Benedict condemns gay marriages.
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The world is changing, everything changes....anything is possible and nothing is impossible and there is nothing we can do....really nothing
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by saying that are you trying to tell me that Christ is not God but also man? the human body is but a shell created out of dust by God. Jesus is God, not a human being. You are humbling the Lord by trying to claim that He was part human.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Your friend is gravely mistaken. Catholics do not adore Mary, we only venerate her. One must only adore God. It is a sin to adore Mary.
How can you possibly try to separate Jesus' divine nature from his human nature? He is both Man and God.
To separate Jesus' divine person from his human person is heresy! And this was already heard of in the 5th Century. It was Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: "God-bearer" or, less literally, "Mother of God"). Nestorius claimed that she only bore ChristÂ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos ("Christ-bearer" or "Mother of Christ").
Catholic theologians recognized that NestoriusÂ’s theory would fracture Christ into two separate persons (one human and one divine, joined in a sort of loose unity), only one of whom was in her womb. The Church reacted in 431 with the Council of Ephesus, defining that Mary can be properly referred to as the Mother of God, not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of God, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, in fact, God incarnate ("in the flesh"). -
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
apparently that the catholic church teaches is contradictory to how most of its members behave.
Isn't what the Church has taught? To be faithful to the teaching and yet tolerate and love?
It is stated in the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.
Article 2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. [b]They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
[/b]
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i can see that this mutual debating is getting nowhere. i do not buy marcoss's story and neither does he buy mine. as for who's right, i stick with mine but we'll leave it for God to decide on judgement day. and regarding a previous post: who said Christians can't take alcohol? The Bible mentions wine many times over and not only Christians but for anybody to abuse alcohol consumption even from a non-faith point of view it is bad not because it is "sinful" or "evil" but it damages your bloody liver.
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sigh.. personal attacks again.. but then, i'll be a good homo sapien and use solely objective reasoning to reply you (in case, you get offended again)..
we had debated on this topic for a long while in another thread.. and we found no new points here.. For most of the points u've, i've demonstrated conclusively that it doesn't work on "logic" basis..
which will bring me to one point.. please differentiate between "logic" and "belief".. if it is just a "belief" that something is wrong, shouldn't such beliefs apply to only those people who hold those "beliefs".. trying to hard sell your belief and condemning others for not sharing your belief is pure egoistic.. and in no way i'm arguing that gays are right or everyone in this world should be gay.. i'm just arguing that being gays are not wrong and hence should be treated as what other human beings deserve..
ah.. first of all, i'm atheist, but not anti-christians.. please do not label me as one.. i'm just raising a point using pure logic..Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You expose your ignorance about the bible and christianity, though that is understandable given your antagonism to both. The food laws that you alluded to are still followed strictly by orthodox Jews...that's why they eat only kosher food. Christians interprete sections of the New Testament to mean that these laws concerning food have been laid aside. If you are interested to know why, go and study theology.
I don't expect you to think that the bible makes sense to you but that's no reason to ridicule another person's holy book?
if certain laws in old testaments can be voided, should ALL laws be voided? and in your words, christians interpret the laws and make a decision on what to follow and what not too.. but shouldn't bible be the words of god and should be followed strictly? your argument simply suggest that the bible is still up for human's interpretation..
there are lots of value in the bible.. why shouldn't good christians be focusing on those that help themselves as well as the society as a whole? rather than focusing on certain aspects that create hatred which might lead to cases like matthew shepard (remember that the 2 guys used the bible as a defence)
do you think gay christians are gay first or christians first? let's look at the western countries.. most of them are borned into a christian family.. they believe in god from the age that they understand the concept of god, let's say 6-8 years old.. on the other hand, ideas about sexuality comes much later.. during puberty (ard 11-14), when u start to feel attracted to another individual, be it same sex or opposite sex..Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Majority of christians will not agree with that...the bible says you cannot love God without obedience. Gay Christians are therefore living in sin and by no stretch of imagination can they be said to love God:
"This is love for God: to obey his commands...."; (1 Jn 5:3)
you arguments seem to suggest that this development is the other way round, which is not true..
just simply type gay church on google and you will returned with many many links to gay churches..
http://www.cathedralofhope.com/
http://www.gaychurch.org/
etc...
if they do not believe in god, will they remain as christians?
Again, i've suggested in the other thread that the particular translation you had used is not the standard translation.. Most translation does not contain the last sentence:Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Because the bible condemns it in the strongest possible terms:
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Lev 20:13
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Rom 1:27)
For Christians, if God condemns it, it is condemned...period.
"They must be put to death?" how are u different from the 2 murderers who killed matthem shepard.. And how different are you from the reverend who gatecrash his funeral? i will post the matthew shepard article again later..
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it true.. but then does it justify the atrocities to be continued? it just like saying that it's lucky you are not living in iraq (and preach your beliefs to them).. or else, they will most likely get stoned before me..Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Just be thankful you don't live in a Muslim country. If you are convicted of homosexuality, you can be stoned to death. Isn't it better to keep it in the bedroom then? -
researchers have found out that in certain predominantly conservative muslim countries homosexuality is rather rampant not because they like humping men but because women are viewed as in inferior species unworthy of providing a man with pleasure, this view dates back to medival times.Originally posted by earthlings73:You expose your ignorance about the bible and christianity, though that is understandable given your antagonism to both. The food laws that you alluded to are still followed strictly by orthodox Jews...that's why they eat only kosher food. Christians interprete sections of the New Testament to mean that these laws concerning food have been laid aside. If you are interested to know why, go and study theology.
I don't expect you to think that the bible makes sense to you but that's no reason to ridicule another person's holy book.
quote:
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just do a simple internet search and you will find many gay christians ard.. they love god as much as any of the straights..
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Majority of christians will not agree with that...the bible says you cannot love God without obedience. Gay Christians are therefore living in sin and by no stretch of imagination can they be said to love God:
"This is love for God: to obey his commands...."; (1 Jn 5:3)
quote:
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no one had clearly articulated why is homosexuality amoral?
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Because the bible condemns it in the strongest possible terms:
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Lev 20:13
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Rom 1:27)
For Christians, if God condemns it, it is condemned...period.
quote:
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do you think your statement of just stay in your bedroom ever be justified?
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Just be thankful you don't live in a Muslim country. If you are convicted of homosexuality, you can be stoned to death. Isn't it better to keep it in the bedroom then? -
yup.. the world has not changed.. homosexuality is not a recent phenomenum.. it had gotten the hype recently because ofOriginally posted by vito_corleone:researchers have found out that in certain predominantly conservative muslim countries homosexuality is rather rampant not because they like humping men but because women are viewed as in inferior species unworthy of providing a man with pleasure, this view dates back to medival times.
1) the rise in religious fundamentalist
2) the awareness of human rights..
and these 2 views crashed head on..
if virginia woolf were born in this era, she did not have to kill herself.. she will most likely be an active member in the gay rights program like ellen degeneres (the voice for "dory" in "finding nemo").. -
i had addressed this issue in length in another post.. hence, will not repeat myself here.. and thanks for bringing out the point about "faith".. should the christians then targets their preaching within the confinement of the church then? since not everyone shares the same "faith" as the christians.. just like you never get to see dalai lama condemning those people who butcher animals for a living.. when a religious person start to "push" their faith into other people's boundary (i.e., the non-believer), that's an immediate infringement of rights.. and a demonstration of religious intolerance..Originally posted by sgdiehard:The old testament, as part of the Bible, tells us who God is, how he created heaven and earth, his walk with his chosen people, the israelites, and more importantly tells us clearly that the coming of jesus christ to save the world was prophesized and it is God's plan! With Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection, man, no longer need to offer burnt sacrifices (example) to atone our sins to get close to God. But immorality remains immorality, God has not changed the definition. May be you think that if God change the definition of morality and sin then man will not sin anymore. NO! God is the Holy God and will never accept what is sinful. That is why he sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to atone the sins for all mankind so that we can be reconcilled with him.
I accept God and the Bible in faith. If you want to have better understanding of the Bible and God, as Oxford Mushroom said, go to the theological college.
I am not qualified to explain but I do know that many things, like the Holiness of God and God's standards of morality, are not subjects for discussion. It is either you accept it or not.
Ah.. I guess you didn't read my post carefully enough.. the verse i quoted precede the verse you had quoted.. when read together, it simply says that:"homosexuality, according to paul, is a disease pass from god to those who do not believe in god.."Originally posted by sgdiehard:Not sure what you are trying to say with these few verses. To me, these verses tell us that God's wrath is on man because man knew there is God but do not gloriy him as God. Instead, man worshipped idols made in the form of man, birds.... That is why many christian (non catholic) churches put no statues of anykind in the church, except a wooden cross as a symbol of our salvation. God is against worshipping of idols.
What have we ignored?
as to whether such a statement can stand the test of logic and reasoning, i've demonstrated in the earlier post too.. but just to add.. do you want to claim that ALL atheists are HOMOSEXUALS?
can you see the danger of such categorical argument, which will encourage prejudice and the hatred that follows..
ah.. but did god condemn ugly people? NO.. do christians condemn ugly people? NO.. it's like god created homosexuals for some religious zealots to condemn.. if he really love all his children, should he create homosexuals in the first place? if u read the articles from american psychiatric association, you will know that gays are facing lots of identity problems, especially during teenhood.. which will more likely to result in depression and suicide (compared to straights)..Originally posted by sgdiehard:Why God made them homosexuals? sometimes I want to ask God why was I born so ugly? Do they really want to change? or do they think that as long as they are filial to their parents, love God, then God will ACCEPT their behaviors as not sinful???
Since they accept God and call themselves Christians, it is up to them to reconcile their behavior with God. We can only pray for them.
if those 3 verses that he quoted cannot stand the test of reasoning, should it be "force" onto others? it's a question of faith, like u said.. so why shouldn't the church be focusing on christians only? further.. the only reason spelt out is by paul.. who claimed that if you do not believe in god, you will become gay.. i've shown how wrong such views might be.. will not elaborate again here..Originally posted by sgdiehard:Homosexual is a sin against God, nothing to do with any other's rights. Oxford Mushroom is quite clear on this and I will not add.
why would i fear they would be insulted? i do not hold any prejudice against anyone in particular (except maybe religious zealots=p), why would i fear? and back in those days, it's justified for the blacks to get insulted, to be treated as lower class human beings, etc.. etc.. it took hundreds of years to bring the blacks from slavery to the current status they have now.. as the society progress, we can only hope that human beings will become more and more tolerant with diversity..Originally posted by sgdiehard:I hope the blacks are not insulted by your comparing their fights for civil equality to your fight for rights to homosexuality.
yup, precisely.. gays are like anyone else.. the only difference is that gays are attracted to the sex gender.. that's it.. gays are no less human than the others.. and hence, why the discrimination (from sexual acts to marriage laws to hdb rules)?Originally posted by sgdiehard:I only have two friends who appear to be gays. I never ask them if they have sex with man, women, children or what. We shared happy moment, together as a group on many things. They are like anyone of us, they just did not show their tendency in front of us. They probably know that certain things is best kept to themselves. We respect their need for privacy and they respect our stand on moral standard.
and i do encourage you to probe them.. not in a group though.. maybe over the phone, or when u are with them face to face.. they will most likely be willing to share their life story which can be very interesting.. they will be your loyal friend if you show respect to their homosexuality.. -
Originally posted by PRP:
can you prove that jews is good?
If u can't prove homosex is good,how do u know it is not wrong?
[b]Homosex is not good to oneself.It is like abusing drug,so they are illegal.[/b]
did you know that hitler claimed that jews is not good and exterminated the majority of jews in world war II?
what's good and what's bad?
and your reasoning is like.. err.. sigh.. i dont know why am i responding to your post anyway..
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sigh..Originally posted by vito_corleone:apparently that the catholic church teaches is contradictory to how most of its members behave.
either that, or certain verses or paragraph will be twisted to justify what they believe in..
it's like they have already decided that gay is bad.. and twisting all teachings to fit into their particular schema..
sigh..
i do respect religious people who do good deeds, share their love, etc.. i'm just wondering why are there so many religious zealots ard that share hatred instead?
remeber matthew shepard.. -
duplicated post
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i will quote the matthew shepard story again. for fear that oxford mushroom might not have read.. pay attention specifically to the leviticus quotes.. even such a religious fanatic did not quote those words you have used..
and for those who still think that such condemnation is justified.. think again.. matthew shepard's case is not an isolated case.. if u type gay bashing on google.. you will return with many many urls..
for those who argued that police will help catch the murder..
just ask yourself.. whether is it better to help stop spreading the hatred against the gays.. or is it better to wait till the police catches the murderers? the answer is clear to me.. i'm not sure about you..Matthew Shepard (December 1, 1976 – October 12, 1999) was a college student who was brutally tortured and murdered in a hate crime. Shepard, a student at the University of Wyoming, was robbed and attacked by two men near Laramie, Wyoming on the night of October 6–October 7 because of his homosexuality. Shepard died from his wounds several days later. His killers are currently in prison.
The attack
Shepard, a 21-year-old, met Aaron James McKinney and Russell Arthur Henderson in a bar. After he confided to them that he was gay, they deceived him into leaving with them in their car. He was robbed, severely beaten, tied to a fence and left to die. McKinney and Henderson also found out his address, intending to burgle his home. Shepard was discovered 18 hours later, alive and unconscious.
Shepard's suffered from a fracture from the back of his head to the front of his right ear. He also had catastrophic brain stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heartbeat, body temperature, and other vital signs. There were also about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. He died at 12:53 a.m. on October 12 at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado.
The blood on Shepard's face had been partly washed away by tears, indicating that he had been conscious for some time after the beating. He had been pistol-whipped 18 times with a .357-caliber revolver.
Police arrested McKinney and Henderson shortly thereafter, finding the bloody gun as well as the victim's shoes and credit card in their truck. The two murderers had attempted to get alibis from their girlfriends.
The trial
It is believed that McKinney and Henderson had posed as homosexuals in order to trick Shepard into trusting them. During court cases both of the defendants used varying stories to defend their actions. Most notably they used the "gay panic defense", arguing that they were driven to temporary insanity by Shepard's alleged homosexual advances towards them. At another point they stated that they had only wanted to rob Shepard, and never intended to kill him.
Henderson pleaded guilty on April 5, 1999 and agreed to testify against McKinney to avoid the death penalty; he received two consecutive life sentences, without the possibility of parole. The jury in McKinney's trial found him guilty of first degree murder. As it began to deliberate on the death penalty, Shepard's parents brokered a deal, resulting in McKinney also receiving two consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole. Shepard's parents stated, "We are giving him life in the memory of one who no longer lives" (local Roman Catholic clerics garnered considerable publicity when they stridently opposed the death penalty in the case). Since being imprisoned, McKinney and Henderson have both attempted to justify their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible.
The aftershock
The heavy media coverage of Shepard's death brought issues of homophobia and gay-bashing to the forefront of public debate.
People in the entertainment industry expressed their own outrage and responded in various ways to the hate represented by the attacks. Actress Ellen DeGeneres hosted Shepard's memorial services in Washington, D.C. where she said that her coming out of the closet shortly before the attacks was "to keep this type of thing from happening". Lesbian singer Melissa Etheridge wrote the song "Scarecrow" in a tribute to Shepard, referring to his initially being mistaken for a scarecrow when he was found. Elton John and Bernie Taupin wrote the song "American Triangle" a tribute to Shepard. It was featured on John's 2001 album, Songs from the West Coast. The fence upon which Shepard was tied and left to die has been declared a nationally protected monument. The rock band Thursday, also played a song named "M. Shepard" about the incident and the reason society let it happen. Two films were made about the story of Shepard: The Laramie Project (based on the play of the same name) and The Matthew Shepard Story. Both won numerous awards. Matthew Shepard can also be seen in the documentary Dear Jesse, in a brief interview.
The anti-gay Rev. Fred Phelps and his supporters picketed Shepard's funeral, as well as the trial of his assailants. They displayed signs typical of their protests, with slogans such as "Matt Shepard rots in Hell", "AIDS Kills Fags Dead", and "God Hates Fags". Phelps has since made attempts to gain a city permit to build a monument "of marble or granite 5 or 6 feet in height" on which will be a bronze plaque bearing Shepard's picture and the words: "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22."
As a counterprotest during Henderson's trial, Romaine Patterson, a friend of Shepard's, organised a group of individuals who assembled in a circle around the Phelps group wearing white robes and gigantic wings that literally blocked the protesters (who were confined to a small protest square by police) from the view of passers-by. While the organisation had no name in the initial demonstration, it has since been ascribed various titles, including 'Angels of Peace' and 'Angel Action'.
A similar angel tactic has been reused a number of times at other protests by Phelps, but less effectively as the "Angels" are now required to stay in their own separate protest square.
Matthew's parents Judy and Dennis are now active supporters of gay rights and tolerance educators.
The Shepard case prompted President Bill Clinton to renew attempts to extend federal hate crime legislation to include gays, women and the disabled. These efforts were rejected by the Republican majority in the House of Representatives in 1999. -
I'd believe its time we stopped dividing people or rather, stop them-ing ourselves to death.
If you gonna divide people up and condemn one or two groups, it will only cause more conflict.
Yet for so long, the politicians who divide us, telling us that what's gone wrong with Singapore is the rest of us. Them.
Them, the liberals. Them, the opposition. Them, the people. Them, the poor. Them, the atheists. Them, the gays. Them, the lesbians.
We have got to the bloody point where we have them'ed ourselves to death. But there shouldn't be any "them" anymore. This is Singapore. There's only us. United as a people and as a country and with liberty and justice for all.
It's time we stop this division. No matter how and what the Church views about homesexuals and what they do, it's time we stop dividing ourselves and making such un-necessary conflict. If Singapore needs to get out of this economic rut, then we need all of u. And I mean all. -
ah.. i agree with this view 2 hands up..Originally posted by timothytsgsg:I'd believe its time we stopped dividing people or rather, stop them-ing ourselves to death.
If you gonna divide people up and condemn one or two groups, it will only cause more conflict.
Yet for so long, the politicians who divide us, telling us that what's gone wrong with Singapore is the rest of us. Them.
Them, the liberals. Them, the opposition. Them, the people. Them, the poor. Them, the atheists. Them, the gays. Them, the lesbians.
We have got to the bloody point where we have them'ed ourselves to death. But there shouldn't be any "them" anymore. This is Singapore. There's only us. United as a people and as a country and with liberty and justice for all.
It's time we stop this division. No matter how and what the Church views about homesexuals and what they do, it's time we stop dividing ourselves and making such un-necessary conflict. If Singapore needs to get out of this economic rut, then we need all of u. And I mean all.
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If i got a third hand, i will put it up too.
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The "divide and conquer" tactics of the PAP are tiring. So are some of the conservatives in the Catholic Church. The current Pope doesn't help matters either.
Whether he had good or bad intentions by labelling gays as he thought they were, it's still tiring to hear theological politicians like him talking in this manner, dividing people apart using religion as a reason.
That's one of the main reasons on why I want a centrist government, a government for all people, regardless of any differences. A united people under a united country, fighting for not just his/her own self but for each other as well. It's time we did that and it's time to set aside such tiresome language, "them-ing" each other apart. -
Are Christians pushing our faith into other peopleÂ’s boundary? Or are gays here asking Christians to be accept the act of homosexual in the name of religious tolerance? I said it before, gays are free to practice what they want, but be sensitive to the feeling of others who do not share your liking, they have their rights too.Originally posted by earthlings73:i had addressed this issue in length in another post.. hence, will not repeat myself here.. and thanks for bringing out the point about "faith".. should the christians then targets their preaching within the confinement of the church then? since not everyone shares the same "faith" as the christians.. just like you never get to see dalai lama condemning those people who butcher animals for a living.. when a religious person start to "push" their faith into other people's boundary (i.e., the non-believer), that's an immediate infringement of rights.. and a demonstration of religious intolerance..
The verses on this issue say that because of what man have done, “therefore God gave them over to the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity…”verse 24. “ Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts…”verse 26. It simply means that because of what man do, God leave them to their sinful desires and shameful lusts. God says,” I don’t care anymore.” How do you interpret this that “homosexuality, according to paul, is a disease pass from god to those who do not believe in god.”???Originally posted by earthlings73:Ah.. I guess you didn't read my post carefully enough.. the verse i quoted precede the verse you had quoted.. when read together, it simply says that:"homosexuality, according to paul, is a disease pass from god to those who do not believe in god.."
as to whether such a statement can stand the test of logic and reasoning, i've demonstrated in the earlier post too.. but just to add.. do you want to claim that ALL atheists are HOMOSEXUALS?
can you see the danger of such categorical argument, which will encourage prejudice and the hatred that follows..
And in verse 27, God says that “Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” In other words, God is saying, “do what you like according to your desires and lusts, but you will receive the due penalty.” Paul make it clear that this is a sinful, shameful and is a perversion, and Christian must learn to hate things that are sinful, and shameful. Why force us to like it and accept it?
It is the same question as why do God create sinners. Sinful acts are condemned by God, not by the believers, and the punishment will come from God, not from the believers. Believers accept God's standard and we do not want to condone such act and certainly want no share of the punishment.Originally posted by earthlings73:ah.. but did god condemn ugly people? NO.. do christians condemn ugly people? NO.. it's like god created homosexuals for some religious zealots to condemn.. if he really love all his children, should he create homosexuals in the first place? if u read the articles from american psychiatric association, you will know that gays are facing lots of identity problems, especially during teenhood.. which will more likely to result in depression and suicide (compared to straights)..
Homosexual acts, like any sexual acts, are to be done in private. I sympathize with them for their problem and I certainly hope that they can deal with it appropriately, but I cannot condone homosexual.
You are gay because you like to have sex with your same sex, not because you do not believe in God. DonÂ’t twist the scripture for convenience, pls.Originally posted by earthlings73:if those 3 verses that he quoted cannot stand the test of reasoning, should it be "force" onto others? it's a question of faith, like u said.. so why shouldn't the church be focusing on christians only? further.. the only reason spelt out is by paul.. who claimed that if you do not believe in god, you will become gay.. i've shown how wrong such views might be.. will not elaborate again here..
Equality for a fellow human beings is totally different from equality between what is moral and what is immoral. Greater tolerance for immorality will only result in decadency of civilization.Originally posted by earthlings73:why would i fear they would be insulted? i do not hold any prejudice against anyone in particular (except maybe religious zealots=p), why would i fear? and back in those days, it's justified for the blacks to get insulted, to be treated as lower class human beings, etc.. etc.. it took hundreds of years to bring the blacks from slavery to the current status they have now.. as the society progress, we can only hope that human beings will become more and more tolerant with diversity..
Sexual matters are private matters and I do not probe into any couples sexual life. Among couples we share knowledge leading to a happier married life, but never to share ”story which can be very interesting”. I AM REALLY NOT INTERESTED IN KNOWING HOW MAN HAVE SEX WITH ANOTHER MAN. In fact, I find it totally disgusting!!! You really need to learn how to respect others. You don't ever ask a muslim to tast a bit of pork for they may find it tasty.Originally posted by earthlings73:yup, precisely.. gays are like anyone else.. the only difference is that gays are attracted to the sex gender.. that's it.. gays are no less human than the others.. and hence, why the discrimination (from sexual acts to marriage laws to hdb rules)?
and i do encourage you to probe them.. not in a group though.. maybe over the phone, or when u are with them face to face.. they will most likely be willing to share their life story which can be very interesting.. they will be your loyal friend if you show respect to their homosexuality..
If gays cannot be loyal friends to those who do not share the same liking, then count me out. thank you. -
sigh.. to reply your other points will make me post back what i've said earlier.. haizzz.. tired of rebutting now.. will process my thots tomorrow..Originally posted by sgdiehard:Sexual matters are private matters and I do not probe into any couples sexual life. Among couples we share knowledge leading to a happier married life, but never to share ”story which can be very interesting”. I AM REALLY NOT INTERESTED IN KNOWING HOW MAN HAVE SEX WITH ANOTHER MAN. In fact, I find it totally disgusting!!! You really need to learn how to respect others. You don't ever ask a muslim to tast a bit of pork for they may find it tasty.
If gays cannot be loyal friends to those who do not share the same liking, then count me out. thank you.
but then this last point is exactly the kind of narrow-mindedness reflected by the religious zealots (sorry, timothy.. for using categorisation again.. i'm not talking abt all christians btw, guess i'm less sinful=p)
and i'm talking about sharing life story.. not about their sex life..
please try to get away from this prejudice that gays have nothing to do other than sex..
ah.. and i'm not asking you to be gay (you cannot become one if you are not one to begin one).. just getting to know another person who had different life experience..
just ask yourself these few questions and you will get an answer..
do muslims go ard condemning people who eat pork? NO
do they have the capacity to befriend others who eat pork? YES!
i'm very sure they find pork eating disgusting, but that does not mean that they cannot befriend someone who eats pork?
if u cannot befriend a gay because you find gay sex disgusting.. you are the one who does not show respect..
btw, i'm just using your example of muslim and pork eating.. please do not flame me and called me names again.. -
it will take a long long time for singapore.. judging from the responses in this thread..Originally posted by timothytsgsg:The "divide and conquer" tactics of the PAP are tiring. So are some of the conservatives in the Catholic Church. The current Pope doesn't help matters either.
Whether he had good or bad intentions by labelling gays as he thought they were, it's still tiring to hear theological politicians like him talking in this manner, dividing people apart using religion as a reason.
That's one of the main reasons on why I want a centrist government, a government for all people, regardless of any differences. A united people under a united country, fighting for not just his/her own self but for each other as well. It's time we did that and it's time to set aside such tiresome language, "them-ing" each other apart.
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singapore came a long way for 4 different races and religions to live in harmony. The basis of the harmony is not the merging of all races and religions but the respect for others. Often it is not them that are showing the difference, it is "I" with my rights, my freedom that is causing the division. why are gay bashing found in the US, the country with the greatest freedom and highest respect for human rights?Originally posted by timothytsgsg:I'd believe its time we stopped dividing people or rather, stop them-ing ourselves to death.
If you gonna divide people up and condemn one or two groups, it will only cause more conflict.
Yet for so long, the politicians who divide us, telling us that what's gone wrong with Singapore is the rest of us. Them.
Them, the liberals. Them, the opposition. Them, the people. Them, the poor. Them, the atheists. Them, the gays. Them, the lesbians.
We have got to the bloody point where we have them'ed ourselves to death. But there shouldn't be any "them" anymore. This is Singapore. There's only us. United as a people and as a country and with liberty and justice for all.
It's time we stop this division. No matter how and what the Church views about homesexuals and what they do, it's time we stop dividing ourselves and making such un-necessary conflict. If Singapore needs to get out of this economic rut, then we need all of u. And I mean all.
Before we take every opportunity to should about "My rights", lets examine how others might be affected. Social harmony and country before self??? anyone?? -
"...narrow-mindedness" " religious zealots" name calling oredi.Originally posted by earthlings73:sigh.. to reply your other points will make me post back what i've said earlier.. haizzz.. tired of rebutting now.. will process my thots tomorrow..
but then this last point is exactly the kind of narrow-mindedness reflected by the religious zealots (sorry, timothy.. for using categorisation again.. i'm not talking abt all christians btw, guess i'm less sinful=p)
and i'm talking about sharing life story.. not about their sex life..
please try to get away from this prejudice that gays have nothing to do other than sex..
ah.. and i'm not asking you to be gay (you cannot become one if you are not one to begin one).. just getting to know another person who had different life experience..
just ask yourself these few questions and you will get an answer..
do muslims go ard condemning people who eat pork? NO
do they have the capacity to befriend others who eat pork? YES!
i'm very sure they find pork eating disgusting, but that does not mean that they cannot befriend someone who eats pork?
if u cannot befriend a gay because you find gay sex disgusting.. you are the one who does not show respect..
btw, i'm just using your example of muslim and pork eating.. please do not flame me and called me names again..
We have no disagreement that gays are like any others except for their liking for the same sex and it is your definition that gays who do not engage in homosexual act are not gays. What is there to probe from a gay that is different from the others???
I respect a gay as a fellow human being and they have my respect for everything that is noble and right, but there can be no respect for gay sex. Like you said, I am not a gay to begin with, then how can I like gay sex? have to like it to show respect to gay? hello, have some respect for me. -
What I feel is: It goes both ways
1) Don't condemn people who are homosexuals.
2) At the same time, homosexuals should also be mindful wat the rest of society feels about them. It is one thing abt raising gay awareness, but another if some gay individuals starts to overdo it by being insensitive to people who cannot accept their lifestyle. In this hypocritical/conservative society of ours, It does no good to be too flashy.
More acceptance will come in due course. Not all people are arrogant bigots who condemn gays readily. It just need time. People will be more sympathetic if they do not think their 'values' are being threatened/offended. -
Screw the hypocrisy.A minute abstained is a minute lost.Originally posted by laoda99:What I feel is: It goes both ways
1) Don't condemn people who are homosexuals.
2) At the same time, homosexuals should also be mindful wat the rest of society feels about them. It is one thing abt raising gay awareness, but another if some gay individuals starts to overdo it by being insensitive to people who cannot accept their lifestyle. In this hypocritical/conservative society of ours, It does no good to be too flashy.
More acceptance will come in due course. Not all people are arrogant bigots who condemn gays readily. It just need time. People will be more sympathetic if they do not think their 'values' are being threatened/offended. -
I can settle for that.Originally posted by laoda99:What I feel is: It goes both ways
1) Don't condemn people who are homosexuals.
2) At the same time, homosexuals should also be mindful wat the rest of society feels about them. It is one thing abt raising gay awareness, but another if some gay individuals starts to overdo it by being insensitive to people who cannot accept their lifestyle. In this hypocritical/conservative society of ours, It does no good to be too flashy.
More acceptance will come in due course. Not all people are arrogant bigots who condemn gays readily. It just need time. People will be more sympathetic if they do not think their 'values' are being threatened/offended.
Lets recognise what kind of society there is, learn how to live in the society and not trying to change the society to suit us. Even if everybody agree to change the society, it will take time. Comparing the gay bashing in america and the great gay party held in singapore, our society is not bad in handling the issue.
If we deal with one another with what is good and noble, it will be easy for others to accept us. If we avoid flashing our different 'value', especially those "values" that are likely to offend others, we will avoid unnecessary conflict.
We don't have to show our ugly side all the time to show that we are not hypocrite. -
Haha, gay bashing is present in France and Spain too, you know!Originally posted by sgdiehard:singapore came a long way for 4 different races and religions to live in harmony. The basis of the harmony is not the merging of all races and religions but the respect for others. Often it is not them that are showing the difference, it is "I" with my rights, my freedom that is causing the division. why are gay bashing found in the US, the country with the greatest freedom and highest respect for human rights?
Before we take every opportunity to should about "My rights", lets examine how others might be affected. Social harmony and country before self??? anyone??
Anyway, "Social harmony" is extremely different from "country before self" since "country" refers to "interests of the Ruling Party in matters pertaining to preservation of their own power" in the current political context whilst "social" means "communitarian" (as opposed to "communal").
A society is a community, and a community is a collection of individuals. Therefore, if an individual's basic rights eg. right to life are violated, if the "my rights" are violated, then essentially social rights are being violated too. In pragmatic (read:economic) terms, Private Costs are a subset of Social Costs.
I'm all for social harmony, but before we can have social harmony, we need to have harmony with ourselves. Conflict often stems from an inferiority complex on the part of those who feel victimised.
And I would rather have nation before self than country before self.
Of course, that doesn't mean I support gay sex.
And FYI, USA isn't the country with the highest respect for human rights.
Regards,
the pikamaster