should try to avoid it if we could help it, shouldn't we? -
I did read somewhere that Lin can be traced back to the Qin dynasty where it was a Princely title.
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ya right.Originally posted by Tuatau:Thought this was coming, that's why added "more than three thousand years ago".
With that time frame in mind, it becomes rather pointless to argue whether people with different surnames are actually related or not because there really isn't any way we could trace the bloodline for evidence, is there?
However, from a genetic standpoint, inbreeding really isn't good for the offspring. So if it can be avoided, we should try to avoid it if we could help it, shouldn't we? -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
There are multiple origins for most surnames, and Bi Gan's son was but one for the surname Lin. According to Chinese genealogical records, there are two other main origins, one from King Ping's (Zhou Pingwang) second son Lin Kai born of a concubine in the Eastern Zhou Dynasty, another from a minority Xianbei tribe whose surnames were summarily changed during one nation-wide surname-changing campaign initiated by King Xiaowen (Xiaowen Di) in the Northern Wei Dynasty.
I did read somewhere that Lin can be traced back to the Qin dynasty where it was a Princely title.
During the Warring States period, Lin Gao from Bi Gan's lineage served as the Premier for the state of Zhao. He had nine sons who served the Zhao king faithfully, and the king bestowed upon Lin's sons the title of "The Nine Dragons". That's about the closest I could find about the Lin's in the Qin Dynasty. It could be a princely title at that time, but I am not able to verify that information from my sources. -
So it means that if you are a LIM/LIN, your ancestors could be from a minority tribal group...........non chinese/mixed...?
As the y-chromosome is transmitted from the sperm, it means that the original y-chromosome came from the first guy with the same surname? Can a study of genetics/DNA give a bearing to your ancestry?
By the way, I heard that LIU/LAU could be from the Hsiong-Nu babarians who became blood brothers with the royal LIU clan......your views please?.. -
Originally posted by Dr Who:
It is only a possibility that a person with the surname of Lin could have descended from the Xianbei minority tribe. Non-Chinese? I don't understand. I know a Miao girl from Guizhou who, when dressed in modern clothes, looked very much like any other girl from China and she holds a Chinese passport.
So it means that if you are a LIM/LIN, your ancestors could be from a minority tribal group...........non chinese/mixed...?
As the y-chromosome is transmitted from the sperm, it means that the original y-chromosome came from the first guy with the same surname? Can a study of genetics/DNA give a bearing to your ancestry?
By the way, I heard that LIU/LAU could be from the Hsiong-Nu babarians who became blood brothers with the royal LIU clan......your views please?..
Genetics could help trace our ancestry, but to a limited extent. Our surnames are not tied to our genes and surnames can be easily changed. We shouldn't be too surprised if our DNA's do not match with those of our first ancestors with the same surnames, that is, provided their more-than-three-thousand-year-old DNA's could be obtained.
In order to cement the ties between the Han's and the Hsiong-Nu (Xiongnu) tribe, the first Han Dynasty emperor Liu Bang married off an imperial princess to the tribe ruler. According to the Hsiong-Nu custom, children of noble birth follow the surname of their mothers, so the leading tribe clan changed their surname to Liu after that. That was one of the origins for Liu. -
Non-chinese here refers to other tribes outside of the Han tribe.
I think up till now, Chinese identity documents still have a tribal classification, eg Han, Manchu, Mongol, korean, Hui, etc. Except for Muslim tribes, all others have more or less been absorbed into the mainstream.....agree? -
Originally posted by Dr Who:
Non-Han's you mean. Of course after three thousand years, it is pretty hard not only for other tribes not to be absorbed to a certain extent into the mainstream, but also for the Han tribe to claim ancestral purity. We couldn't tell what our forefathers did throughout those three thousand years, could we?
Non-chinese here refers to other tribes outside of the Han tribe.
I think up till now, Chinese identity documents still have a tribal classification, eg Han, Manchu, Mongol, korean, Hui, etc. Except for Muslim tribes, all others have more or less been absorbed into the mainstream.....agree?
There might have been a tribal classification, though I didn't ask to look at the Miao girl's passport. She could misunderstand I was trying to find out her age, and that wouldn't have been very polite. -
Tautau,
Do you have any info why northerners usually refer to themselves as Han ren and the southerners, ie Cantonese and Hokkiens, as Tang ren?
I have a theory about it but would be interested to know if there are some published research; thks. -
what about Huang2 (yellow in chi)
and zhang (1), zhang(1) as in zhang(1) fei(1) in
romance of three kingdoms..... -
Originally posted by suntze:
No problem. Glad to help a fellow enthusiast in Chinese history.
Do you have any info why northerners usually refer to themselves as Han ren and the southerners, ie Cantonese and Hokkiens, as Tang ren?
For the uninitiated, the reason why the Chinese race usually refer to themselves as descendants of "Han" or "Tang" was because the Han and Tang Dynasties were two of the most glorious periods in Chinese history when the country of the Central Plains or China was strong, powerful, abundant, and vibrant with culture.
"Nan Tang Bei Han"... If my memory served me right, this distinction originated during the dying years of the Tang Dynasty when the northern region of China was actually divided among several autonomous tribe nations like Liao, Xixia and Jin. (Readers of Jin Yong's pugilistic novels should be familiar with these tribe nations.)
One remarkable characteristic of the Chinese culture was that the roots were so deep and the values were so strong that the culture was able to exercise considerable amount of influence on the foreign tribal nations that occupied the land. These nations took to the Han language, rites and government structure naturally during their occupation of the northern regions, and the citizens there referred to themselves as "Han ren (citizens)".
On the other hand, most citizens claiming Han roots (though actually the Han bloodline had already been pretty much corrupted by that time) moved with the capital to the south, and called themselves "Tang ren (citizens)" to differentiate themselves from the Han citizens of the tribe nations up north. Hence the distinction was born, but it has slowly been blurred as the centuries rolled by through the subsequent dynasties.
An interesting point of noteworthy mention is that many southern citizens, especially those in the Guangdong and Fujian provinces, still retain the tradition of calling themselves "Tang ren". At the end of the Qing Dynasty when many of these citizens emigrated to foreign countries and established communal enclaves there, they named these Chinatown enclaves as "Tang ren jie (street)" or "Tang cheng (city)".
Anyway, not sure if this information was what you had in mind, and I can't remember the source to verify the accuracy (and cover my own ass). But you may wish to refer to this article on Han origins published on Zaobao online forum last October (it does not talk much on the distinction between Tang and Han, but there was some cursory mention in there):
http://www.zaobao.com/special/china/general/letter161004a.html
Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss anything else on Chinese history. -
Huang (representing yellow), another popular surname in Chinese history, shared similar origins with the surname Qin in the Ying clan. As mentioned for surname Qin, the Ying clan's origin could be traced to a noble who served the legendary emperor Shun. A faction of the Ying clan founded the state of Huang when King Wu (Zhou Wuwang) ascended the throne in the early years of the Zhou Dynasty. When the king of Huang offended the powerful state of Chu by refusing to offer tributes, Chu attacked and annexed Huang, and the surviving clan members subsequently adopted the surname of Huang.