Benedict condemns gay marriages.
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I said,Originally posted by vito_corleone:do you dare say it will definately happen?
If a man and a woman get married, they would probably end up having sex.
'Would probably' is not the same as 'would'. If it were the same, I wouldn't add the word 'probably' in.
If two MEN get married, can you say that the same thing won't happen?
What? Are you so caught up in Church bashing that you mangled your magnificient command of English? -
this is the first time i've come across such a distinction between the 2 terms.. hence, it must have come from you.. hmm.. u represent THE CHURCH?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Which is why the Church makes a distinction between the words 'homosexual' and 'gay'. 'Homosexual' is referring to one who has attractions to the same sex, and we define 'gay' as one who has gay sex.
Of course, to all you darling secularists here, the following paragraph I just wrote must be hogwash to you people. -
[quote]Originally posted by plo30360:
are you SURE ALL catholic practices are from the scriptures? the Bible never mentioned anything about mere mortals being given the right to be the so called representative of Christ on earth, Christ doesnt need representatives, Christ is God and God holds power over all. the bible spoke against men in robes parading about and people bowing to them as i quoted in my above posts, arent you guys defying the Word of God by having such men? the Bible never spoke of mary being given the right to intercede for men..aren't you also defying the Bible? -
do you dare deny the millions who were butchered? historical records have shown and proven them time and time again to be true. perhaps it is you who needs to be re-educated. may God have mercy on your misled soulsOriginally posted by plo30360: How many times have heard this rubbish about the Catholic church being roman paganism, reading Jack Chick's tracts haven't you? -
oh really? why do fanatics bow and revere statues of her?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:I don't worship Mary.
'You leave your brains outside the church.' Oooh, did you come up with that one? i wish i came up with that term but sadly someone else beat me to it. you say again you don't worship mary? did i hear correctly? let me quote your prayers " hail mary full of grace the Lord is with you blessed are you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus, HOLY mary MOTHER OF GOD...."
blasphemy! God is God, there is no "holy mother" because God is genderless and the Creater. isn't that very prayer worship? once again you said practices followed scriptures, has the Bible ever mentioned Mary being God's mother" or that you should hail her as a "holy" person? Nope. -
http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,67776,00.html
The Electric New Paper :
Homosexuality against biblical teachings
LOVE the sinner but not the sin - this seems to be the official stand of the Christian community on homosexuality.
14 July 2004
LOVE the sinner but not the sin - this seems to be the official stand of the Christian community on homosexuality.
The New Paper yesterday approached the mainstream National Council of Churches of Singapore to comment on the Free Community Church.
Its response was to fax across a statement issued last year which said that homosexual acts are clearly against the teachings of the Bible.
But the council - which represents Anglicans, Methodists and Presbyterians, among others - added that Christians shouldn't reject gay people or be homophobic and despise them.
Gays should be treated 'no less as persons of worth and dignity'.
The council, however, remained firmly against any action that might promote a gay lifestyle.
It urged the Government to continue to outlaw homosexual acts, and to retain the policy of not allowing the registration of gay societies and clubs, and the policy of not allowing the promotion of a homosexual lifestyle.
This statement was issued following some unhappiness in the community after Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong revealed last year that the Government no longer had qualms about recruiting gays into the civil service.
For Catholics, the Vatican website says the Bible condemns homosexual acts as a 'serious depravity'. But it adds gays 'must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity'.
Dr John Hui, Master of the Catholic Medical Guild, told The New Paper in an e-mail reply yesterday: '...while homosexual acts are intrinsically wrong and not to be condoned, those with homosexual tendencies must be treated with respect, love, compassion and sensitivity, like any other human being.'
He added that as far as he knew no-one has been expelled from the Catholic Church for being gay. -
Ah.. the 2 paragraphs contradicts..Originally posted by Honeybunz:[url]
It urged the Government to continue to outlaw homosexual acts, and to retain the policy of not allowing the registration of gay societies and clubs, and the policy of not allowing the promotion of a homosexual lifestyle.
Dr John Hui, Master of the Catholic Medical Guild, told The New Paper in an e-mail reply yesterday: '...while homosexual acts are intrinsically wrong and not to be condoned, those with homosexual tendencies must be treated with respect, love, compassion and sensitivity, like any other human being.'
how to treat homosexuals like any other human being if you remove the rights of homosexual acts, the rights to register as a society (non-sexual, but to help gays understand themselves), and to remove all gay materials from the media?
Hypocrite?
The term "homosexual tendencies" imply a learnt behaviour. Again, on what basis did he arrive at this conclusion? No. It was just assumed, as always.
And from these 2 paragraphs, it seems to imply that the local churches accept homosexuals but condoned homosexual acts, ah.. then again, if homosexuals do not practice homosexual acts, are they called homosexuals?
Most churches here believe in "faith healing".. if u believe in god, you can be converted back to straights.. but then, there are too many failed cases.. the need to set up a gay church is a solid proof that there are many gay christians who can't change themselves..
And if homosexuals cannot change their acts, should they continue to receive discrimination? To be criminalised? Since homosexual acts are not allowed legally? How to treat homosexuals with respect if there are so much discrimination?
HYPOCRITE! -
the attitude some of you here are showing towards homosexuality somehow contradicts the statements in which some leaders claim "homosexuals should be treated with dignity and respect"
-
Originally posted by earthlings73:
i fully agree with that statement.
[b]HYPOCRITE![/b] if they do not want to recieve salvation or repent whatsoever let them be. why bash and condemn them? this is a free world and they as a community deserve as much rights as we do. -
Yes all Catholic Tradition is from Scripture. Mere mortals being the reprsentative of Christ(God) on earth was given by Christ Himself, I'm sure since you read your Bible you know which part(Both OT and NT).
are you SURE ALL catholic practices are from the scriptures? the Bible never mentioned anything about mere mortals being given the right to be the so called representative of Christ on earth, Christ doesnt need representatives, Christ is God and God holds power over all. the bible spoke against men in robes parading about and people bowing to them as i quoted in my above posts, arent you guys defying the Word of God by having such men? the Bible never spoke of mary being given the right to intercede for men..aren't you also defying the Bible?
As for Mary intercede as well as the saints, same thing.
Yes, I'll deny millions were butchered.Yes people were buthcered not millions. And obviously your historical records you are using are false. And one more thing : With regards to inquistion,crusades, child molestation Catholics weren't the only ones doing it. Maybe instead of worrying about God having mercy on souls, you should be worried of finding out the truth.
do you dare deny the millions who were butchered? historical records have shown and proven them time and time again to be true. perhaps it is you who needs to be re-educated. may God have mercy on your misled souls
We don't worship Mary, and speaking about fantics I can say a lot about Christians as well. And by the way, that line hail Mary is found in the Bible, perhaps you need to reread your Bible.
oh really? why do fanatics bow and revere statues of her? i wish i came up with that term but sadly someone else beat me to it. you say again you don't worship mary? did i hear correctly? let me quote your prayers " hail mary full of grace the Lord is with you blessed are you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus, HOLY mary MOTHER OF GOD...." -
depending on what you deem as the true Bible your version differs greatly from mine. for me only the KJV is the true version since no one has dared challange or been able to cobtradict or prove the KJV wrong whereas all other versions have been faulted, critisized proven contradictory by many scholars. or are you the one deying the truth? all non catholics were either wiped out or chased out of spain, portugal and france during the inquisiton period. hundreds upon thousands were burnt or tortured to death, even today museums in spain dare not deny that fact and the torture and execution tools are still displayed. by the time the inquisition ended records have shown and even king phillip of spain declared there are no "infidels" in catholic southern europe. even as napoleon's troops invaded and occupied many predominantly catholic countries in europe they were shocked to find bones of thousands of aborted children underneath monastries, same thing with the mexican revolutionary soldiers. don't believe? read up and cross refrence instead of relying on your obviously biased sources of information. as for the child molestation cases, sure catholic priests weren't the only ones doing it but they're the only ones who did it and still tried to cover up and display hypocritical "holy" behavior.Originally posted by plo30360:We don't worship Mary, and speaking about fantics I can say a lot about Christians as well. And by the way, that line hail Mary is found in the Bible, perhaps you need to reread your Bible. -
If you Bible does not have that line, I must say I'm suprised because even all Christian Bibles have it.As for the KJV being unchallenged, I believe SIS has quite a lot to say about that.
depending on what you deem as the true Bible your version differs greatly from mine. for me only the KJV is the true version since no one has dared challange or been able to cobtradict or prove the KJV wrong whereas all other versions have been faulted, critisized proven contradictory by many scholars. or are you the one deying the truth?
I'm really interested to know your source, please do state it here, If you chose a netural source like wikipedia, you would know that the spanish inquistion was not started by the Church. Furtrhermore you would also know that Protestant Inquistions also occured.And again this thing about hundreds of thousands, where exactly do you get these statistics from?
all non catholics were either wiped out or chased out of spain, portugal and france during the inquisiton period. hundreds upon thousands were burnt or tortured to death, even today museums in spain dare not deny that fact and the torture and execution tools are still displayed. by the time the inquisition ended records have shown and even king phillip of spain declared there are no "infidels" in catholic southern europe. even as napoleon's troops invaded and occupied many predominantly catholic countries in europe they were shocked to find bones of thousands of aborted children underneath monastries, same thing with the mexican revolutionary soldiers. don't believe? read up and cross refrence instead of relying on your obviously biased sources of information.
My sources of information come from the likes of wikipedia,which is neutral. YOUR statements read like typical Fundamentalist litrature.
I believe I had a similar dicussion before, it is so convinient for our Protestant(Christian) brethen to claim only Catholics have child scandals and cover them up, whereas they seem to be guilty of the same crime.
as for the child molestation cases, sure catholic priests weren't the only ones doing it but they're the only ones who did it and still tried to cover up and display hypocritical "holy" behavior. -
and what is this SIS that you mention? another one of the henchmen of "the organisation" i suppose?Originally posted by plo30360:I believe I had a similar dicussion before, it is so convinient for our Protestant(Christian) brethen to claim only Catholics have child scandals and cover them up, whereas they seem to be guilty of the same crime. and whoever said some "protestants" never molested children? -
wikipedia "neutral"? LMAO. wikipedia articles are written by individuals and wikipedia does not guarentee nor take responsibility of the information whereas other more neutral sites are from the collective works of many rsearchers based on fact and not blind statements eg. wikipedia. God gave us brains for a reason my friend, make good use of them instead of refering to just one source of information.Originally posted by plo30360:I believe I had a similar dicussion before, it is so convinient for our Protestant(Christian) brethen to claim only Catholics have child scandals and cover them up, whereas they seem to be guilty of the same crime. -
SIS is an atheist sgforumite and even he at least tries to come up with facts.
and what is this SIS that you mention? another one of the henchmen of "the organisation"; i suppose? and whoever said some "protestants" never molested children?
Whoever said I'm basing all my conclucions on wikipedia,I said wikipedia was one of them.
wikipedia "neutral"? LMAO. wikipedia articles are written by individuals and wikipedia does not guarentee nor take responsibility of the information whereas other more neutral sites are from the collective works of many rsearchers based on fact and not blind statements eg. wikipedia. God gave us brains for a reason my friend, make good use of them instead of refering to just one source of information.
And since God obviously blessed you with brains,please state your source here, from which you get your wonderful information -
my sources? take your time to search on google, browse through all related sites, cross refrence, do background research and watch more NGC or discovery and travel more. voila.
-
Taking the easy way out huh?
my sources? take your time to search on google, browse through all related sites, cross refrence, do background research and watch more NGC or discovery and travel more. voila. If I were to do as you suggested, I would find hundreds of sites which insist that the inquistion killed a quarter of the world's population and plenty of other rubbish. You mentioned Discovery Channel, please do state the name of the documentary.
See, I've already done all that, cross-refrencing and I made it a point to avoid Catholic or Protestant sources, to get a netural view(but I did use them, to see
how they differ from objective,truthful historical sources). And I came to my conclusions after such.
Why do you find it so difficult to list one neutral source, which is neither from a Protestant or Catholic point of view -
one neutral source? national geographic. name of documentary? if i remember correctly it was "the spanish armada" and another one on the travel channel where they visited an inquisition meuseum. if you had properly cross refrenced and examined the sources you will find that the number of non-catholics killed, tortured or expelled is estimated to be at 6 million during the Huguenot wars initiated by catholics in france against the protestants.
Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)
* Cited in Will Durant, The Reformation (1957):
o Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, estimated that 31,912 were executed, 1480-1808.
o In contrast to the high estimate cited above, Durant tosses his support to the following low estimates:
+ Hernando de Pulgar, secretary to Queen Isabella, estimated 2,000 burned before 1490.
+ An unnamed "Catholic historian" estimated 2,000 burned, 1480-1504, and 2,000 burned, 1504-1758.
* PGtH: 8,800 deaths by burning, 1478-1496
* Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (1910): 8,800 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada. (acc2 Buckle and Friedländer)
* Motley, Rise of the Dutch Republic: 10,220 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada
* Britannica: 2,000
* Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 35,534 burned.
* Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 32,000 burned
* Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 32,000 k. by burning; 20,226 k. before 1540
* Wertham: 250,000
* Rummel: 350,000 deaths overall.
* MEDIAN: 8,800 under Torq.; 32,000 all told.
* Punished by all means, not death.
# France, Religious Wars, Catholic vs. Huguenot (1562-159
* Robert J. Knecht The French Religious Wars, 1562-1598 (2000): Deaths during the wars estimated at 2M to 4M
# St. Bartholomew's Massacre, France (1572)
* Encarta hedges its bets by giving the death toll as 2 to 100 thousand.
* The 15th edition of Britannica (1992) does too: 2 to 70 thousand, although it explains that the low number comes from an unnamed "Catholic apologist", while the high number comes from a contemporary Huguenot, Duke de Sully
* The 11th edition of Britannica (1911) was more certain: 50,000 in the whole of France
* Davies: 2,000 in Paris
* Catholic Encyclopedia: 2000 in Paris; 6000-8000 nationwide
* Richard Dunn, The Age of Religious Wars 1559-1715: 3,000 k in Paris, 10,000 k in provinces.
* Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History: 10,000
* Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 10,000 in Paris; 6,000 in Rouen; 100,000 nationwide.
* Motley, Rise of the Dutch Republic: 5,000 k in Paris, 25,000-100,000 nationwide.
* Rummel: 36,000 democides
* Trager, People's Chronology: 50,000
* MEDIAN: 3,000 in Paris; 36,000 nationwide -
Bravo! =) Clap clap clap!Originally posted by vito_corleone:one neutral source? national geographic. name of documentary? if i remember correctly it was "the spanish armada" and another one on the travel channel where they visited an inquisition meuseum. if you had properly cross refrenced and examined the sources you will find that the number of non-catholics killed, tortured or expelled is estimated to be at 6 million during the Huguenot wars initiated by catholics in france against the protestants.
Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)
Ah.. It's hard to believe that a religion that's supposed to be build upon LOVE has so much HATRED.. it's like the one way to make the church unite is to find a common enemy.. so that the church can have a goal.. an agenda.. for them to justify their importance..
it's just so happened that the common enemies recognised by church these days are gays, cloning scientists, etc.. -
The is a clear & moderate stand of the church.I wonder why homo still can't understand.Originally posted by Honeybunz:http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,67776,00.html
The Electric New Paper :
Homosexuality against biblical teachings
LOVE the sinner but not the sin - this seems to be the official stand of the Christian community on homosexuality.
14 July 2004
LOVE the sinner but not the sin - this seems to be the official stand of the Christian community on homosexuality.
The New Paper yesterday approached the mainstream National Council of Churches of Singapore to comment on the Free Community Church.
Its response was to fax across a statement issued last year which said that homosexual acts are clearly against the teachings of the Bible.
But the council - which represents Anglicans, Methodists and Presbyterians, among others - added that Christians shouldn't reject gay people or be homophobic and despise them.
Gays should be treated 'no less as persons of worth and dignity'.
The council, however, remained firmly against any action that might promote a gay lifestyle.
It urged the Government to continue to outlaw homosexual acts, and to retain the policy of not allowing the registration of gay societies and clubs, and the policy of not allowing the promotion of a homosexual lifestyle.
This statement was issued following some unhappiness in the community after Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong revealed last year that the Government no longer had qualms about recruiting gays into the civil service.
For Catholics, the Vatican website says the Bible condemns homosexual acts as a 'serious depravity'. But it adds gays 'must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity'.
Dr John Hui, Master of the Catholic Medical Guild, told The New Paper in an e-mail reply yesterday: '...while homosexual acts are intrinsically wrong and not to be condoned, those with homosexual tendencies must be treated with respect, love, compassion and sensitivity, like any other human being.'
He added that as far as he knew no-one has been expelled from the Catholic Church for being gay. -
Originally posted by earthlings73:
Homosex is wrong.Can u argue it is right & good?If u can & your argument are right,then it should be legal.
Ah.. the 2 paragraphs contradicts..
how to treat homosexuals like any other human being if you remove the rights of homosexual acts, the rights to register as a society (non-sexual, but to help gays understand themselves), and to remove all gay materials from the media?
Hypocrite?
The term "homosexual tendencies" imply a learnt behaviour. Again, on what basis did he arrive at this conclusion? No. It was just assumed, as always.
And from these 2 paragraphs, it seems to imply that the local churches accept homosexuals but condoned homosexual acts, ah.. then again, if homosexuals do not practice homosexual acts, are they called homosexuals?
Most churches here believe in "faith healing".. if u believe in god, you can be converted back to straights.. but then, there are too many failed cases.. the need to set up a gay church is a solid proof that there are many gay christians who can't change themselves..
And if homosexuals can change their acts, should they continue to received discrimination? To be criminalised? Since homosexual acts are not allowed legally? How to treat homosexuals with respect if there are so much discrimination?
[b]HYPOCRITE![/b] -
Originally posted by PRP:
can u have some thots of your own?
[b]Homosex is wrong.Can u argue it is right & good?If u can & your argument are right,then it should be legal.[/b]
quoting someone elses post and say that it's wrong is err.. (i dont know what word to use to avoid flaming)
..
and this thread is about the speech made by pope..
if u r interested in the argument of whether it's right or wrong, please see this thread..
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=134150&page=6
and there's one maxim which i always force myself to operate on:
"Between black and white are the different shades of grey. Nothing is absolutely right.. or wrong.."
esp in this case when homosexuality do not harm or hurt another person.. almost gays operate within the same community.. almost all gays do not seek out innocent straight men or women to sodomise them..
if that's the case, why would someone else bother about what gays do inside their bedroom?
hence, i do not even need to demonstrate that it's good.. as long as is not wrong, why should others bother? -
because it's hypocritical! as i've stated clearly in my earlier post..Originally posted by PRP:The is a clear & moderate stand of the church.I wonder why homo still can't understand.
and by doing gay bashing, they are creating hatred among the christians against the gays..
it's like pointing one finger at the gays, but then, 3 of their fingers are pointing towards themselves..
isn't this is greater sin then having gay sex behind closed doors? -
no matter what even though personally as a Christian (non-denominational) and as much as i disgree with homosexuality, i feel that we should just let them be, don't bash or attack them, its their choice whether they wanna be homo or not. its highly "un-Christian" to try and impose your will upon others" even Jesus and God Himself did not force the masses to believe, it is their choice on whether they want to repent and recieve salvation. and without gays i dare say the world would be a much more boring place, homosexuals throughout the ages have contributed greatly to the arts eg. the greeks and even today lots of fashion designers, stylists, hairdressers are homosexuals.
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Not started by the Church, you may read wikipedia or serveral other websites.
Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)
A Catholic may have intiated the war but the casualities you are quoting is the total of both sides of the war.
# France, Religious Wars, Catholic vs. Huguenot (1562-159
* Robert J. Knecht The French Religious Wars, 1562-1598 (2000): Deaths during the wars estimated at 2M to 4M
These is defnitely not a netural source, I would suggest you find out about the author's background.
Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 32,000 burned
* Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 10,000 in Paris; 6,000 in Rouen; 100,000 nationwide.
These are talking about atrocities comittied by Christians in genral not just the Catholic Church.Witchhunts for example were intiated by Protestants(puritians etc).
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual
Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History
Richard Dunn, The Age of Religious Wars 1559-1715: 3,000 k in Paris, 10,000 k in provinces
Vague numbers, please provide the entire refernce or passage you are quoting from.
PGtH: 8,800 deaths by burning, 1478-1496
Britannica: 2,000
Rummel: 36,000 democides
* Trager, People's Chronology: 50,000
* MEDIAN: 3,000 in Paris; 36,000 nationwide
Catholic Encyclopedia: 2000 in Paris; 6000-8000 nationwide