Singapore aircraft equipment?
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well generally i feel that the RSN has a overall poor AAW capability. The Baraks on the MCV constitute the best AAW system in the RSN. Frankly speaking I am not confident of the survival of the PV/APV/MGB in a high air threat intensity environment. Besides the missile, the inadequacy of the RSN radar to fulfill the air space surveilliance and management function is obvious.
Area air defence is something we sorely need. As of now, I think the RSN is very dependent on the RSAF for its air defence cover and air/surface picture compliation -
The location of the rubber dinghy (It is call a seaboat by the way)is on top of the MCV engine room. The engine room is already quite cramped already and the addtional space avilable when the MCV was first built has been taken up by the installation of the Barak system
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Feels damn good to be out of that Tekong shithole, heh heh.. ok, now what's this about our AAW being inadequate? Its true that the Barak is currently our best system, which would not be good against really scary weapons like the Sunburn or Moskit, but are we really going to face up against these weapons? Not likely. Malaysia and Indonesia do not have them, neither are they likely to acquire them in the near future, partly because these weapons are not suitable for our coastal waters. What are we up against, then? Exocets, Sea Skuas, and other ASMs of these types. The Barak is well able to handle these sort of weapons with its anti-missile capability.
On top of that, our ships aren't meant to operate too far from our coast, as we are not really looking for a power projection capability. With our current ships, we only have a brown-water capability, and air-cover is to be expected from the RASF. So I dont see any problems we would encounter in the AAW arena.
Oh, nut when the Frigates come though, they would give a green water capability to our navy, and thus they would be operated further from our coast, which would give them decreased aerial coverage, that's why they would be armed with the more capable Aster 15s. -
I brought up the Sunburn once. However, even I agreed that its not suitable for operations in our region. Those missiles are carrier killers, long range, supersonic speed. Not to mention a huge warhead. Ships in our region rarely get larger than a destroyer, Sunburn would be massive overkill.
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The role of the RSN is to secure our sea line of communication as well as to assist the army in land sea operation. I will limit my discussion to the current RSN ORBAT and exclude the possibility of external help
Choke point to our SLOCs exist, the northern entrance of the Straits of Malacca, the northern part of the South China Sea, the Sunda and Lombok Straits. These chokepoints guards our sea lanes to critical resources and are proximal to potential adversaries. The air force, inspite of air - air refueling and extended range of its aircraft, will be strained to provide air cover at this distance. Convoys need to be escorted and the RSN is central to this. The Barak is not an area air defence system. The RSN is confident of the capability of the Barak and belives that it can handle the exisiting missile threat. However the target need to be found before the Barak can be employed and to do this require an adequate AD radar system. Against skilled pilots trained in maritime strike, trust me I have seen how easy it is for them to penetrate an air defence screen when your radar coverage is inadequate.Our air assets in time of conflict will be strained for the variety of roles expected of it. The RSN does not have a monopoly on air assets and there is no gurantee of an air umbrella. To expect the Barak and existing AD systems to provide a cover over convoys, task forces and during land - sea operation would be unrealistic. This discussion is academic in view of the aquisition of the Frigates which represent a quantum leap in terms of our AAW capability. -
I believe RSN has acknowledged this weakness. ST Marines has a new stealth OPV design in the pipeline, but gut feeling says that it might be one of the design RSN is looking at for a new fleet of Stealth warships to complement the La Fayettes. The Stealth corvettes/frigates will be some 80+ meters with AAW/ASW capability.Originally posted by solaris:The role of the RSN is to secure our sea line of communication as well as to assist the army in land sea operation. I will limit my discussion to the current RSN ORBAT and exclude the possibility of external help
Choke point to our SLOCs exist, the northern entrance of the Straits of Malacca, the northern part of the South China Sea, the Sunda and Lombok Straits. These chokepoints guards our sea lanes to critical resources and are proximal to potential adversaries. The air force, inspite of air - air refueling and extended range of its aircraft, will be strained to provide air cover at this distance. Convoys need to be escorted and the RSN is central to this. The Barak is not an area air defence system. The RSN is confident of the capability of the Barak and belives that it can handle the exisiting missile threat. However the target need to be found before the Barak can be employed and to do this require an adequate AD radar system. Against skilled pilots trained in maritime strike, trust me I have seen how easy it is for them to penetrate an air defence screen when your radar coverage is inadequate.Our air assets in time of conflict will be strained for the variety of roles expected of it. The RSN does not have a monopoly on air assets and there is no gurantee of an air umbrella. To expect the Barak and existing AD systems to provide a cover over convoys, task forces and during land - sea operation would be unrealistic. This discussion is academic in view of the aquisition of the Frigates which represent a quantum leap in terms of our AAW capability. -
I see. Agreed in this case then. I once felt that it would be good for Singapore to have a couple of Aegis Destroyers, modified frigates with a reliable anti-air capability. Aegis frigate maybe? haha.
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I think the Spanish is aquiring 4 - 6 frigates equiped with the AEGIS system. AEGIS LITEOriginally posted by Shotgun:I see. Agreed in this case then. I once felt that it would be good for Singapore to have a couple of Aegis Destroyers, modified frigates with a reliable anti-air capability. Aegis frigate maybe? haha.
Having an AEGIS equiped frigate coupled to a good missile system would certainly make the fleet close to invulnerable against air threat. Nevertheless, the Americans will never sell us that I wonder whether the Israelis with their excellence in military electronics has come up with an AEGIS equivalent system Technology transfer would not be such a big problem with them 
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The spanish F100 AGEIS ship is more of the size of a destoryer rather than a frigate. It may be a little too huge for RSN. I think the MEKO design is not bad. The MEKO 100 AAW version can carry the state- of the art 3D Phased array antenna and a 2D air and surface search radar.Originally posted by solaris:I think the Spanish is aquiring 4 - 6 frigates equiped with the AEGIS system. AEGIS LITE Having an AEGIS equiped frigate coupled to a good missile system would certainly make the fleet close to invulnerable against air threat. Nevertheless, the Americans will never sell us that I wonder whether the Israelis with their excellence in military electronics has come up with an AEGIS equivalent system Technology transfer would not be such a big problem with them
The MEKO 200 AAW can carry 3D multi0function, fixed phased array radar (like the AGEGIS) and a 3D long rage phased array radar.
Perhaps RSN should look at these ships.... -
wonder if we were to buy AGEGIS destroyersOriginally posted by Joe Black:The spanish F100 AGEIS ship is more of the size of a destoryer rather than a frigate. It may be a little too huge for RSN. I think the MEKO design is not bad. The MEKO 100 AAW version can carry the state- of the art 3D Phased array antenna and a 2D air and surface search radar.
The MEKO 200 AAW can carry 3D multi0function, fixed phased array radar (like the AGEGIS) and a 3D long rage phased array radar.
Perhaps RSN should look at these ships.... -
Although destroyers are able to perform several roles in one(ASW, anti-air and anti surface warfare), makes it the reason why it's sought after. But I think in the context of SAF that's rather impossible because of the manpower needed to man it and also the cost of getting numberous in order to be effective.
I think the destroyers are mainly for blue-water patrols, not the ones we need in our region. The frigates that we will be getting would be sufficent. -
Actually, I read somewhere that the US already cleared the sale of Aegis systems to Singapore. It was also cleared to be sold to Taiwan, though Taiwan did not eventually recieve any.
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Just some info about the Aegis and Singapore.
Operations. The U.S. Navy uses the Aegis defense system on its cruisers and destroyers throughout the world, including the Arabian Gulf and Asia Pacific region. The system has already been sold or authorized for sale to Japan and Singapore.
http://www.taiwanstudies.org/tsi_publications/view_story.php3?333 -
that's a good newsOriginally posted by Shotgun:Just some info about the Aegis and Singapore.
Operations. The U.S. Navy uses the Aegis defense system on its cruisers and destroyers throughout the world, including the Arabian Gulf and Asia Pacific region. The system has already been sold or authorized for sale to Japan and Singapore.
http://www.taiwanstudies.org/tsi_publications/view_story.php3?333 -
The report is rubbish. Yes, Japan already has got AGEIS, not Singapore. Singapore could not have gotten authorisation for AGEIS yet since RSN doesn't have a warship big enuff to fit one on.Originally posted by lionelow:that's a good news -
The report is rubbish. Yes, Japan already has got AEGIS, not Singapore. Singapore could not have gotten authorisation for AEGIS yet since RSN doesn't have a warship big enuff to fit one on. The closest RSN will ever going to get in the next couple of years is whatever air search radar they plan to install on the La Fayettes. Otherwise RSN will have to rely on E-2C for long range radar pictures.Originally posted by lionelow:that's a good news -
With regards to the AEGIS system being authorise for sale to Singapore.....does anyone actually have any idea of the minimum tonnage a warship must have before installation of the system. Transfer of AEGIS technology does not mean that Singapore need to aquire the SPY system that you sea on the ARLEIGH BURKE and TICONDERAGA.
Technology is an intellectual propertyPersonally I am skeptical of the report shown on the link given but we should think of the basic assumptions that we sometime make regarding military equipment, tactic and doctrine -
The AEGIS system comprises mainly the electronically steered phased array radar that has to be mounted on the superstructure of the warship. The royal Australian Navy was at one stage contemplating adding AEGIS to the ANZAC frigates (MEKO 200 design). However, the frigate was deemed too small for the radar. I believe US has come up with a lighter version of the radar. I think the Spanish F100 uses the lighter version. Even the F100 is a good 5000+ ton warship. The ANZAC frigrate is some 3,600 tons yet deemded too small for AEGIS. As for Japan KONGO AEGIS destoryer, the type is built to Arleigh Burke design (not entirely but resemblance is very high).Originally posted by solaris:With regards to the AEGIS system being authorise for sale to Singapore.....does anyone actually have any idea of the minimum tonnage a warship must have before installation of the system. Transfer of AEGIS technology does not mean that Singapore need to aquire the SPY system that you sea on the ARLEIGH BURKE and TICONDERAGA.
Technology is an intellectual propertyPersonally I am skeptical of the report shown on the link given but we should think of the basic assumptions that we sometime make regarding military equipment, tactic and doctrine
It took Japan a while to get the US to approve the sales of AEGIS. What is the chance of Singapore getting approved of such technology - at current stage, almost impossible. Besides, the US will deem it as an overkill for Singapore. No RSN warships can carry the phased array radars. Unless the US has some secret "son-of-AEGIS" which is about a tenth in current size and weight and will perform at least 70% of the current AEGIS system, I don't see Singapore will ever get such system. The closest to such a highly capable air search/fire control radar would have to be some phased 3D radar mounted on top of a mast. I think the Europeans do have such radars, like the French Sea Tiger Mark 2 air and surface search radar on La Fayettes, and Thales Nederland SMART-L long-range air and surface surveillance and target indication radar. At best, RSN may want to install the Thales Nederland APAR Active Phased Array Radar. APAR is a multi-function radar(AEGIS like). But all these active phased array radars are meant to control Standard 2 Missiles to engage tactical ballastic missiles. Wonder RSN would actually need such capabilities. -
i think RSN will need especially our neighbour aquires quite a number of SU-30Originally posted by Joe Black:The AEGIS system comprises mainly the electronically steered phased array radar that has to be mounted on the superstructure of the warship. The royal Australian Navy was at one stage contemplating adding AEGIS to the ANZAC frigates (MEKO 200 design). However, the frigate was deemed too small for the radar. I believe US has come up with a lighter version of the radar. I think the Spanish F100 uses the lighter version. Even the F100 is a good 5000+ ton warship. The ANZAC frigrate is some 3,600 tons yet deemded too small for AEGIS. As for Japan KONGO AEGIS destoryer, the type is built to Arleigh Burke design (not entirely but resemblance is very high).
It took Japan a while to get the US to approve the sales of AEGIS. What is the chance of Singapore getting approved of such technology - at current stage, almost impossible. Besides, the US will deem it as an overkill for Singapore. No RSN warships can carry the phased array radars. Unless the US has some secret "son-of-AEGIS" which is about a tenth in current size and weight and will perform at least 70% of the current AEGIS system, I don't see Singapore will ever get such system. The closest to such a highly capable air search/fire control radar would have to be some phased 3D radar mounted on top of a mast. I think the Europeans do have such radars, like the French Sea Tiger Mark 2 air and surface search radar on La Fayettes, and Thales Nederland SMART-L long-range air and surface surveillance and target indication radar. At best, RSN may want to install the Thales Nederland APAR Active Phased Array Radar. APAR is a multi-function radar(AEGIS like). But all these active phased array radars are meant to control Standard 2 Missiles to engage tactical ballastic missiles. Wonder RSN would actually need such capabilities. -
Actually, I was thinking more like an integrated Aegis network. Since Singapore is soooo "network" crazy. Most likely, our replacement for our E-2C, eg, wedgetail, would be integrated into a land, air, and sea, target acquisition, C4I systems. Basically, Airborne and Surface radar information, constantly relayed between the 3 services's internal network, that distributes it out to all the various combatants. Considering the latest developement in broadband technology, ie. Powerline, I feel that the SAF is clearly considering hi-tech warfare of such. Where information must be relayed to all combatants within a blink of an eye.
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Actually, I was thinking more like an integrated Aegis network. Since Singapore is soooo "network" crazy. Most likely, our replacement for our E-2C, eg, wedgetail, would be integrated into a land, air, and sea, target acquisition, C4I systems. Basically, Airborne and Surface radar information, constantly relayed between the 3 services's internal network, that distributes it out to all the various combatants. Considering the latest developement in broadband technology, ie. Powerline, I feel that the SAF is clearly considering hi-tech warfare of such. Where information must be relayed to all combatants within a blink of an eye.
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Actually, I was thinking more like an integrated Aegis network. Since Singapore is soooo "network" crazy. Most likely, our replacement for our E-2C, eg, wedgetail, would be integrated into a land, air, and sea, target acquisition, C4I systems. Basically, Airborne and Surface radar information, constantly relayed between the 3 services's internal network, that distributes it out to all the various combatants. Considering the latest developement in broadband technology, ie. Powerline, I feel that the SAF is clearly considering hi-tech warfare of such. Where information must be relayed to all combatants within a blink of an eye.
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Got a question, did RSAF ever look at equipping most if not Block 50 Vipers with Rafael Litening pods?
Secondly, what is going to happen to the Block 15 Vipers? Anybody heard any whispers? -
~Network Centric Warfare~ Tactical datalink system do exist right now in the RSN of course Link 11/Link 14 but what you are talking about is definitely something that is under deveopment I feel. I think the main hinderance to it is the bandwidth avilable for data transfer and the power of the processing computerOriginally posted by Shotgun:Actually, I was thinking more like an integrated Aegis network. Since Singapore is soooo "network" crazy. Most likely, our replacement for our E-2C, eg, wedgetail, would be integrated into a land, air, and sea, target acquisition, C4I systems. Basically, Airborne and Surface radar information, constantly relayed between the 3 services's internal network, that distributes it out to all the various combatants. Considering the latest developement in broadband technology, ie. Powerline, I feel that the SAF is clearly considering hi-tech warfare of such. Where information must be relayed to all combatants within a blink of an eye. I am not an engineer though Though not a tactical level, the RSAF and RSN monitoring and survillence systems are closely integrated and in event of war, these systems will probably be the first source of warning and information for the combatants -
i tot they under going falconup programme?Originally posted by Joe Black:Got a question, did RSAF ever look at equipping most if not Block 50 Vipers with Rafael Litening pods?
Secondly, what is going to happen to the Block 15 Vipers? Anybody heard any whispers?