Singapore aircraft equipment?
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The Block 15 Vipers have gone through the Falcon-Up program. They are simply strengthened structurally. However, the avionics are still unchanged.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:i tot they under going falconup programme?
RSAF was considering the prospect of selling the 7 A/Bs to Thailand at 1 stage. I guess the deal did not fall thru. Then there were rumuors that RSAF might increase the A/B fleet by purchasing the Pakistanis A/Bs which were being held in the US. That didn't go through.
Now RSAF Vipers are essentially Block 52, I wonder what the fate of the 7 A/Bs will be. They are not logistically economical to maintain since there are only 7 of them. ST Aero would love to upgrade them but I think RSAF said no. Are these Vipers being forgotten. I haven't spotted any Block 15 Vipers for a while in SG sky. The ones that I keep seeing are Block 52 based in Tengah. -
RSAF/RSN does not have Link 11/14. They were offered by the US (after Singapore lobbyed the US govt to release the technology after a long time) but Singapore turned to Israel for a similar secured data-link for the RSAF fleet of aircraft. I presume RSN would followed suit.Originally posted by solaris:~Network Centric Warfare~ Tactical datalink system do exist right now in the RSN of course Link 11/Link 14 but what you are talking about is definitely something that is under deveopment I feel. I think the main hinderance to it is the bandwidth avilable for data transfer and the power of the processing computer
I am not an engineer though Though not a tactical level, the RSAF and RSN monitoring and survillence systems are closely integrated and in event of war, these systems will probably be the first source of warning and information for the combatants
Well as broadband technology matures, we can be certain that DSTA and Mindef will employ such technology for Network Centric systems. So far, only the US or maybe some European countries can afford such high bandwidth systems.
The Network centric systems that the US is building are some really smart systems. They consider each radar and weapon system as a node and each are tasked with area of responsibility. If one node is taken off-line, eg. being moved or disabled by enemy's fire, then the network centric systems will alter some of its nodes to cover the offline nodes, kind of like "plug and play" and AI combined...
I believe what Singapore have is is data sharing/secure data link system in a network environment and that does not constitute to the network centric system concept. However, it is a start -
Actually, I believe most of the hardware are already in place for such a system. The entire concept that I had in mind included the monitoring of logistic situation as well as automated defense systems.
These Automated defense systems are literally the sentry guns that we see in many games nowadays. Machine guns, Auto-GLs, concealed within critical infrastructure, to prevent sabotage or intrusion. Basically, whatever information obtained from whatever source, be it the soldiers, armored force, airborne radar, naval sensors and sonars or motion sensors, will be relayed to a war room, where the information can be processed, and approved for relay and action by Generals. -
What you have discussed sounds more like "Information Centric" C4I rather than the new "Network Centric" the USN and British are pursuing. Network centric involves some form of AI where a weapon system is controlled or coordinated by some central system which controls other detection or survelliance systems. You can almost think of it like the Star Trek Borgs.Originally posted by Shotgun:Actually, I believe most of the hardware are already in place for such a system. The entire concept that I had in mind included the monitoring of logistic situation as well as automated defense systems.
These Automated defense systems are literally the sentry guns that we see in many games nowadays. Machine guns, Auto-GLs, concealed within critical infrastructure, to prevent sabotage or intrusion. Basically, whatever information obtained from whatever source, be it the soldiers, armored force, airborne radar, naval sensors and sonars or motion sensors, will be relayed to a war room, where the information can be processed, and approved for relay and action by Generals. -
Honestly, I would still prefer to have whatever decisions to be made by a man, a general at least. Not some AI, that sends a "sensor" node to cover another one when it gets disabled. AI can be defeated as it is a fixed programme.
In anycase, I'd rather chop someone's head for a massive screw up, than to remove the RAM chips off a computer. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
The notion of AI means that the computer will learn to adapt to different situation. AI machines are smart enough to learn "like a human". However, they are limited by the amount of sensors and the data coming through from the sensors. It is however, still a good compliment to human manned systems.
[B]Honestly, I would still prefer to have whatever decisions to be made by a man, a general at least. Not some AI, that sends a "sensor" node to cover another one when it gets disabled. AI can be defeated as it is a fixed programme.
B]
Potential of AI application could see a vastly improved SAM system, eg. quick adaptation to electronic jammings, initiate different scan frequecies, evaluate threats from SAM suppression systems, etc.
Thus, the notion of a Network Centric system is not simply a rule based system, but one with some smarts that can adapt to situation itself without human intervention. -
http://defence-data.com/aa2000/aapage15.htm
base on the information above.... would it be correct for me to assume that ST have the capability to integrate isreali Python IV and Derby with RSAF F-16 to a full Helm sight off bore attack capability??
Or is such a capability been fully established with the original Falcon that might have undergone falconone upgrade.... -
As far as I know, RSAF A/B Vipers are upgrade with the Falcon-up structural upgrade only. ST Aero did "borrow" an A version for testing the Falcon-one upgrade. Furthermore, the news is a little out-dated because in the end, ST Aero partnered with BAe instead of Lockheed Martin. IAI have a similar upgrade for the A/B versions. So far neither ST Aero or IAI have secured any order (at least officially).Originally posted by tripwire:http://defence-data.com/aa2000/aapage15.htm
base on the information above.... would it be correct for me to assume that ST have the capability to integrate isreali Python IV and Derby with RSAF F-16 to a full Helm sight off bore attack capability??
Or is such a capability been fully established with the original Falcon that might have undergone falconone upgrade....
I think Viper52 might have more info on this one. Furthermore, last I read from Flight International (quite a while ago) was that RSAF did not make any commitment to upgrade A/B Vipers with Falcon one. I think they are more interested in intergrating some component of the Falcon One into the C/D Vipers, such as HMS for 4 gen WVR missiles.
Another thing is that there are "sightings" that some C/D Vipers already are equipped with the magnetic sensor attached on the canopy which sits right on top of the pilot's seat which could only mean that they might already been modified to equiped DASH-3 or even the JHMDS. -
The problem is as Joe Black has said there are no firm committments for the various F-16A/B upgrade kits on the market, other than the MLU taken up by the European NATO allies. With the flyaway price for a brand new Block 50 inclusive of a whole package of support and training at around US$30 million per aircraft, its not difficult to see why.Originally posted by Joe Black:Another thing is that there are "sightings" that some C/D Vipers already are equipped with the magnetic sensor attached on the canopy which sits right on top of the pilot's seat which could only mean that they might already been modified to equiped DASH-3 or even the JHMDS.
Yes, FalconOne and the F-16ACE essentially allows compatiblity with DASH3 and Python IV. The problem again, is the competitiveness of brand new Block 50/52s offered by LM, from what I gather its increasingly likely RSAF will not opt for upgrading its A/Bs, its just not feasible to upgrade 7 aircraft.
As for the cockpit magnetic sensor Joe Black has mentioned, finally someone here has spotted that and mentioned it here. I saw photos of the C and D which appeared at the last PLA Open House, and both of them had the "dot" on the canopy. Not too sure if all are fitted thus -
I just read a segment about the FalconOne thing - this time from the AirForce Monthly (April 2002 edition). The Falcon One prototype (RSAF F-16A Serial 880) was on static displayed during the AA2002. Segment noted that RSAF would be most unlikely to upgrade the A/B Vipers with Falcon One kits. Instead Mindef funded ST Aero to research into Man-Machine interface and the Falcon One prototype will be used as a research aircraft for future C/D Vipers upgrades.Originally posted by Viper52:The problem is as Joe Black has said there are no firm committments for the various F-16A/B upgrade kits on the market, other than the MLU taken up by the European NATO allies. With the flyaway price for a brand new Block 50 inclusive of a whole package of support and training at around US$30 million per aircraft, its not difficult to see why.
Yes, FalconOne and the F-16ACE essentially allows compatiblity with DASH3 and Python IV. The problem again, is the competitiveness of brand new Block 50/52s offered by LM, from what I gather its increasingly likely RSAF will not opt for upgrading its A/Bs, its just not feasible to upgrade 7 aircraft.
Viper52 is right to comment that why would RSAF pay some $10mil for the upgrade of 7 planes where a new C/D Viper is only going to cost around $25mil.
I don't think ST Aero nor IAI with their Falcon ACE will get many contracts to modify existing Vipers form other international operators. Thailand and Indonesia are the only 2 possibilites that I can see. -
both viper52 n j black is rite. if we upgrade to 7 -16a/b , we r like throwing money around it.
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I finally found a closeup photos enuff to prove that RSAF has indeed integrated some HMS (unconfirmed sources said its DASH3 and Python 4) system unto the DJ vipers.Originally posted by Viper52:As for the cockpit magnetic sensor Joe Black has mentioned, finally someone here has spotted that and mentioned it here. I saw photos of the C and D which appeared at the last PLA Open House, and both of them had the "dot" on the canopy. Not too sure if all are fitted thus
Thanks to duotiga83 who posted the URL of the website of the Pitch Black 2002, there is a close-up side view shot in the gallery of an RSAF Viper which the magnetic sensors are clearly shown attached unto the top of the canopy. See
, see the thingy sitting right on top of the pilot's seat, those are the magnetic sensors that detect the helmet movement in 3D space. Well Viper, I think out guesses are no longer just guesses...
BTW, if the funny guy HARIMAU is reading this, check out this pic
it clearly shows RSAF Viper carrying an AIM-9M/S missile. Sorry you are wrong. Guess what, they also carry LANTIRN too 
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Heh, Joe Black, I've seen this series of pics a long time liao...along with many many more from PB 2002, both from official ADF sources and RAAF mates who took photos at Amberley. Actually the pics show a lot more than the magnetic sensors, LANTIRNs and AIM-9M/S, but I won't go into detail here, since you gotta know what to look out for to spot the items, and seeing as folks like HARIMAU are amateurs(even though he claims to have defended his country for 10 years!!), I won't help them along...
Also, someone working with the Ops section at Amberley gave me LOTs of juicy details of the RSAF stuff. Which, of course I will not repeat here as they were told to me in confidence.
So erodeth the RMAFs superiority in having HMS...
in fact the "superiority" never existed for long, its only now that its been proven that it is gone... -
Interesting photos esp. the antenna array in front of the cockpit, data link part of the Derby missiles system ?? 
Comments anyone ??
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Originally posted by thomasct:
Sorry to disappoint, but those antennas are for the APX-109/113 AIFF system. They were "as delivered" on all RSAF Block 52s, and are standard fit to RSAF, RoCAF, RJAF Vipers, along with the European F-16MLU and US ANG F-16ADFs...
Interesting photos esp. the antenna array in front of the cockpit, data link part of the [b] Derby missiles system ??
Comments anyone ?? [/b] -
[/b]
Let me rephrased my comment , the antennae array is guiding / data link BVR missiles.
[/b]
See below for details.
[Image: GEC]
AN/APX-113.
It consists of a Beam Forming Network and a combined Interrogator/Transponder unit and operates via four (rather striking) Forward Fuselage Antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers" are probably the most noticeable exterior changes for the F-16A/B after completion of the Mid-Life Update. AIFF provides Mk. XV or Mk. XII interrogation and response.
Benefits include interrogator/transponder capability (previously transponder only), the support of BVR weapons (e.g. AIM-120) delivery in excess of radar limits, increased range of 100 nm, relative position of friendlies, and reduced chance of fratricide (friendly fire).
The AN/APX-113 was also selected for Greek F-16C/Ds and the Japanese FSX.
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The APX-113(V)/APX-111(V) CIT will give IDF, in addition to onboard radar and GCI/ACI, the ability to autonomously detect and identify airborne targets at extended range. The APX-113(V)/APX-111(V) is credited with a maximum effective range of 100nm, presumably in the active (interrogation) mode. This would enable the aircraft to more fully exploit the stand-off advantages offered by its TC-2 (Sky Sword II) medium-range BVR missile armament. -
Well, to be honest, I really don't know if the 109/113 is compatible with the Derby. But IMO I don't think it is...
I do know that recently Janes(?) published a closeup of 2 small blade antennae on a upgraded Chilean F-5E, identifying it as the datalink for the Derby. -
It also seems like RAAF has updated their Hornets with APX-111 just like our Vipers.... see this pix
BTW, this is the first time I read about using IFF for datalink update of BVR missiles. -
To Joe Black ,
Well people have the impression that the Derby, AIM-120 , MICA etc are control by the aircraft radar which is not accrute.
Actual the missiles are RADIO
guide to target area where the missile seeker can searched & locked (hopefully) into the enemy aircraft.
At best, the latest aircraft can handle up to 3 AA missiles ??? at one time
It is not so simple as fire & forgets
Except at short distance up to 10 -15 km where the AAM seeker can locked on to the enemy aircraft before being fire off the aircraft itself.
That why I say in a earlier post that BVR missiles system can be detected and jammed / decoyed etc before the missile can get near enough even to switch its seeker to search for the enemy aircraft.
To Viper 52 ,
AN/APX-113 with correct software programming should be able to handle Derby missiles.
Israelis technology tend to be compatible with US / NATO
By the way , our RSAF antenna design is different from the US version.
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As far as I know there are 3 versions of the F-16 "bird slicer" AIFF. The RSAF's is common with RJAF. Theres another type, found on the European MLU and RoCAF Block 20. Then theres the last type, shown on the photo above. I believe thats the ANG blade type, but I've seen US Vipers carrying the same AIFF blades as the MLU as well.Originally posted by thomasct:By the way , our RSAF antenna design is different from the US version.
Joe Black, I think thats RAAF Bug thats gone through the HUG upgrade. The USN is putting its C-Bugs through an AIFF upgrade as well -
Other than the difference in number of blades and the shape of the blades, aren't these 3 version of AIFF basically the same? The RAAF HUG'ed bugs seem to use the similar blades as RSAF Vipers except they have 5 and our Vipers only have 4. The blades are also resting on a protruding base. Wonder what are the differences between all these seemingly similar and yet different AIFF systems.Originally posted by Viper52:As far as I know there are 3 versions of the F-16 "bird slicer" AIFF. The RSAF's is common with RJAF. Theres another type, found on the European MLU and RoCAF Block 20. Then theres the last type, shown on the photo above. I believe thats the ANG blade type, but I've seen US Vipers carrying the same AIFF blades as the MLU as well.
Joe Black, I think thats RAAF Bug thats gone through the HUG upgrade. The USN is putting its C-Bugs through an AIFF upgrade as well
BTW, the RAAF bugs are going thru phase 2 of the HUG, which involved replacing the APG-65 with APG-72. I wonder why don't they just wait for a year and go with the AESA version? Furthermore, do you know if they are also going to install the HMS to be used with ASRAAM? Man, it will be a darn interesting Pitch Black 2003/2004 to watch if both RSAF and RAAF decide to include high-offbore "missiles" in the exercises. It would be a real treat to have RSAF pilots using their DASH3/Python4 against RAAF bugs with JHMDS/Asraam combo. -
I was browsing the US Air Force website when i came across this picture which may be of interest.
http://www.af.mil/photos/images/020827_55.jpg -
Photo is AIFF Type 3 described in my post above. Aircraft is Royal Thai AF F-16ADF from the Peace Naruesan IV batch. These are the ex-USANG F-16ADFs transferred to Thailand in lieu of the F-18s after Thailand was unable to pay for the Hornets.Originally posted by EXCO:I was browsing the US Air Force website when i came across this picture which may be of interest.
http://www.af.mil/photos/images/020827_55.jpg -
According to F-16.net (349) site, the ADF version "bird slicer" is actually Teledyne/E Systems Mk.XII Advanced IFF system (APX-109) and not Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) used in the MLU and Block 50 aircrafts.Originally posted by Viper52:Photo is AIFF Type 3 described in my post above. Aircraft is Royal Thai AF F-16ADF from the Peace Naruesan IV batch. These are the ex-USANG F-16ADFs transferred to Thailand in lieu of the F-18s after Thailand was unable to pay for the Hornets. -
Dug more stuffs from the net. RAAF Hornets are upgraded with APX-111, see this URL:http://www.aaicorp.com/corporate/press/jsecst_australia_release.html
BAe APX-111:
BAe APX-113:
Northrop Grumman APX-109:
http://www.ngnavsys.com/Html/APX-109
Looks like RSAF Vipers have the APX-113 instead of APX-111.
From all the specs, the 3 look suspiciously close to what they do. Can anyone spot the diff between these 3 AIFF?