Benedict condemns gay marriages.
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Nah, SIS won't come here. He's probably laughing at all of us now.
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Let me ask you, who is Jesus?Originally posted by vito_corleone:blasphemy! God is God, there is no "holy mother" because God is genderless and the Creater. isn't that very prayer worship? once again you said practices followed scriptures, has the Bible ever mentioned Mary being God's mother" or that you should hail her as a "holy" person? Nope.
Is Jesus God?
Isn't Mary Jesus' mother?
Doesn't that make her the mother of God?
But that doesn't make Mary a God. She's only a human being. -
let me ask you something. has Jesus ever called her "mother"?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Let me ask you, who is Jesus?
Is Jesus God?
Isn't Mary Jesus' mother?
Doesn't that make her the mother of God?
But that doesn't make Mary a God. She's only a human being.
nope. mary was merely a tool of God, though she does not deserve insults she is not to be "adored" or "revered". -
Originally posted by plo30360:
what im quoting from are examples extracted from various sources as for whether they are "neutral" or not is up to you to judge and check. FYI i extracted these info from a site which investigates human artocioties in general throughout history, not only religious conflicts therefore it has no reason to be biased.
Vague numbers, [b]please provide the entire refernce or passage you are quoting from.[/b] here are some various sources which from what i see take quite a neutral stance as compared to "biased" sources as you said be they protestant, catholic or jewish. and whoever said the so called protestants were not guilty of any crime? all these massacres, absurdly committed in the name of Jesus, be they by protestants or catholics should be brought to attention.
http://www.kings.edu/womens_history/isabel.html
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm
http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=300024191&messageID=300300823
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/653194/posts
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:U6WMXyYDyLQJ:www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc+spanish+inquisition+death+toll&hl=en&client=firefox-a
(i find this one to be the most accurate) -
No, Jesus never called her Mother, but you're not getting it.Originally posted by vito_corleone:let me ask you something. has Jesus ever called her "mother"? nope. mary was merely a tool of God, though she does not deserve insults she is not to be "adored" or "revered".
Even if Jesus never called her Mother, that still does not deny the fact that she is indeed his Mother.
Is adored and revered the same? No. 'Adoration' is worship due only to God and 'Reverence' is simply respect. -
maybe you should check up the dictionary on the definition of those words. i got a catholic friend who keeps saying "we adore mary".. are you gonna tell me that he's lying ?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:No, Jesus never called her Mother, but you're not getting it.
Even if Jesus never called her Mother, that still does not deny the fact that she is indeed his Mother.
Is adored and revered the same? No. 'Adoration' is worship due only to God and 'Reverence' is simply respect. thats the whole point, from a human point of view mary was the conciever of Jesus's mortal body but she definately isn't the mother of God, God merely used mary as a tool to deliver the Messiah and im sure mary herself wouldnt consider herself worthy of the title "mother of God". -
It's like the smarter version of the Da Vinci code discussion here, folks.
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That stand is fine enough. I mean as long as gays get most of the civil rights- except marriage, and less religious discrimination- I'm okay with the rest.Originally posted by PRP:The is a clear & moderate stand of the church.I wonder why homo still can't understand. -
I am also laughing away now.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Nah, SIS won't come here. He's probably laughing at all of us now.
And its not out out pure malice, but at the need to put each other down. -
Quite a number of civil rights are tied in with marriage though..Originally posted by timothytsgsg:That stand is fine enough. I mean as long as gays get most of the civil rights- except marriage, and less religious discrimination- I'm okay with the rest.
Esp the one related to the ights to purchase HDB flat.. Why do gays need to wait till 35 before owning a "2nd hand" flat? Even when they have found a lifetime partner? Further, both gays must be above 35 to participate in the "joint single program" for the purchase.
And the issues related to "Will". All gays need to draft a "explicit" will to make sure that their assets are correctly passed on to their other half. Or else, the partner will not be getting anything, even if they have help contribute to the purchase of it.
These are just 2 issues faced. But then, I do agree there's a need to take one step at a time.. -
Ah.. true..Originally posted by laurence82:I am also laughing away now.
And its not out out pure malice, but at the need to put each other down.
The christians felt this need to put down gays..
And the atheists felt this need to put down the christians..
And of course, there are so many One-liners that do not contribute to the discussion at all..
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I read this from fridae:
"... on 17 October 1998 in a Methodist church one Saturday afternoon during a seminar on the Bible and homosexuality. Needless to say, the theologians speaking at the seminar – which had no woman or gay speaker – stated quite categorically that homosexual relationships are sinful. Two things struck me that afternoon. Firstly I wondered why those theologians didn’t instead choose to hold a seminar on teenage abortion or divorce which seem more pressing issues in our society. Secondly it hit me hard that a bunch of religious leaders who stood there supposedly “condemning the sin but arguing for the love of the sinner” never ever thought of spending even five minutes to pray for the grieving family of Matthew Shepard. Shepard, who had been mentioned by one of the speakers, had been brutally pistol-whipped and strung out to die with his hands stretched out like a cross by two Bible-quoting men just five days before this seminar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard). Needless to say the arguments presented did not convince me."
Checked on the mattew shepard news..
"Matthew Shepard (December 1, 1976 – October 12, 199 was a college student who was brutally tortured and murdered in a hate crime. Shepard, a student at the University of Wyoming, was robbed and attacked by two men near Laramie, Wyoming on the night of October 6–October 7 because of his homosexuality. Shepard died from his wounds several days later. His killers are currently in prison."
This is the hatred I was talking about earlier.. This might not have anything to do with Christianity.. But if the church continues to preach that Homosexuality is a sin, such things will continue to happen.. Common folks will have this belief that they have the rights to "stone" the sinner.. -
Will attach the entire wikipedia article.. Quite a good read: One para demonstrates how intolerant is the church against gays.. they do not even give shepard the fianl rest even at his funeral..
is this what the religion of "love" is all about?
The attack
Shepard, a 21-year-old, met Aaron James McKinney and Russell Arthur Henderson in a bar. After he confided to them that he was gay, they deceived him into leaving with them in their car. He was robbed, severely beaten, tied to a fence and left to die. McKinney and Henderson also found out his address, intending to burgle his home. Shepard was discovered 18 hours later, alive and unconscious.
Shepard's suffered from a fracture from the back of his head to the front of his right ear. He also had catastrophic brain stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heartbeat, body temperature, and other vital signs. There were also about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. He died at 12:53 a.m. on October 12 at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado.
The blood on Shepard's face had been partly washed away by tears, indicating that he had been conscious for some time after the beating. He had been pistol-whipped 18 times with a .357-caliber revolver.
Police arrested McKinney and Henderson shortly thereafter, finding the bloody gun as well as the victim's shoes and credit card in their truck. The two murderers had attempted to get alibis from their girlfriends.
[edit]
The trial
It is believed that McKinney and Henderson had posed as homosexuals in order to trick Shepard into trusting them. During court cases both of the defendants used varying stories to defend their actions. Most notably they used the "gay panic defense", arguing that they were driven to temporary insanity by Shepard's alleged homosexual advances towards them. At another point they stated that they had only wanted to rob Shepard, and never intended to kill him.
Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999 and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences, without the possibility of parole. The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of first degree murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney also receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole. Shepard's parents stated, "We are giving him life in the memory of one who no longer lives" (local Roman Catholic clerics garnered considerable publicity when they stridently opposed the death penalty in the case). Since being imprisoned, McKinney and Henderson have both attempted to justify their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible.
[edit]
The aftershock
The heavy media coverage of Shepard's death brought issues of homophobia and gay-bashing to the forefront of public debate.
People in the entertainment industry expressed their own outrage and responded in various ways to the hate represented by the attacks. Actress Ellen DeGeneres hosted Shepard's memorial services in Washington, D.C. where she said that her coming out of the closet shortly before the attacks was "to keep this type of thing from happening". Lesbian singer Melissa Etheridge wrote the song "Scarecrow" in a tribute to Shepard, referring to his initially being mistaken for a scarecrow when he was found. Elton John and Bernie Taupin wrote the song "American Triangle" a tribute to Shepard. It was featured on John's 2001 album, Songs from the West Coast. The fence upon which Shepard was tied and left to die has been declared a nationally protected monument. The rock band Thursday, also played a song named "M. Shepard" about the incident and the reason society let it happen. Two films were made about the story of Shepard: The Laramie Project (based on the play of the same name) and The Matthew Shepard Story. Both won numerous awards. Matthew Shepard can also be seen in the documentary Dear Jesse, in a brief interview.
The anti-gay Rev. Fred Phelps and his supporters picketed Shepard's funeral, as well as the trial of his assailants. They displayed signs typical of their protests, with slogans such as "Matt Shepard rots in Hell", "AIDS Kills Fags Dead", and "God Hates Fags". Phelps has since made attempts to gain a city permit to build a monument "of marble or granite 5 or 6 feet in height" on which will be a bronze plaque bearing Shepard's picture and the words: "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22."
As a counterprotest during Henderson's trial, Romaine Patterson, a friend of Shepard's, organised a group of individuals who assembled in a circle around the Phelps group wearing white robes and gigantic wings that literally blocked the protesters (who were confined to a small protest square by police) from the view of passers-by. While the organisation had no name in the initial demonstration, it has since been ascribed various titles, including 'Angels of Peace' and 'Angel Action'.
A similar angel tactic has been reused a number of times at other protests by Phelps, but less effectively as the "Angels" are now required to stay in their own separate protest square.
Matthew's parents Judy and Dennis are now active supporters of gay rights and tolerance educators.
The Shepard case prompted President Bill Clinton to renew attempts to extend federal hate crime legislation to include gays, women and the disabled. These efforts were rejected by the Republican majority in the House of Representatives in 1999. -
It is hard to believe that what happened to Matthew Shepard happened in modern America, not the 3rd Reich.
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What happened to Matthew Shepard was just sick and bigoted.And any religious practitioner who can say that he deserved his death, in my eyes, will rot in Hell.We are not God, therefore we have no right to judge and kill someone because he is different.
Who are these people to presume that they are God?You can hate the sin or demonise all you want, but when you stand in support of cold-blooded murder, you are no better off dead. -
and you forgot to add that the 2 murderers used the bible to justify their acts..Originally posted by LazerLordz:What happened to Matthew Shepard was just sick and bigoted.And any religious practitioner who can say that he deserved his death, in my eyes, will rot in Hell.We are not God, therefore we have no right to judge and kill someone because he is different.
Who are these people to presume that they are God?You can hate the sin or demonise all you want, but when you stand in support of cold-blooded murder, you are no better off dead.
i mean if the pope, as the head of the biggest religion in the world, could adopt a more neutral stance, would all these discrimination, bashing happen? Should the chruch encourage more tolerance instead of just preaching that homosexual acts is a sin? -
True, the church is indirectly responsible for such hate crimes. By preaching vehemently against sinful acts (abortion, gay sex, etc) it unwittingly puts those people who carry out such acts in danger from religious extremists. Those who gunned down abortion doctors or homosexuals because of their sinfulness are no different from the Al-Qaeda group or Iran's Guardian Council.Originally posted by earthlings73:and you forgot to add that the 2 murderers used the bible to justify their acts..
i mean if the pope, as the head of the biggest religion in the world, could adopt a more neutral stance, would all these discrimination, bashing happen? Should the chruch encourage more tolerance instead of just preaching that homosexual acts is a sin? -
He has a duty to his religion,but could also preach tolerance and patience.Instead of keeping silent, which nutcases might assume to be tactic silent approval.Originally posted by earthlings73:and you forgot to add that the 2 murderers used the bible to justify their acts..
i mean if the pope, as the head of the biggest religion in the world, could adopt a more neutral stance, would all these discrimination, bashing happen? Should the chruch encourage more tolerance instead of just preaching that homosexual acts is a sin? -
do you propose that he has the right to do gay (verbal) bashing?Originally posted by LazerLordz:He has a duty to his religion,but could also preach tolerance and patience.Instead of keeping silent, which nutcases might assume to be tactic silent approval.
in fact, most people still do believe that they have the rights:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/wickham/2002-12-09-wickham_x.htm
Another gay bashing just a couple of weeks ago in New York
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/317896p-271893c.html
Gay-bash victim in coma
Thug kicked him in face, sez witness
By KATE MEYER,
MARISSA WIDDISON,
and JONATHAN LEMIRE
DAILY NEWS WRITERS
A frail Brooklyn man was in a coma late yesterday after being savagely beaten and kicked by three men screaming anti-gay slurs, police said.
Witnesses rushed to help Dwan Prince as he lay bleeding outside his building on E. 94th St. and Kings Highway in Brownsville - but they could not stop one of the attackers from rushing back and kicking the 32-year-old again in his head.
"He circled back and kicked the guy in the face," said a horrified Omar Bascombe, 28, who lives next door. "Then, blood started flowing from his mouth, and he wasn't breathing."
Prince, who is HIV-positive, has been in intensive care at Brookdale Hospital since the Wednesday night attack. Though he remained unconscious last night, officials said his condition was improving and he was breathing on his own.
The violence - which is being investigated by cops as an anti-gay hate crime - began shortly before midnight when Prince exchanged words with a man walking by his home, police said.
Investigators did not detail the content of the exchange, but Prince's neighbors said he made a flirtatious joke.
"I tried to tell [Prince] that you can't be too nice to everybody, for not everybody will like you," said Tony Davidson, 43, the superintendent of Prince's building. "He probably got beat up because he was gay."
The passerby returned moments later in a dark sedan with two other men. They jumped Prince, pummeling him with their fists and feet, police said.
Scared off by a passing car, the men left only to come back minutes later, witnesses said.
Bascombe, who was sitting on his stoop with a friend, heard the commotion and ran over to find a battered Prince trying to crawl back into his building. Bascombe said he then confronted one of the raging attackers.
"The guy is dying here, and I'm not going to let you kill him in front of my house," Bascombe told the thug.
"I told him not to hit him again," Bascombe said. "But he did hit him just to show me what he could do."
Prince, who works as a porter at the building where he lives, momentarily stopped breathing as his attackers sped off.
No arrests were made, and his family was keeping a prayerful vigil at his hospital bed last night.
"He is a great guy, people like him," said his mother, Valerie Prince, who said Dwan is one of her two sets of twins. "He likes to live life....He's my only son."
"He's a real charmer," said his stepfather, Melvin Wilder, 50. "I'm upset, he's a real good kid. This shouldn't be happening."
Originally published on June 10, 2005
So is this morally right? -
Dwan Prince's attackers should be imprisoned on Guantanamo Bay for life.
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Originally posted by earthlings73:
No.And you misread the gist of my statement.
do you propose that he has the right to do gay (verbal) bashing?
in fact, most people still do believe that they have the rights:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/wickham/2002-12-09-wickham_x.htm
Another gay bashing just a couple of weeks ago in New York
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/317896p-271893c.html
[b]Gay-bash victim in coma
Thug kicked him in face, sez witness
By KATE MEYER,
MARISSA WIDDISON,
and JONATHAN LEMIRE
DAILY NEWS WRITERS
A frail Brooklyn man was in a coma late yesterday after being savagely beaten and kicked by three men screaming anti-gay slurs, police said.
Witnesses rushed to help Dwan Prince as he lay bleeding outside his building on E. 94th St. and Kings Highway in Brownsville - but they could not stop one of the attackers from rushing back and kicking the 32-year-old again in his head.
"He circled back and kicked the guy in the face," said a horrified Omar Bascombe, 28, who lives next door. "Then, blood started flowing from his mouth, and he wasn't breathing."
Prince, who is HIV-positive, has been in intensive care at Brookdale Hospital since the Wednesday night attack. Though he remained unconscious last night, officials said his condition was improving and he was breathing on his own.
The violence - which is being investigated by cops as an anti-gay hate crime - began shortly before midnight when Prince exchanged words with a man walking by his home, police said.
Investigators did not detail the content of the exchange, but Prince's neighbors said he made a flirtatious joke.
"I tried to tell [Prince] that you can't be too nice to everybody, for not everybody will like you," said Tony Davidson, 43, the superintendent of Prince's building. "He probably got beat up because he was gay."
The passerby returned moments later in a dark sedan with two other men. They jumped Prince, pummeling him with their fists and feet, police said.
Scared off by a passing car, the men left only to come back minutes later, witnesses said.
Bascombe, who was sitting on his stoop with a friend, heard the commotion and ran over to find a battered Prince trying to crawl back into his building. Bascombe said he then confronted one of the raging attackers.
"The guy is dying here, and I'm not going to let you kill him in front of my house," Bascombe told the thug.
"I told him not to hit him again," Bascombe said. "But he did hit him just to show me what he could do."
Prince, who works as a porter at the building where he lives, momentarily stopped breathing as his attackers sped off.
No arrests were made, and his family was keeping a prayerful vigil at his hospital bed last night.
"He is a great guy, people like him," said his mother, Valerie Prince, who said Dwan is one of her two sets of twins. "He likes to live life....He's my only son."
"He's a real charmer," said his stepfather, Melvin Wilder, 50. "I'm upset, he's a real good kid. This shouldn't be happening."
Originally published on June 10, 2005
So is this morally right?
[/b] -
Your friend is gravely mistaken. Catholics do not adore Mary, we only venerate her. One must only adore God. It is a sin to adore Mary.Originally posted by vito_corleone:maybe you should check up the dictionary on the definition of those words. i got a catholic friend who keeps saying "we adore mary".. are you gonna tell me that he's lying ? thats the whole point, from a human point of view mary was the conciever of Jesus's mortal body but she definately isn't the mother of God, God merely used mary as a tool to deliver the Messiah and im sure mary herself wouldnt consider herself worthy of the title "mother of God".
How can you possibly try to separate Jesus' divine nature from his human nature? He is both Man and God.
To separate Jesus' divine person from his human person is heresy! And this was already heard of in the 5th Century. It was Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: "God-bearer" or, less literally, "Mother of God"). Nestorius claimed that she only bore ChristÂ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos ("Christ-bearer" or "Mother of Christ").
Catholic theologians recognized that NestoriusÂ’s theory would fracture Christ into two separate persons (one human and one divine, joined in a sort of loose unity), only one of whom was in her womb. The Church reacted in 431 with the Council of Ephesus, defining that Mary can be properly referred to as the Mother of God, not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of God, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, in fact, God incarnate ("in the flesh"). -
Isn't what the Church has taught? To be faithful to the teaching and yet tolerate and love?Originally posted by LazerLordz:He has a duty to his religion,but could also preach tolerance and patience.Instead of keeping silent, which nutcases might assume to be tactic silent approval.
It is stated in the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.
Article 2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. -
Reread your post again.. and hope that i'm right this time..Originally posted by LazerLordz:No.And you misread the gist of my statement.
u were arguing for "Love the sinner but hate the sin."
is that right?
but i had argued against earlier that such stance do not stand because in the case of homosexuality.. the sin = the sinner..
this is also one of the major proponents of the reparative therapy.. i've quoted the American Psychological Society page here.. A neutral enough party to allow us to examine whether is it possible for the sinner not to commit the sin..
"Reparative Therapy"
"Reparative therapy," also known as conversion therapy, is a term that is used to describe treatment attempts to change a person from a homosexual orientation to a heterosexual orientation. There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of "reparative therapy" as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989).
There are a few reports in the literature of efforts to use psychotherapeutic and counseling techniques to treat persons troubled by their homosexuality who desire to become heterosexual; however, results have not been conclusive, nor have they been replicated. There is no evidence that any treatment can change a homosexual person's deep seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex.
Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so.
please read the full article if you are interested..
http://www.psych.org/public_info/homose~1.cfm -
You sure that they are really neutral? How do you know that the powerful gay and lesbian lobby groups in America did not lobby for the Society to change it's definition?