Who's afraid of China?
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I think it's no point in continuing to fear China. If we become too obessed abt the bad things China has or will have, in the end it will become reality.
We cannot fear China, we must engage it. And we must engage it with brains and with proper thoughts. The 21st century is and will be mostly China, so we must engage it. Protectionism will only be counter-effective and useless anyway.
Because if we engage China continuously and with good faith, eventually China will learn about human rights, proper dignity, democracy and accountability. Shut them out and they will only go back to their old ways.
It is a new world out there so we must coax them to embrace this new world, not whack it out just because they are still partially a closed country- and the majority of the people there still somewhat tactless and borish. -
LKY was a rebel in the eyes of the British Crown.Fast forward 50 years..sama sama.Whoever has his passion, now is facing an uphill task.It's a vicious cycle and if democratic institutions are not firmed up and encouraged to flourish freely, we are staring at short-term "success" but long term detriment.Originally posted by Elfred:Hehehehe...
In any case, no lobang ya...?
Is the current government really that good? That's really up to you to see it.
Actually, I don't really see it the way you see it. Just for your info.
Regarding this 2nd LKY issue... ... I can only tell you that whether there is really a third or forth LKY, that's all dependent on whether Singapore's fortune. To be a turely good political leader, you always have criticisms and issues which means people would hate and love you, but in any case, you gotta have that kinda thinking. See?
MM Lee, regardless his personality or belief, he does one thing the distinguish himself from many leaders of his time: He thinks, and in a political manner.
But put it this way... ...
If there'd be a LKY in Singapore right now, he's either preparing to migrate or already migrated. What will the machinery (those at the civil services and such) be doing to a political thinker as LKY...?
In a way, you can say the first LKY is working to kill the next LKY, of course, with the infamous political apathy... the second LKY is not going to find it a very good life in such 'environment'.
He could easily end up being sued, being labelled an outcast and such for his... political inclination. 
Of course of course... it all depends...
Look at Arsenal and Chelsea.Who will survive and prosper in the long run?Answer is pretty obvious to me..and only deluded fools will choose the path of instant success or supposed success. -
Not really true. At the very least, the British did work closely with him for liberating this crown jewels of the British empire.Originally posted by LazerLordz:LKY was a rebel in the eyes of the British Crown.Fast forward 50 years..sama sama.Whoever has his passion, now is facing an uphill task.It's a vicious cycle and if democratic institutions are not firmed up and encouraged to flourish freely, we are staring at short-term "success" but long term detriment.
Look at Arsenal and Chelsea.Who will survive and prosper in the long run?Answer is pretty obvious to me..and only deluded fools will choose the path of instant success or supposed success.
What Ben, and probably most people, ain't facing is this... well, nobody in the right mind really saw then LKY as a very great threat. His commercial partner who is for another party never saw his party winning, and of course, both Lim and Fong were more popular than he was even till the later part of the fight, and not to forget, David M was also very popular in comparison to then LKY.
Not to forget, LKY wasn't one who was known to please people... and the Malaysians who both saw him a nuisance and threat, together with the Tunku's displeasure sent him off. Though, PAP by that time was already quite established.
If there were to be any talk of the second LKY... what he'd be facing could be loads of sh!ts right from the start. You can probably say LKY is a good element to Singapore since he knows how to govern. But at the same time, you can say LKY borrow the weight of those who later split to BS as if Singapore was a great single GRC, because LKY alone will never make it at the very beginning. He could be increasingly popular, but at the start, he himself was a blackhorse to start with. It's very easy to know. He's a politically minority element, especially he didn't speak Mandarin back then. Or rather a political outcast but timing was on his side.
But here, so with a twist of fate, the fortune of SIngapore is shining that he and gang emerged to be the governors.
But to speak of the second, third or forth LKYs in Singapore in the current outfit, the truth behind is to imply these LKYs will never make it in ordinary times, and are heavily dependent on two factors.
Besides, who in the right mind won't find such elements a threat??? Would you promote anyone who'd probably end up as your greatest competitor...?
So the two factors could be easily guessed. -
Put it this way... Before China goes way up the growth factors, people are already seeing it as some great opportunities more than a threat or what back then. That's commercio-politico...Originally posted by timothytsgsg:I think it's no point in continuing to fear China. If we become too obessed abt the bad things China has or will have, in the end it will become reality.
We cannot fear China, we must engage it. And we must engage it with brains and with proper thoughts. The 21st century is and will be mostly China, so we must engage it. Protectionism will only be counter-effective and useless anyway.
Because if we engage China continuously and with good faith, eventually China will learn about human rights, proper dignity, democracy and accountability. Shut them out and they will only go back to their old ways.
It is a new world out there so we must coax them to embrace this new world, not whack it out just because they are still partially a closed country- and the majority of the people there still somewhat tactless and borish.
China has alot of issues in itself... truly. But then, from a political view, this doesn't matter.
You see, Timothy, it's not whether China will turn into a Hello Kitty or what that the world is worrying or not. Cos the political thinkers of the times will understand this:
There will always be those fascinated with tigers when seeing a real one just in sight to make the run to the jeep, and those who hope the tiger (by any chance, to be full and in the right mind) would turn into Hello Kitty with good sayanging...
The problem with your kinda thinking is pretty dangerous. You can coax China... but you can't ignore that China has loads of trigger points. Throw some meat to the tiger might do the work for now, by when it grows, it might need more... and you are a source of meat too.
You can be nice to China, but China has its own interests and intents. And international complexities ain't gonna make things that simple. And not forget, even (say) USA themselves got their own interests to take care of. What happen when this problematic, not so great China end up making USA incur great deficits... threaten all sectors in other states...?
See? It's not so straight forward.
You cannot (say) expect China could end up a democratic republic and question solved. Ok, even if it miraculously does, in the meantime, issues still pop up. And don't forget, China is not only a state, it's a fireball of nationalistic nation of Chinese. Which means...?
Nobody is telling nobody to be fearful of China. But reality kicks in pretty fast and appropriate thingys must be there to ensure the world goes in a peaceful dancing steps. But... that'd mean great minds cos great thinking is required.
You ain't wanna be fearful of the tigers... but even if they ain't wild, I'm sure you ain't gonna jump into the tiger cage in Mandai Zoo...
Ya... some people did that...
Now just see the point of why China is feared. It's really pointless to simply wishingly assuming China would be... whatever. -
nah... not trying to win u to my side. differing opinions are ok.Originally posted by Elfred:Hehehehe...
In any case, no lobang ya...?
Is the current government really that good? That's really up to you to see it.
Actually, I don't really see it the way you see it. Just for your info.
Regarding this 2nd LKY issue... ... I can only tell you that whether there is really a third or forth LKY, that's all dependent on whether Singapore's fortune. To be a turely good political leader, you always have criticisms and issues which means people would hate and love you, but in any case, you gotta have that kinda thinking. See?
MM Lee, regardless his personality or belief, he does one thing the distinguish himself from many leaders of his time: He thinks, and in a political manner.
But put it this way... ...
If there'd be a LKY in Singapore right now, he's either preparing to migrate or already migrated. What will the machinery (those at the civil services and such) be doing to a political thinker as LKY...?
In a way, you can say the first LKY is working to kill the next LKY, of course, with the infamous political apathy... the second LKY is not going to find it a very good life in such 'environment'. He could easily end up being sued, being labelled an outcast and such for his... political inclination.
Of course of course... it all depends...
the first LKY is getting old though. actually... deep inside me, i think Singapore is gonna be in big trouble. especially for the not-so-well-to-do people. income disparity will only get worse and the poor will have problems making ends meet. (again my personal opinion). What i am hoping for (wishful thinking maybe) is a next generation of leaders to lead the economy.
I agree that a lot of them would have migrated... but personally speaking.. i have met a few that are really patriotic and they have soo much to contribute. hopefully something comes out of it -
yep. i agree!Originally posted by timothytsgsg:I think it's no point in continuing to fear China. If we become too obessed abt the bad things China has or will have, in the end it will become reality.
We cannot fear China, we must engage it. And we must engage it with brains and with proper thoughts. The 21st century is and will be mostly China, so we must engage it. Protectionism will only be counter-effective and useless anyway.
Because if we engage China continuously and with good faith, eventually China will learn about human rights, proper dignity, democracy and accountability. Shut them out and they will only go back to their old ways.
It is a new world out there so we must coax them to embrace this new world, not whack it out just because they are still partially a closed country- and the majority of the people there still somewhat tactless and borish. -
erm.. this sounds stupid but... who will succeed? i am a hard-core arsenal fan actually lolOriginally posted by LazerLordz:LKY was a rebel in the eyes of the British Crown.Fast forward 50 years..sama sama.Whoever has his passion, now is facing an uphill task.It's a vicious cycle and if democratic institutions are not firmed up and encouraged to flourish freely, we are staring at short-term "success" but long term detriment.
Look at Arsenal and Chelsea.Who will survive and prosper in the long run?Answer is pretty obvious to me..and only deluded fools will choose the path of instant success or supposed success.
i hope i have inferred correctly that u r 1 too?? lol -
i get what u r pushing through elfred. i dun agree 100% but u have ur point. i n any case, would u happened to have a proposed solution to this China problem?Originally posted by Elfred:Put it this way... Before China goes way up the growth factors, people are already seeing it as some great opportunities more than a threat or what back then. That's commercio-politico...
China has alot of issues in itself... truly. But then, from a political view, this doesn't matter.
You see, Timothy, it's not whether China will turn into a Hello Kitty or what that the world is worrying or not. Cos the political thinkers of the times will understand this:
There will always be those fascinated with tigers when seeing a real one just in sight to make the run to the jeep, and those who hope the tiger (by any chance, to be full and in the right mind) would turn into Hello Kitty with good sayanging...
The problem with your kinda thinking is pretty dangerous. You can coax China... but you can't ignore that China has loads of trigger points. Throw some meat to the tiger might do the work for now, by when it grows, it might need more... and you are a source of meat too.
You can be nice to China, but China has its own interests and intents. And international complexities ain't gonna make things that simple. And not forget, even (say) USA themselves got their own interests to take care of. What happen when this problematic, not so great China end up making USA incur great deficits... threaten all sectors in other states...?
See? It's not so straight forward.
You cannot (say) expect China could end up a democratic republic and question solved. Ok, even if it miraculously does, in the meantime, issues still pop up. And don't forget, China is not only a state, it's a fireball of nationalistic nation of Chinese. Which means...?
Nobody is telling nobody to be fearful of China. But reality kicks in pretty fast and appropriate thingys must be there to ensure the world goes in a peaceful dancing steps. But... that'd mean great minds cos great thinking is required.
You ain't wanna be fearful of the tigers... but even if they ain't wild, I'm sure you ain't gonna jump into the tiger cage in Mandai Zoo...
Ya... some people did that...
Now just see the point of why China is feared. It's really pointless to simply wishingly assuming China would be... whatever. -
ahha! thanks for that short n concise history lesson in S'pore politics. i am not doubting u... but where did u get these stuff from? i wanna go read up and balance up my skewed perception of realityOriginally posted by Elfred:Not really true. At the very least, the British did work closely with him for liberating this crown jewels of the British empire.
What Ben, and probably most people, ain't facing is this... well, nobody in the right mind really saw then LKY as a very great threat. His commercial partner who is for another party never saw his party winning, and of course, both Lim and Fong were more popular than he was even till the later part of the fight, and not to forget, David M was also very popular in comparison to then LKY.
Not to forget, LKY wasn't one who was known to please people... and the Malaysians who both saw him a nuisance and threat, together with the Tunku's displeasure sent him off. Though, PAP by that time was already quite established.
If there were to be any talk of the second LKY... what he'd be facing could be loads of sh!ts right from the start. You can probably say LKY is a good element to Singapore since he knows how to govern. But at the same time, you can say LKY borrow the weight of those who later split to BS as if Singapore was a great single GRC, because LKY alone will never make it at the very beginning. He could be increasingly popular, but at the start, he himself was a blackhorse to start with. It's very easy to know. He's a politically minority element, especially he didn't speak Mandarin back then. Or rather a political outcast but timing was on his side.
But here, so with a twist of fate, the fortune of SIngapore is shining that he and gang emerged to be the governors.
But to speak of the second, third or forth LKYs in Singapore in the current outfit, the truth behind is to imply these LKYs will never make it in ordinary times, and are heavily dependent on two factors.
Besides, who in the right mind won't find such elements a threat??? Would you promote anyone who'd probably end up as your greatest competitor...?
So the two factors could be easily guessed. -
Originally posted by Elfred:
Isn't politics about self interest and financial gains ?
Before China goes way up the growth factors, people are already seeing it as some great opportunities more than a threat or what back then. That's commercio-politico...
You made it sound like cozing up China has more hidden menace than positive outlook on her global integration.China has alot of issues in itself... truly. But then, from a political view, this doesn't matter.
What precisely are those issues.....truely? -
Agree on that.Originally posted by ben1xy:Gun: i forgot 1 thing
i approach these things from an economical perspective. so my arguements will be pretty narrow in scope. however, i do feel strongly that economics actually dictates plenty of the underlying purpose of going to war. Without doubt, other social and political issues do come into play (religion, etc). But yes i do admit that world politics is nv certain and thats why we always have to be vigiliant
I cannot entirely discount your views.
That's why I find the opinion on Japanese commercial role in WWII 'interesting'
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hahaa.. i am but a boring and lowly economist .. u're being too kindOriginally posted by Gun:Agree on that.
I cannot entirely discount your views.
That's why I find the opinion on Japanese commercial role in WWII 'interesting' -
You may not find all the items mentioned in one book, and may have to form your final views from reading the memoirs of some of the main actors of the period when Singapore was part of Malaysia - each looking at the same period of history from their personal experience and views.Originally posted by ben1xy:ahha! thanks for that short n concise history lesson in S'pore politics. i am not doubting u... but where did u get these stuff from? i wanna go read up and balance up my skewed perception of reality
'Looking Back' - by Tunku Abdul Rahman
'The Singapore Story' - by Lee Kuan Yew
and some of the follow-up comments and reactions from the memoirs as the reaction from the daughter of Tun Tan Siew Sin (the Finance Minister of Malaysia during the early days circa 1963) .
LKY's memoirs cast aspersions
http://www.malaysia.net/lists/sangkancil/1998-09/frm03015.html
and from the most recent memoir from a person close to Tunku Abdul Rahman, and in the thick of the politics during the volatile period of late 1950s and early 1960s - from self-Rule to independence through Malaysia.
'OUSTED !' - by Partick Keith
This is the first even-handed book that serves as a refresher to the events during a most volatile period of Malayan-Singapore history leading to the formation of Malaysia. A book that the author claims to be based largely on his personal notes recorded in his position as Deputy Director of External Information with the Malaysian Government. The author has migrated to Australia, having been disillusioned by the racial-economic politics in Malaysia.
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw05/050722mk.htm
Following site, is a summarized keyhole into the entire Malaysian-Singapore event - including the 3 'infamous' Questions for Singaporeans to decide in a Referendum whether to merge into Malaysia.
http://www.hsse.nie.edu.sg/staff/kahack/cc%206.1%20(Merger).htm -
wow .. thats quite a numberOriginally posted by Atobe:You may not find all the items mentioned in one book, and may have to form your final views from reading the memoirs of some of the main actors of the period when Singapore was part of Malaysia - each looking at the same period of history from their personal experience and views.
'Looking Back' - by Tunku Abdul Rahman
'The Singapore Story' - by Lee Kuan Yew
and some of the follow-up comments and reactions from the memoirs as the reaction from the daughter of Tun Tan Siew Sin (the Finance Minister of Malaysia during the early days circa 1963) .
LKY's memoirs cast aspersions
http://www.malaysia.net/lists/sangkancil/1998-09/frm03015.html
and from the most recent memoir from a person close to Tunku Abdul Rahman, and in the thick of the politics during the volatile period of late 1950s and early 1960s - from self-Rule to independence through Malaysia.
'OUSTED !' - by Partick Keith
This is the first even-handed book that serves as a refresher to the events during a most volatile period of Malayan-Singapore history leading to the formation of Malaysia. A book that the author claims to be based largely on his personal notes recorded in his position as Deputy Director of External Information with the Malaysian Government. The author has migrated to Australia, having been disillusioned by the racial-economic politics in Malaysia.
i have the S'pore story with me .... maybe i'll start on that first... looks pretty thick though.. lol
thks atobe -
If you have not lived through the tumultous period of the late 1950s and through the 1960s, these few books and website will hopefully help to bring one back into that period of passionate politics.Originally posted by ben1xy:wow .. thats quite a number
i have the S'pore story with me .... maybe i'll start on that first... looks pretty thick though.. lol
thks atobe
Your views of the Japanese political-economic co-operation in shaping its foreign and domestic policies seems to be very close to the model adopted by the Singapore Government.
Although there is no significant INDEPENDENT 'keiretsus' - (other then the GLCs) - in Singapore, the Government has insisted the close tri-partite relationship between the Government, Employers, and Unions to ensure progress and growth in the Singapore economy.
This obviously will translate into continued political stability for the country and also for the continued stay in power of the Ruling Party.
The Single Party dominance of the Singapore System has closely been studied by the Chinese Communist Party, when Deng Xiao Ping was fascinated by the dominance of Singapore's economic role in the World despite its size, and yet allowing a Single Political Party to dominate the political scene despite all the odds thrown against it.
If the Chinese Communist Party is able to deflect any clamour for political freedom, much as the Singapore Ruling Party has done for the last FORTY YEARS, it can continue in nursing its present economic revolution.
China 'threat' to the world will come from its ability to be more competitive than any other country in the production of consumer and industrial goods - with this competitive ability felt more sharply as it improves on quality.
WW2 broke out largely due to the more imperialistic countries imposing economic restrictions on smaller countries.
Germany was heavily restricted and sanctions placed after its defeat in WW-1; and Japan was muscled out of China by Europeans in the land grab for raw materials and consumer markets.
Will China act responsibly as a member of the global community ?
Will it moderate its own industrial and manufacturing ability so as not to destabilize the industries and employment situations in other countries ?
Will China be disillusioned if they find the standards imposed by the World Trade Organisation to be hypocritical, riddled with double-standards and U-Turn policies set by other (western) countries - that so eloquently propound the Principles of Free Trade, - in the natural balancing of market forces in free Supply and Demand ? -
i agree with the early parts of your post. and YES s'pore actually based its economy on Japan.Originally posted by Atobe:If you have not lived through the tumultous period of the late 1950s and through the 1960s, these few books and website will hopefully help to bring one back into that period of passionate politics.
Your views of the Japanese political-economic co-operation in shaping its foreign and domestic policies seems to be very close to the model adopted by the Singapore Government.
Although there is no significant INDEPENDENT 'keiretsus' - (other then the GLCs) - in Singapore, the Government has insisted the close tri-partite relationship between the Government, Employers, and Unions to ensure progress and growth in the Singapore economy.
This obviously will translate into continued political stability for the country and also for the continued stay in power of the Ruling Party.
The Single Party dominance of the Singapore System has closely been studied by the Chinese Communist Party, when Deng Xiao Ping was fascinated by the dominance of Singapore's economic role in the World despite its size, and yet allowing a Single Political Party to dominate the political scene despite all the odds thrown against it.
If the Chinese Communist Party is able to deflect any clamour for political freedom, much as the Singapore Ruling Party has done for the last FORTY YEARS, it can continue in nursing its present economic revolution.
China 'threat' to the world will come from its ability to be more competitive than any other country in the production of consumer and industrial goods - with this competitive ability felt more sharply as it improves on quality.
WW2 broke out largely due to the more imperialistic countries imposing economic restrictions on smaller countries.
Germany was heavily restricted and sanctions placed after its defeat in WW-1; and Japan was muscled out of China by Europeans in the land grab for raw materials and consumer markets.
Will China act responsibly as a member of the global community ?
Will it moderate its own industrial and manufacturing ability so as not to destabilize the industries and employment situations in other countries ?
Will China be disillusioned if they find the standards imposed by the World Trade Organisation to be hypocritical, riddled with double-standards and U-Turn policies set by other (western) countries - that so eloquently propound the Principles of Free Trade, - in the natural balancing of market forces in free Supply and Demand ?
Will it moderate its own industrial and manufacturing ability so as not to destabilize the industries and employment situations in other countries ?
not quite possible. the China market is too fragmented currently and Beijing has lost plenty of its influence.. espcially in its fiscal policies
Will China be disillusioned if they find the standards imposed by the World Trade Organisation to be hypocritical, riddled with double-standards and U-Turn policies set by other (western) countries - that so eloquently propound the Principles of Free Trade, - in the natural balancing of market forces in free Supply and Demand ?
seriously... nobody believes that the WTO is fair. and the Western economic propaganda is juz a cover up for their own selfish intentions (which is fair.. who doesn't fight for his own selfish intentions right?)
China knows that it has been hard-done by the Western (or rather specifically U.S pressure) countries and it has been strategically manouvering itself -
Hehehehe... ...Originally posted by ben1xy:nah... not trying to win u to my side. differing opinions are ok.
the first LKY is getting old though. actually... deep inside me, i think Singapore is gonna be in big trouble. especially for the not-so-well-to-do people. income disparity will only get worse and the poor will have problems making ends meet. (again my personal opinion). What i am hoping for (wishful thinking maybe) is a next generation of leaders to lead the economy.
I agree that a lot of them would have migrated... but personally speaking.. i have met a few that are really patriotic and they have soo much to contribute. hopefully something comes out of it
Your hope will hardly come through...
Don't you get it, a nation is indeed not really supported by patriotic people. It's not exactly simple as you suppose. Why in Singapore would people be so... funny in thinking...?!
My parents and siblings... totally adversely influenced by the society, who are the typically don't think but nie nie wanna win type.
In a way, I have quite nothing that'd emotionally tie me back to Singapore should migration turns out to be a way.
So many years have passed, and so many patriotism and contributions... But even the blind should at least feel something is not right.
I am quite determined my next generation will not end up in such pathetic environment. They must be able to think, and that means they'd need good peers. Maybe I'd send them off to their grand-parents in China. -
China has correctly placed self-restraints to its aggressive exports by passing an export textile tax.
This self-imposed Textile Export Tax was in response to the outcry by Western Countries - whose own garment and textile industries could not compete with the cheap supply of garments and textiles from China; as China's manufacturing cost is lower than the textile and garment industries in Western Countries which depended on cheap labor from neighboring regions - (USA depends on Mexican and Latin labor; while much of West Europe is dependent on cheap labor from Turkey, East Europe and North Africa).
Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60972-2004Dec13.html
Seattle Times
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002118643_chinatextiles14.html
While China's market maybe fragmented, with many local power centers, the will of the Central Government in Beijing will be tested as the economy overheats, and the threat of the bubble bursting will force the Central Government to impose harsh punishment on the Provincial Powers.
The stability of China will depend on the strength of the Central Committee of the China Communist Party, which should not repeat the mistakes made by the Kuomintang during the 1940s after Japan was defeated in WW-2 - when the KMT lost control of the many local warlords that it created when it tried to govern a vast China.
The will of the Central Government in Beijing will not be doubted, as was seen in the drive to stop corruption, and its response to local dissent towards the corrupt political indulgence of local officials.
China to strengthen Central Government controls in Tax System (July 2000)
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/east/07/30/china.taxes.ap/
China's Central Control Losing Out to Regionalism (1995)
http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1995/1/11_2.html
China in the 20th Century
http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/china%20in%20the%2020th%20century.html
Chinese Peasant Attacked in Land Dispute
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401542_pf.html
With the World Trade Organisation largely dominated by the USA, and with most industries on this globe looking at the US market for the better part of its output, the rules and regulations of the WTO will be heavily influenced by the USA.
When almost every country is looking at the USA to absorb its manufacturing produces, the deficit problem of the US can only worsen, and the lower end job opportunities will become tighter for those in the lower income strata.
This will present a huge headache for any political party trying to take over the leadership role in the US Government.
'Protectionism' is a dirty word in this age of globalisation and interconnectivity.
The other alternative for China is to take on the leadership role to form a larger Asian Trade Zone that encompass all the countries in the Far East, Southeast Asia, and South Asia - and perhaps 'Australiasia' .
U.S. Trade Policy toward China :
Discrimination and Its Implications
http://www.eastwestcenter.org/stored/misc/paftad_30_bown_mcculloch.pdf
Chinese Textile Group Appeals to U.S.
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=35459
Global Linkages and the Constraints on the Emerging Economy:
The Case of the Chinese Automobile Industry
http://imvp.mit.edu/papers/94/Yang/yang-1.html -
Of course.Originally posted by ben1xy:i get what u r pushing through elfred. i dun agree 100% but u have ur point. i n any case, would u happened to have a proposed solution to this China problem?
If I work for their premier, I'd even help China kill corruption down significantly. Born wrong place, wrong time, wrong family. Hehehehehe...
I can't, of course tell you exactly everything, but I can only tell you that Singapore in thr currently state is in no position to interfere or effect much balance... I suspect MM Lee intends to play middleman for US and China (afterall, isn't Singapore 70% Chinese). But I am quite certain it will not work now. China-US is not Weaker China-Taiwan situation.
ASEAN itself is still too weak to do much. And... regretfully speaking, many academic experts could be still day-dreaming...
You have to understand this, in order to effect a balance where Singapore stands to gain a lot, China would have to be re-educated. How'd a nation be re-educated? Not only so, in order to have a balance of interest, there must be a really good buffer, especially when US is already quite shaky.
If you say we should see China's growth as better opportunities... then you should first ask yourself one simple question:
Do you expect the Chinese premier to recognise the possibility of elevating the entire China whereby rich-poor gap will be totally minimised?
I tell you straight away... The answer is No.
Will China hence be a democratic nation?
I can also tell you straight away... Fat hope.
Why?
Because simply, in oriental China, it's Chinese to establish hierachies down to the very simplest social units. In order to hold these social units, you cannot democratised the way US divide itself into states. Doing so sow the seeds for huge mega rebellions, and social orders totally disrupted. But you cannot remove the Chinese characteristics as a whole.
Why?
Because if you cannot reduce rich-poor gap consistently, empty stomach always fire emotional flames and that creates political potential for chaos...
So in order to understand what you are dealing with, you'd have to understand even deeper.
Once you realise that, you'd find that if the world cannot contain China comfortably, the world must be ready. While the world is finding a balance to China, trying to close one eye on China's political issues is going to be a very bad idea... for it'd simply push China to an extreme. When the Hello Kitty grows to a full-flung jaws biting tiger... How is the world going to tame it?
Do you know that the more you conveniently let China by, the more the people's perception of greater China, China supremacy, Chinese arrogance and not forgetting... the urge for revenge...
The premier and the 1.5 billion of emotions... ...
You ain't dealing with North Korea with the ultimate world police in charge. You are dealing with an entire civilisation with the power to directly topple the police. -
Reality is: No one is perfect.Originally posted by ben1xy:ahha! thanks for that short n concise history lesson in S'pore politics. i am not doubting u... but where did u get these stuff from? i wanna go read up and balance up my skewed perception of reality
No need to read. Use your brain, see? Why would there be a struggle if passion of LKY could solve everything?
The simple reason is... Alright, let's assume now is 1960s, and you are the PM or secretary-gen, and you look at the candidates slating for elections... and you come across Mr LKY.
Would you choose him?
The answer is probably no. Too high a risk, said Lim Chin Siong. 'This guy has no background.'
You'd look at your biggest voters' base... 'This guy can't even read Chinese properly...'
Fong would tell you, 'Compare to David Marshal, this Kuan Yew probably'd never make it... is he as handsome as Elvis?'
If he was not Secretary-Gen... You'd probably shrug and say, 'Maybe get some heavy weight, like those Tan Tock Sengs who are dirt rich, well-known, speaks mandarin, old enough...'
If you even bother to think more, you'd realise that it was just that tine line between him governing and him staying in Sentosa... That was his fight he could not lose. And timing was on his side. Now, if the population would have been more educated, Barisan Socialis would surely prevail then.
Close shave eh?
So you have to realise certain things in politics... from MM himself. He was really kinda political outcast, and he struggled, and the title of father of Singapore carried him far enough to where he need to be. The second or third LKY might not be that lucky. Firstly, they have to survive in the political apathetic environment due to the first LKY; secondly, they have to survive LKY himself.
Thirdly, they'd already migrate if they could... You see...
So it's really luck if this second LKY fulfills the followings:
-Tahan the idiotic environment;
-Enters PAP and/or pull up by LKY;
-Haven't migrate/ most probably kena-ed stuck in Singapore;
-Haven't been suffering under PAP and turn against the incumbent;
-Still breathing.
But if you really wanna read, I suggest you find chance to talk personally with MM Lee himself... Most Singaporeans seldom get much beyond the stories by reading... If MM Lee still cares for Singapore, he'd truthfully tells you certain things...
Then you'd know how risky is the future of Singapore. And why he's so particular about talents... though how he perceive talents and such is another thing altogether.
It was reported that '...he who is like MM Lee would be a leader...'...
But the truth is... ... -
and definately u have every right to do so. but not everyone thinks in such terms.Originally posted by Elfred:Hehehehe... ...
Your hope will hardly come through...
Don't you get it, a nation is indeed not really supported by patriotic people. It's not exactly simple as you suppose. Why in Singapore would people be so... funny in thinking...?!
My parents and siblings... totally adversely influenced by the society, who are the typically don't think but nie nie wanna win type.
In a way, I have quite nothing that'd emotionally tie me back to Singapore should migration turns out to be a way.
So many years have passed, and so many patriotism and contributions... But even the blind should at least feel something is not right.
I am quite determined my next generation will not end up in such pathetic environment. They must be able to think, and that means they'd need good peers. Maybe I'd send them off to their grand-parents in China.
i for 1 ... take a much different stance. my loyalty is to S'pore and i'm sure we'll be able to turn the stone somehow.
but.. i do respect ur opinion. and it's definately not wrong... juz different from mine -
Is politics just self-interest and financial gains to you?Originally posted by Gun:What precisely are those issues.....truely?
What is politics? Just to gain power and control? Hehehehehe...
About China, I ain't accertain they are up to some menace... but the point is pretty simple. What if they are up to some menace?
What precisely are those issues?
Simply put it, from a deck of cards, draw out one and that issue is: randomise-able leadership/s.
Second draw from the same card and the issue is: Historical burdens that the rich might unload, but not exactly by all the 1.Xbillion Chinese...
A whole list from corruption to population and even to environment and human rights bla bla bla. Things are, at the various timing, going either way.
But the most important thing we gotta take note here is, unless you can be definitely sure things are well-hedged with China, make sure you get well hedged first before assuming any course of action as if everything is well insured...
China might blow itself up... but before that, who's to say what'd happen...? -
ok ... ur post is really long... i'll break it up into parts ...Originally posted by Elfred:Of course.
If I work for their premier, I'd even help China kill corruption down significantly. Born wrong place, wrong time, wrong family. Hehehehehe...
I can't, of course tell you exactly everything, but I can only tell you that Singapore in thr currently state is in no position to interfere or effect much balance... I suspect MM Lee intends to play middleman for US and China (afterall, isn't Singapore 70% Chinese). But I am quite certain it will not work now. China-US is not Weaker China-Taiwan situation.
ASEAN itself is still too weak to do much. And... regretfully speaking, many academic experts could be still day-dreaming...
You have to understand this, in order to effect a balance where Singapore stands to gain a lot, China would have to be re-educated. How'd a nation be re-educated? Not only so, in order to have a balance of interest, there must be a really good buffer, especially when US is already quite shaky.
If you say we should see China's growth as better opportunities... then you should first ask yourself one simple question:
Do you expect the Chinese premier to recognise the possibility of elevating the entire China whereby rich-poor gap will be totally minimised?
I tell you straight away... The answer is No.
Will China hence be a democratic nation?
I can also tell you straight away... Fat hope.
Why?
Because simply, in oriental China, it's Chinese to establish hierachies down to the very simplest social units. In order to hold these social units, you cannot democratised the way US divide itself into states. Doing so sow the seeds for huge mega rebellions, and social orders totally disrupted. But you cannot remove the Chinese characteristics as a whole.
Why?
Because if you cannot reduce rich-poor gap consistently, empty stomach always fire emotional flames and that creates political potential for chaos...
So in order to understand what you are dealing with, you'd have to understand even deeper.
Once you realise that, you'd find that if the world cannot contain China comfortably, the world must be ready. While the world is finding a balance to China, trying to close one eye on China's political issues is going to be a very bad idea... for it'd simply push China to an extreme. When the Hello Kitty grows to a full-flung jaws biting tiger... How is the world going to tame it?
Do you know that the more you conveniently let China by, the more the people's perception of greater China, China supremacy, Chinese arrogance and not forgetting... the urge for revenge...
The premier and the 1.5 billion of emotions... ...
You ain't dealing with North Korea with the ultimate world police in charge. You are dealing with an entire civilisation with the power to directly topple the police.
I can't, of course tell you exactly everything, but I can only tell you that Singapore in thr currently state is in no position to interfere or effect much balance... I suspect MM Lee intends to play middleman for US and China (afterall, isn't Singapore 70% Chinese). But I am quite certain it will not work now. China-US is not Weaker China-Taiwan situation.
S'pore definately won't effect the balance, no Singaporeans will dare think of it that way. The market in China is fragmented and information is assymetrical. Culture difference between Western and Chinese companies are still wide. In economical sense, this serves as an oppotunity. how? i dunno. i havent given it much thought.. maybe when the govt hires me .. i can help and give some input
but definately, the opp. exist. I know its juz ideas.. i'll give more valuable input when i have the time (my thesis is killing me thus far lol)
part II
Will China hence be a democratic nation?
I can also tell you straight away... Fat hope.
Why?
Because simply, in oriental China, it's Chinese to establish hierachies down to the very simplest social units. In order to hold these social units, you cannot democratised the way US divide itself into states. Doing so sow the seeds for huge mega rebellions, and social orders totally disrupted. But you cannot remove the Chinese characteristics as a whole.
debatable, very debatable. Yes China is a confucianistic country with layers of hierarchies. However, lets look at Korea. In fact Korea ranks highest in terms of confucianistic principles. Democracy does exist in S.Korea.
adding to this, there has been a shift in the cultural dimension of Chinese towards a more westernised view.
in terms of these changes, would not democracy be possible
part III
Once you realise that, you'd find that if the world cannot contain China comfortably, the world must be ready. While the world is finding a balance to China, trying to close one eye on China's political issues is going to be a very bad idea... for it'd simply push China to an extreme. When the Hello Kitty grows to a full-flung jaws biting tiger... How is the world going to tame it?
Do you know that the more you conveniently let China by, the more the people's perception of greater China, China supremacy, Chinese arrogance and not forgetting... the urge for revenge...
the world is closing an eye b;coz economies need China. they are the basis of the competitive advantage for heaps of MNCs. i have no comments on China being a tiger or what-so-ever, coz that is juz your assumption.
oo .. hahaa.. shorten the post pls... gets really confusing -
i can;t see your point here. it's all personal assumptions (which is not wrong.. everyone is entitled to their own). but like i have advocated, with development comes improved human rights, etc.Originally posted by Elfred:Is politics just self-interest and financial gains to you?
What is politics? Just to gain power and control? Hehehehehe...
About China, I ain't accertain they are up to some menace... but the point is pretty simple. What if they are up to some menace?
What precisely are those issues?
Simply put it, from a deck of cards, draw out one and that issue is: randomise-able leadership/s.
Second draw from the same card and the issue is: Historical burdens that the rich might unload, but not exactly by all the 1.Xbillion Chinese...
A whole list from corruption to population and even to environment and human rights bla bla bla. Things are, at the various timing, going either way.
But the most important thing we gotta take note here is, unless you can be definitely sure things are well-hedged with China, make sure you get well hedged first before assuming any course of action as if everything is well insured...
China might blow itself up... but before that, who's to say what'd happen...?
the current situation has seen the wealth quite spread out among the eastern part of China. the western part is slowly moving along with recent improved policies. -
Then you should join YP and put your loyalty in good use.Originally posted by ben1xy:and definately u have every right to do so. but not everyone thinks in such terms.
i for 1 ... take a much different stance. my loyalty is to S'pore and i'm sure we'll be able to turn the stone somehow.
but.. i do respect ur opinion. and it's definately not wrong... juz different from mine
BTW, this has nothing to do with loyalty. It's just how I want my kids to be. Even the top brasses have their children flying all over the world.
But ultimately, grand words ain't necessarily for grand things to come, especially such words. PM Lee might be happy to hear this, anyway. I was at the hall yesterday, boy... he seems to get more white hairs nowadays.
What he'd need would be political talents, not just loyalty.
BTW, if you're the type who believe in 'work to the top' in politics... Singapore would only go that far...
Believe me, neither MM Lee nor PM Lee 'worked to the top' as, say, perhaps Mr Ong Ah Seng or perhaps Patrick Tay Teck Guan did...
For MM, if he really did so, by the time he entered politics, the war would have been over. Besides, which sec-general would be crazy enough to send a candidate with totally no huge grassroot support, no background, no Elvis-look, no appropriate communication basis with the largest voters base, and no know how to please people...
Emm... the influence of systematic education in such... thought process is really... detrimental.
If you are a leader, Benny, you should be in that position. If you are good in tools you should be using tools, not repairing tools.
Just because MM Lee couldn't speak Chinese doesn't mean he couldn't make it. If he can sing like Zhang Guo Rong but he governed Singapore as if Durai fools around with NKF... Hahahahahahaha... Anyway, how come nobody asks for Durai to spit out those donors' monies???