Article - The Myth of Moderate Islam
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Allow me to sidetrack.
Originally posted by Atobe:
We call Jesus, Christ the King, not Christ the President.
[b]
God is democratic - as he has given Humans an 'intelligent mind' that is supposed to be able to discern and make decisions, which allow us to have choices.
It is Man, in his weakness, capitulated his own rights by submitting himself to the authority of another Human, who claims divine authority from God.
Yeah, God gives us free will. There are countless choices you can make, yet only a few are correct.
God wanted His church to have a living authority, so that's why we have a Pope. So it is not weakness to obey him, but it is humility. And God loves humility. -
God is a living God..by implying that God needs a living authority are you trying to imply that God is dead and we need a mere human to represent Him?
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If we are going to debate on this, let's take it to Eternal Hope shall we?Originally posted by vito_corleone:God is a living God..by implying that God needs a living authority are you trying to imply that God is dead and we need a mere human to represent Him? -
Anyone read the ST abt this guy Bak? A bloody refugee leeching off the British gahmen, but welcome the bombings against the British.
Bakri The Bid
GIVEN that insurance doesn't usually cover force majeure, it's unlikely anyone who bought a ticket to hear Yusuf al-Qaradawi speak in Manchester this August will be able to get their money back.
As the Express says in its front-page news ("BANNED"), the paper's "crusade" has deterred the Egyptian-born Muslim cleric from speaking in the UK.
It can be no mere coincidence that just 24 hours after the Express "demanded" that Qaradawi be barred entry to the UK he has decided not to appear.
But the paper could not have done it alone, and appreciates the 95 per cent of its readers who called for Qaradawi to be banned in the paper's opinion-forming poll.
The reason why most papers only publish the result in percentages is because it would be too embarrassing to admit that only a handful of people actually bothered to phone in. But this is a vital issue - one in which the Express's crusade has seen off the jihad - and we hear that callers "flooded" the paper's phone lines.
Buoyed by that success, the paper produces another poll today: "Is Blair doing enough to halt Muslim fanatics?"
Such questions are usually more loaded than a 21-year-old George W Bush at a frat party, but we spot room for some confusion given that Blair is the surname of our beloved leader and of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair.
Of course, neither of them is doing enough. So the Sun has pulled on its chain mail and joined the fight. Splashed over its cover page is a picture of the unlovely mad mullah, the "Muslim fanatic" Omar Bakri Mohammed and the cry: "SEND HIM BAK."
The Sun is angry that the "poisonous cleric" has spouted the opinion that we Britons are all to blame for the terrorist atrocity in London.
But before you hand yourself over to the authorities, take a look at Bakri's words. "I blame the British government," says the Syrian-born polemicist, "and I blame the British people."
Thanks to various human rights acts Bakri is entitled to give full throat to his odious opinions - and thanks to the British system he's also entitled to ?00-a-week income support and to have the rent on his London home subsidised.
The Sun also thinks it's important for us to know that Bakri's house is worth ?00,000 - although how its price has been affected by the recent bombs perhaps the Mail can work out. He has his council tax paid and drives a Ford Galaxy on which he pays no insurance, gets free specs and NHS prescriptions.
Quite right that Tory MP Julian Brazier tells the Mail ("CLERIC: BOMBS ARE OUR FAULT!"): "He's abused our hospitality in the most outrageous fashion. He should be put on a plane."
Clearly, Bakri is a malevolent and contemptible presence, however the big worry is not that he voices his offensive opinions but that anyone listens to such vitriol and pays it any credence. But, sadly, as recent events have shown, some do... -
In the first place, the bombings would not even have taken place if there were no British troops on Iraqi soil. Same applies to the Spaniards.
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whinners like you are like the europeans who talk but get nothing done, at the end of the day its america and britain that goes in and gets the job done while the useless germans and french just sit down at their desks in brussels writing letters to terrorists telling them how "upset" they are. appeasement and concession solves nothing. if nobody went in i think you'll probably be in a world filled with even more terrorists. we must crush the insurgents with an iron fist eg. sadaam/stalin/mao not one single terrorist or insurgency uprising was staged because those scums feared the brutality of those leaders. soft leaders only bring about the downfall of stability.
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If we are going to debate on this, let's take it to Eternal Hope shall we?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:If we are going to debate on this, let's take it to Eternal Hope shall we?
is there any point to when i don't buy your story and you dont buy mine? do not try to force your ideology or beliefs onto others here. trying to do so will only invite another ultra long bashing like the benedict thread. -
Well, then you will only be replacing one terrorist for another.Originally posted by vito_corleone:... appeasement and concession solves nothing. if nobody went in i think you'll probably be in a world filled with even more terrorists. we must crush the insurgents with an iron fist eg. sadaam/stalin/mao not one single terrorist or insurgency uprising was staged because those scums feared the brutality of those leaders. soft leaders only bring about the downfall of stability.
I do, however, agree with you on one point. After having read the Prospect Magazine article i linked to earlier, and having read the interview included in that article, i can see no other way of dealing with them other than to either kill them or lock them up for a looong looong time. After a proper trial of course. Not like guantanamo.
Unless, of course, we want to be living under sharia law. -
I really want to hear from some of our Singapore Muslims. How do they reconcile their brand of Islam with the Koran?
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Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
Oh Christ! another President in the making ?
Allow me to sidetrack.
We call Jesus, Christ the King, not Christ the President.
Yeah, God gives us free will. There are countless choices you can make, yet only a few are correct.
God wanted His church to have a living authority, so that's why we have a Pope. So it is not weakness to obey him, but it is humility. And God loves humility.
Unfortunately, to the agnostic and to the aetheist, 'GOD' is a figment of Man's imagination, in his own confused state of inpotency, of superstitions, of ignorance, of fear of the unknown, of directionless - not knowing Man's destiny and own Being.
Did 'GOD' create 'Man' or did 'MAN' create the notion that there exist a 'God' ? -
Where can I find this verse?
Death to all unbelievers of Islam? -
Koran 5:33Originally posted by maggot:Where can I find this verse?
Death to all unbelievers of Islam?
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land
Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost
Koran 58:5
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them: for we have already sent down Clear Signs and the Unbelievers will have a humiliating Penalty
To understand the verses, you may wish to visit the following site:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist2.html
For some alternative views of Islam and the Koran - ( caution required )
The history of Islam, Muhammad and the Koran
http://www.bibleprobe.com/muhammed.htm
Truth about Islam and the Koran – it will shock and surprise you
http://www.keithhunt.com/Islam.html -
This part stands out:
My response is that a distinction must be made between the
Moslem people in general and the Islam's teachings in particular.
The same applies for any religion. For example, the vast
majority of Catholics reject their church teachings on the
suppression of "heretics," abortion, divorce, birth control,
celibacy, and women ordination. But their rejection of such
teachings does not alter their church position, because the
Catholic Church, like Islam, is not a democratic institution
which reflects the thinking of the laity. Rather, both
institutions are governed by the autocratic authority of their
leaders. -
i highly agree. in fact if you did do some research until reccently they sanctioned the condemnation of all non-catholics and once condemned the entire netherlands to death during the inquisition years for "heresy". seriously this is not an anti-catholic post but rather an anti-catholic leaders post.
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it does seem more logical to think of the universe as an entity created by a God than to come up with nonsense theories about how some big bang somehow manifested itself into a solar system or something.Originally posted by Atobe:Oh Christ! another President in the making ?
Unfortunately, to the agnostic and to the aetheist, 'GOD' is a figment of Man's imagination, in his own confused state of inpotency, of superstitions, of ignorance, of fear of the unknown, of directionless - not knowing Man's destiny and own Being.
Did 'GOD' create 'Man' or did 'MAN' create the notion that there exist a 'God' ? -
Hey, can you guys bring your christian/'is there a god' discussion somewhere else? You know how such discussions usually turn out. Please don't taint the thread.
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i say get in there and kill'em good. sometimes people are quick to bash dictatorships like hitler's reich and stalin's mad federation but they very often forget that it was because these leaders were ruthless and decisive enough to surpress the instability and disruptive forces that their states somehow suffered NO such crazy, mindless attacks. honestly, if you compare the brutal CCP and the corrupt and decadent but "democratic" KMT from china's history, i'd say if not for the CCPs iron fist china would not be enjoying the same economic boom and stability it has today. just look how chiang kai shek and his "democratic" croonies made a mess out of china and then taiwan.Originally posted by lwflee:Well, then you will only be replacing one terrorist for another.
I do, however, agree with you on one point. After having read the Prospect Magazine article i linked to earlier, and having read the interview included in that article, i can see no other way of dealing with them other than to either kill them or lock them up for a looong looong time. After a proper trial of course. Not like guantanamo.
Unless, of course, we want to be living under sharia law. -
i agree.Originally posted by lwflee:Hey, can you guys bring your christian/'is there a god' discussion somewhere else? You know how such discussions usually turn out. Please don't taint the thread. -
Originally posted by lwflee:
It is the weakness of MAN, who cannot understand his own BEING that caused him to be superstitious about issues that he cannot understand with his finite intelligence, fear of the unknown due to his limited experience, and vanity about his own finite useful existence in this world.
Hey, can you guys bring your christian/'is there a god' discussion somewhere else? You know how such discussions usually turn out. Please don't taint the thread.
From this premise, it leads MAN to create an all 'encompassing SUPER BEING' that he can refer to - for all things, events, and issues that he cannot fathom - and in this MAN created 'BEING', he termed it 'GOD'.
A 'GOD' that is created to bring fear and discipline to whole communities, societies.
Following the creation of this 'BEING' - (and through the finite and selfish minds of those who create such a 'BEING' ) - there will evolve the formulation of values, practises, rules and regulations to worship this 'BEING'.
It is so convenient for MAN to create a regime of rules and regulations concerning practises to worship 'GOD' - which will result in the enslavement of whole groups, communities, societies, and nations - all of whom are gullible enough to be so fervent and uncritical of their 'GOD' and the regime of management and practises that the worship entails.
Why should MAN need RELIGION at all, when it can only subject MAN into enslavement ?
Besides 'the Myth of Moderate Islam' - is there a myth in the entire concept of religion, and its service to Society ? -
I seriously think this poor chap got brainwashed by people
Keep thinking of God and religion
If there is a god why need weapons?
Oh god just talk to me last night, I am his son! Do you all believe this? -
Hmm..much food for thought.
The interesting(and scary to some) thing is that whatever country that muslims are migrating to and settling down in will eventually have a sizable muslim population which may even become the majority, due to their breeding patterns (they're doing it non-stop like rabbits). This during a time when birth rates are generally falling. The demographics in these countries, including Singapore are going to look very interesting after a few generations. I sometimes wonder if that is why our gahmen are trying to artificially increase the number of chinese in singapore by letting any tom dick and harry in and offering them citizenship like free gifts. -
An interesting point of note that Sookhdeo has not properly elucidated is that Islam does not actually have a formal comand and control system. The Catholics have their Pope, the Buddhists have their Dalai Lama, but Islam does not have an Imam who would be the final authority on what's what.
So what is the implication of this fact? Sir Gerald Templer, High Commissioner in Malaya at the time of the Emergency, said that the solution to the problem "lies not in pouring more British troops into the jungle but in the hearts and minds of the Malayan people". It's a lot more difficult to win the hearts and minds of Muslim people if you do not have any one person or body that they would listen to - they can either choose to listen to a moderate Imam, or they can choose to buy into the rantings of a radical Imam, since both hold equal standing within the structure of Islam.
As Sookhdeo noted, the imperative is to turn the whole world to Islam. Any alternative system would be viewed by these radicals as an attempt to Levi's, McDonalds's and Hollywood good Quran-following Muslims to death.
On the other hand, the individualistic structure of Islam is a double-edged sword. If Islam is open to interpretation with no checks and measures presented by a central authority, what's to say that we can't convince non-radical muslims to take the moderate path?
Along those lines, this approach may have to apply at different levels.
At the aggressive end, radicals tend to take part in terrorist activities upon the promise of the glory of martyrdom. In the current American approach to nabbing these terrorists, they're delivering such martyrdon in crowing whenever they catch one terrorist. The more effective solution would be to make the little bastards simply disappear. How can the radical Imams proclaim someone as a martyr when the poor sod could well have been run over by a pork-laden garbage truck and stuck into the mortuary as a Mohammad Doe?
On the softer end of the spectrum, persuasion could be used. For example, according to the 9/11 commission report, the attacks were funded through hawalas, because OBL's funds were frozen. The question is, how many of these hawaladars were actually conscious of the fact that their activities were being used to fund the attacks? I would wager that the vast majority of them would have carried out the transaction on the good faith that a labourer was simply using the cheapest and surest means of remitting money to his wife and eight kids. What if Western banks could offer a viable alternative to put hawaladas out of business? After all, the banks make the majority of their profit from loans interest and investments, rather than surcharges levied on individual customers.
I disagree with Sookhdeo's assertion that there is no such thing as moderate Islam. The nature of the religion is so decentralised that no interpretation of Islam can be ruled out as a myth. We need to take advantage of that decentralised system and use that clever invention called marketing to best support the message of the moderate Imams and make the moderate path most palatable to the followers of the religion on an individual basis, which is exactly what the religion operates on in the first place.