HOCK KEE HOUSE
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Hi guys! Can anyone tell me more about this issue? I read from the papers that the residents there are given 1 month to move. What's the meaning of this? From the papers the land acquisition act usually give residents up to five years to move.
I know that there is a need to relocate the residents soon so that the construction of the Circle Line can proceed as planned but to give the residents only one month is too short a notice isn't it?
Anyway, they might only be given up to $100k as compensation. Is this reasonable? Especially given the lead time for them to move? -
The church concerned was finally compensated on the correct use class namely car park not road reserve at S$17,000, a jump from S$1.00 originally awarded by the minister. Minister is human and can be grossly inaccurate.
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Our Land Acquisition Acts are such bullies~!Originally posted by robertteh:The church concerned was finally compensated on the correct use class namely car park not road reserve at S$17,000, a jump from S$1.00 originally awarded by the minister. Minister is human and can be grossly inaccurate.
Inhumane, disgusting and dirty. -
It seems that from the report, it was only known recently that Hock Kee house is build on marine clay with a concrete foundation base which is dangerous. The excavation works will cause the building to collapse. The residents are given 1 month's notice to move rather than the usual 5 years due to the delays in excavation works from the stoppage of works after the Nicoll Highway Incident. To make matters worse, Nishimatsu is claiming for damages from LTA for the delays. In order not to incur unneccessary damages for the delay which WILL EAT INTO OUR TAXPAYERS' MONEY, LTA is forced to give only 1 month's notice.
I think it is premature and to make a very uneducated remark that LTA is bullying the residents of Hock Kee House. The Circle Line which was built for the benefit of the citizens, and DO WE WANT TO WAIT 5 YEARS FOR THE CIRCLE LINE CONSTRUCTION TO CONTINUE AND PAY DAMAGES FOR THE 5 YEARS TO THE MAIN CONTRACTOR? Together with the construction time estimated at 2 years, we will have to wait a total of 7 years for the circle line to be up and running!!!
If that is to happen, wouldn't the good people of Singapore complain again?
So if you are LTA, what would you do? I think we should all look at the bigger picture before grumbling.... -
The whole MRT team has all the soil reports of MRT lines so what is new?Originally posted by ndsef:It seems that from the report, it was only known recently that Hock Kee house is build on marine clay with a concrete foundation base which is dangerous. The excavation works will cause the building to collapse. The residents are given 1 month's notice to move rather than the usual 5 years due to the delays in excavation works from the stoppage of works after the Nicoll Highway Incident. To make matters worse, Nishimatsu is claiming for damages from LTA for the delays. In order not to incur unneccessary damages for the delay which WILL EAT INTO OUR TAXPAYERS' MONEY, LTA is forced to give only 1 month's notice.
I think it is premature and to make a very uneducated remark that LTA is bullying the residents of Hock Kee House. The Circle Line which was built for the benefit of the citizens, and DO WE WANT TO WAIT 5 YEARS FOR THE CIRCLE LINE CONSTRUCTION TO CONTINUE AND PAY DAMAGES FOR THE 5 YEARS TO THE MAIN CONTRACTOR? Together with the construction time estimated at 2 years, we will have to wait a total of 7 years for the circle line to be up and running!!!
If that is to happen, wouldn't the good people of Singapore complain again?
So if you are LTA, what would you do? I think we should all look at the bigger picture before grumbling....
In any event the MRT Team should have a good consultant and qualified engineers to design the whole protective cofferdam complete with all the monitoring instruments around all excacated sites so what is new?
If they have the project team holding site meetings they should have discovered soil movements or unusual settlements long ago at the beginning of the project and taken precautions long before now.
So why wait till they are stopped by the Nicol Highway case? If in between Nicol Highway stoppage and project start-up date there has been a delay, delay certification should be recorded and contractor made answerable with project team asked to explain.
Why blame this period of project delay on Hock Kee residents who in any event are customers to be treated with due consdieration not some contractors to be penalised. -
Yes MRT should have the soil reports of the MRT Lines... NOT THE SURRONDING BUILDINGS.Originally posted by robertteh:The whole MRT team has all the soil reports of MRT lines so what is new?
In any event the MRT Team should have a good consultant and qualified engineers to design the whole protective cofferdam complete with all the monitoring instruments around all excacated sites so what is new?
If they have the project team holding site meetings they should have discovered soil movements or unusual settlements long ago at the beginning of the project and taken precautions long before now.
So why wait till they are stopped by the Nicol Highway case? If in between Nicol Highway stoppage and project start-up date there has been a delay, delay certification should be recorded and contractor made answerable with project team asked to explain.
Why blame this period of project delay on Hock Kee residents who in any event are customers to be treated with due consdieration not some contractors to be penalised.
Why build unneccessary protections here and there to hold up one building?
Yes they have a project team, well so did the Samsung in the case of the leaning building at Church Street.
No one is blaming the Nicoll Highway stoppage as a delay. The delay now is due to the discovery of Hock Kee House's foundation, which is beyond the control of both LTA and Nishimatsu. The Hock Kee House residents are definitely not blamed.
I feel that the question is not the time of one month to move. The problem is with the compensation. Yet no one has brought it up in this thread. IF the residents are compensated say, $500,000 each instead of $100,000 on top of the state valuation then I guess no one will complain. The Clinic for example has already a drop in number of patients visiting, and by the way, I seriously don't think it will take a month to renovate a new clinic. -
Originally posted by ndsef:
Unfortunately, soil reports will have to be taken AROUND the sites of the MRT line - this includes all buildings that can be affected by the MRT Line.
Yes MRT should have the soil reports of the MRT Lines... NOT THE SURRONDING BUILDINGS.
With HOCK KEE HOUSE only SEVEN METERS from the tunnel of the MRT line, surely the soil reports would have included the area near to this building.:
It was reported that HOCK KEE HOUSE is constructed on top of marine clay, and on foundation slabs instead of deep piles.
Why build unneccessary protections here and there to hold up one building?
Yes they have a project team, well so did the Samsung in the case of the leaning building at Church Street.
No one is blaming the Nicoll Highway stoppage as a delay. The delay now is due to the discovery of Hock Kee House's foundation, which is beyond the control of both LTA and Nishimatsu. The Hock Kee House residents are definitely not blamed.
Such a construction method is common in the building designs from the early 1940s through the 1960s, and especially suited for construction on marine clay.
Many older buildings along the North-East Line, North-South, and East-West MRT Lines are also built on the same design and also on soft marine clay - especially those in the heart of the Financial District.
Yet, with the NE, NS, and EW MRT lines intersecting each other at City Hall and Raffles Place - (and with the lines running through older buildings along Robinson Road-Cecil Street, North Bridge Road-South Bridge Road, Serangoon-Upper Serangoon Road, Victoria Street-Sims Avenue-Eunos) - those old buildings along these roads seems to be unaffected.
Why is HOCK KEE HOUSE causing such acute concern, when similar buildings built on similar structural designs - and also on marine soil - have not caused a need for the entire building to be demolished ?:
Is the concern of the residents merely about the sum to be compensated ?
I feel that the question is not the time of one month to move. The problem is with the compensation. Yet no one has brought it up in this thread. IF the residents are compensated say, $500,000 each instead of $100,000 on top of the state valuation then I guess no one will complain. The Clinic for example has already a drop in number of patients visiting, and by the way, I seriously don't think it will take a month to renovate a new clinic.
Was it only about the EXTRA COMPENSATION over and above that to be paid for the property ?
It was already made known that compensation will be based on MARKET VALUE, with the value to be assessed by a licensed property valuer, and yet the various strata owners remain worried - and reported by Channel NewsAsia as follows:
Most do understand the need to move out because of safety concerns but they also feel they have few options when relocating.
A day after the shock announcement by the LTA, Hock Kee House tenants and residents are finding themselves in a very complicated situation.
The LTA had acquired the property and is set to demolish it before the Circle Line construction near the Paya Lebar MRT station resumes.
Hock Kee House will be unsafe once the deep excavation works begin.
But the residents say it is not just a simple matter of packing up and leaving.
They have engaged property consultants and even lawyers to help them out.
The tenants and residents have two major concerns: one is the value of their property right now; the second is that they feel a month is simply not enough time for them to move out.
Said property consultant Angela Lee, "Normally, for a seller in order to complete a case, it takes about five months from the start of the property they want to buy. So based on one month it is a bit short for them to move out from their present situation."
Said Ng Hock Chau, who owns property in Hock Kee House, "Because my purchase price is high -- half a million – I still owe the bank S$300,000. If the price they give is lower than that I make a big loss."
Another property owner, Kelvin Tan, said, "At this point, we're not willing to sell our property. This is our investment; we will wait until a better opportunity for market price and we sell. If the government wants us to take back (the property) now according to market price then our investment is going to incur a heavy loss."
Many have yet to sign the agreement to give up their property and are reluctant to do so.
Seriously, this entire exercise by LTA in acquiring the entire building seems very odd, especially when similar properties of the same age, structural design, and soil conditions have existed in the other lines.
Could it be the property was targetted for its strategic location, and when it has a lease for 999 years - (nearly as good as a Freehold Property) ?
Interestingly enough, HOCK KEE HOUSE sits at a strategic site:
- bounded by Paya Lebar Road, Sims Avenue and Geylang Road;
- diagonally across City Plaza;
- and in the good company of Tanjong Katong Complex and the space age design of the Singapore Post Office;
- it is also near the Paya Lebar MRT station.
After the original Hock Kee House is demolished, will any new commercial cum residential building not fetch a much higher price ?
Given the understanding of the present, and the potential value of the future, what should be the compensation value payable to the present strata titled property owners ?
nsdf, surely the Ruling Party a.k.a the present Singapore Government and the LTA do not need you to be their spokesman - (again) - this time ?
Channel NewsAsia: Hock Kee House residents worried LTA compensations not enough : 12 August 2005
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/162849/1/.html
Channel NewsAsia: Hock Kee House near Circle Line construction to be demolished: 11 August 2005
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/162710/1/.html -
There is a duty of care on the part of LTA to all owners of surrounding lands and under this duty, appropriate protective measures should be taken to avoid causing damage.
Short notice may be justifiable now due to danger but LTA might have caused its own delays in taking protective measures on this property. It should give details on delays of its own and not give any excuses such as the Nicol Highway stoppage. Should such an excuse be given the Hock Kee residents have the right to rebut it and ask for enhanced compensation.
Compensation should not be limited to moving expenses but fairly valued taking into account the delays or negligence of LTA to provide for enhanced compensation.
The Kim Keat Church land at dispute was finally valued as car park lots reversing earlier valuation based on road resere after appeal due to public outcry. Like in the NKF case people know their rights and if their rights have been ignored sooner or later there would be an outcry and demand for justice.
Facts assumed by government valuers can be wrong. LTA should be more transparent now and not seek to deny affected residents of justice. It should try to value the site for compensation fairly taking into account potential commercial puirpose to which such a strategic MRT land might be put to use in the future by LTA. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
An interesting point you have raised. It is insightful that perhaps the whole urgency to have tenants evicted from Hock Kee is just a smokescreen to acquire the land under the pretense that the circle line will render the structrual integrity unsound.
Is the concern of the residents merely about the sum to be compensated ?
Was it only about the EXTRA COMPENSATION over and above that to be paid for the property ?
It was already made known that compensation will be based on MARKET VALUE, with the value to be assessed by a licensed property valuer, and yet the various strata owners remain worried - and reported by Channel NewsAsia as follows:
Most do understand the need to move out because of safety concerns but they also feel they have few options when relocating.
A day after the shock announcement by the LTA, Hock Kee House tenants and residents are finding themselves in a very complicated situation.
The LTA had acquired the property and is set to demolish it before the Circle Line construction near the Paya Lebar MRT station resumes.
Hock Kee House will be unsafe once the deep excavation works begin.
But the residents say it is not just a simple matter of packing up and leaving.
They have engaged property consultants and even lawyers to help them out.
The tenants and residents have two major concerns: one is the value of their property right now; the second is that they feel a month is simply not enough time for them to move out.
Said property consultant Angela Lee, "Normally, for a seller in order to complete a case, it takes about five months from the start of the property they want to buy. So based on one month it is a bit short for them to move out from their present situation."
Said Ng Hock Chau, who owns property in Hock Kee House, "Because my purchase price is high -- half a million – I still owe the bank S$300,000. If the price they give is lower than that I make a big loss."
Another property owner, Kelvin Tan, said, "At this point, we're not willing to sell our property. This is our investment; we will wait until a better opportunity for market price and we sell. If the government wants us to take back (the property) now according to market price then our investment is going to incur a heavy loss."
Many have yet to sign the agreement to give up their property and are reluctant to do so.
Seriously, this entire exercise by LTA in acquiring the entire building seems very odd, especially when similar properties of the same age, structural design, and soil conditions have existed in the other lines.
Could it be the property was targetted for its strategic location, and when it has a lease for 999 years - (nearly as good as a Freehold Property) ?
Interestingly enough, HOCK KEE HOUSE sits at a strategic site:
- bounded by Paya Lebar Road, Sims Avenue and Geylang Road;
- diagonally across City Plaza;
- and in the good company of Tanjong Katong Complex and the space age design of the Singapore Post Office;
- it is also near the Paya Lebar MRT station.
After the original Hock Kee House is demolished, will any new commercial cum residential building not fetch a much higher price ?
Given the understanding of the present, and the potential value of the future, what should be the compensation value payable to the present strata titled property owners ?
nsdf, surely the Ruling Party a.k.a the present Singapore Government and the LTA do not need you to be their spokesman - (again) - this time ?
[b]Channel NewsAsia: Hock Kee House residents worried LTA compensations not enough : 12 August 2005
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/162849/1/.html
Channel NewsAsia: Hock Kee House near Circle Line construction to be demolished: 11 August 2005
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/162710/1/.html
[/b]
Unfortunately, only time will tell whether this is indeed the true motive of the LTA. And by that time, many will have forgotten this incident.
A very tidy arrangement if indeed true. -
Those tenants should not go to lawyers and ask for more bef Govt compensate.. Govt would purposely lower their compensation...
Just wait and see -
I doubt the low compensation is the real issue here. From what Atobe describes it, the situation appears somewhat dodgy.Originally posted by sbst275:Those tenants should not go to lawyers and ask for more bef Govt compensate.. Govt would purposely lower their compensation...
Just wait and see
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Last time when Senett Est was accquired, some ppl there engaged lawyers, end up less compensation... There was 1, end up compensated $1M w/o getting lawyerOriginally posted by iveco:I doubt the low compensation is the real issue here. From what Atobe describes it, the situation appears somewhat dodgy. -
There was this case where a young couple bought a landed property for $1,500,000.00 at Paya Lebar with their CPF and Bank loan. When LTA TOOK OVER THE PROPERTY because of the MRT line, they were compensated by LTA using the LTA approved valuer. The final outcome? The compensation paid was returned to CPF and bank. However the amount was greatly below the purchase price. The couple was forced by the bank to pay the difference and would be made a bankrupt if they cannot repay the loan. Their plight was made known to the government.
We do not really know what happened to them but this is definetely the case of bullying by LTA. -
That time NEL, land accquired, it was then still reasonable done...
Aft that, any such cases was screwed -
just wondering...
how come it took so long for LTA to do this that it has to give the tenants only one month? -
The resident should engauge a layer to look into this matter.... 1 month is a unreasonable time frame for the resident to move... inaddition the compension is also unreasonable..
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Not five years, dump~!Originally posted by ndsef:It seems that from the report, it was only known recently that Hock Kee house is build on marine clay with a concrete foundation base which is dangerous. The excavation works will cause the building to collapse. The residents are given 1 month's notice to move rather than the usual 5 years due to the delays in excavation works from the stoppage of works after the Nicoll Highway Incident. To make matters worse, Nishimatsu is claiming for damages from LTA for the delays. In order not to incur unneccessary damages for the delay which WILL EAT INTO OUR TAXPAYERS' MONEY, LTA is forced to give only 1 month's notice.
I think it is premature and to make a very uneducated remark that LTA is bullying the residents of Hock Kee House. The Circle Line which was built for the benefit of the citizens, and DO WE WANT TO WAIT 5 YEARS FOR THE CIRCLE LINE CONSTRUCTION TO CONTINUE AND PAY DAMAGES FOR THE 5 YEARS TO THE MAIN CONTRACTOR? Together with the construction time estimated at 2 years, we will have to wait a total of 7 years for the circle line to be up and running!!!
If that is to happen, wouldn't the good people of Singapore complain again?
So if you are LTA, what would you do? I think we should all look at the bigger picture before grumbling....
LTA could compensate more than what they have suppose to give and not just bullying people like that~! you understand?
what is ''WILL EAT INTO OUR TAXPAYERS' MONEY'' for so many donkey years, don't tell me that LTA is not making money. -
I disagree with you, ndsef.Originally posted by ndsef:It seems that from the report, it was only known recently that Hock Kee house is build on marine clay with a concrete foundation base which is dangerous. The excavation works will cause the building to collapse. The residents are given 1 month's notice to move rather than the usual 5 years due to the delays in excavation works from the stoppage of works after the Nicoll Highway Incident. To make matters worse, Nishimatsu is claiming for damages from LTA for the delays. In order not to incur unneccessary damages for the delay which WILL EAT INTO OUR TAXPAYERS' MONEY, LTA is forced to give only 1 month's notice.
I think it is premature and to make a very uneducated remark that LTA is bullying the residents of Hock Kee House. The Circle Line which was built for the benefit of the citizens, and DO WE WANT TO WAIT 5 YEARS FOR THE CIRCLE LINE CONSTRUCTION TO CONTINUE AND PAY DAMAGES FOR THE 5 YEARS TO THE MAIN CONTRACTOR? Together with the construction time estimated at 2 years, we will have to wait a total of 7 years for the circle line to be up and running!!!
If that is to happen, wouldn't the good people of Singapore complain again?
So if you are LTA, what would you do? I think we should all look at the bigger picture before grumbling....
While we might understand the possible need to move from Hock Kee House for the greater good of the public(maybe), 1 month is really too short a time. To be realistic, moving from one location to another, be it for commercial or residential purposes, definitely takes more than one month. If you were looking for a new office or home, it would be very reasonable to take at least 4-5 months just scouting around, not to mention getting the right unit and to negotiate a good price for it. How in the world can the LTA expect it to be done within 1 month?
Even by some miracle that you can locate an alternative site within 1 month, LTA should give a higher compensation higher than previously as unreasonable time was given to the Hock Kee residents to move. Imagine the opportunity costs incurred by the residents! I'm sure some of the residents still owe the bank for their housing loans. Insuffucuent compensation will incur losses for the residents!
Nsdef, I think you should put yourself in their shoes before making such a statement. I know that it is important to think of the bigger picture, but since LTA needed their help to move in such a short notice, more should be done to help all those inconvenienced by this incident. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
If we make a survey of all the properties that exist on top of - (or immediately adjacent to) - any MRT Station, it is very significant to note that the properties are owned by the Government, or Government Linked Companies, or those Companies that has very close relations with the Government a.k.a the Ruling Party.
An interesting point you have raised. It is insightful that perhaps the whole urgency to have tenants evicted from Hock Kee is just a smokescreen to acquire the land under the pretense that the circle line will render the structrual integrity unsound.
Unfortunately, only time will tell whether this is indeed the true motive of the LTA. And by that time, many will have forgotten this incident.
A very tidy arrangement if indeed true.
It is unfortunate that the fate of Hock Kee House was already fixed when an MRT Station was to be built at its door step.
Can the Government allow or tolerate such a windfall to be reaped by those few Singaporeans who are the Strata-Title Owners of the building ?
The surprise remain over the fact that "in 2003, the Land Transport Authority discovered the building was resting on inadequate foundations to support the building" - (as reported in the Channel NewsAsia article of 11 August 2005) - and yet it only acted on demolishing the building with only ONE MONTH notice being given.
Hock Kee House near MRT Circle Line construction to be demolished
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/162710/1/.html -
Hey Atobe, seems I am right to make a comment on the size of the compensation. See, the residents are asking for double. This is a classic example that everything has a price, and in this case the price for them to shift out in one month is $200k, and their own valuations of their property, which I believe will never happen.
Valuations are usually done by neutral parties, as in, when you buy a house, it is the bank who does it and not the seller or the buyer. But in this case, the valuations will definitely be seen as biased, since it is the buyer (garmen) who will be buying over the property. But from the garmen pt of view, the seller's valuation will also be biased. So how? -
Originally posted by ndsef:
In a society that the government has moulded in its own image, in which only MONEY MOVES MOUNTAINS, can you blame the residents for asking the double the compensation that was offered ?
Hey Atobe, seems I am right to make a comment on the size of the compensation. See, the residents are asking for double. This is a classic example that everything has a price, and in this case the price for them to shift out in one month is $200k, and their own valuations of their property, which I believe will never happen.
Valuations are usually done by neutral parties, as in, when you buy a house, it is the bank who does it and not the seller or the buyer. But in this case, the valuations will definitely be seen as biased, since it is the buyer (garmen) who will be buying over the property. But from the garmen pt of view, the seller's valuation will also be biased. So how?
In any case, how much compensation will you give on the suddeness and stress placed on an eviction order that strikes you from out of a clear blue sky ?
Do you not think that a higher amount should have been considered in view of the on-going businesses that will have been disrupted, and the losses that the Strata-Titled Property Owners will have to bear in the event of the compensation being lower than the purchase values which are mortgaged ?
Who will bear the difference of this loss ?
Will it not be best to have valuation from at least three property valuers of some public standing ?
Alternatively, the records of similar properties sold within the vicinity of Hock Kee House, can be used to determine the value of this subject property.
It is not so difficult to achieve a fair arbitrated value, as there are set precedents for such matters.
It all depends on the Government, if they wish to be fair towards the Property Owners of Hock Kee Houser.
It will finally come to this reasoning - '$600,000 is PEANUTS' to a Public Person who enjoys the benefits of office, what is a sum of $200,000 for those put under duress ? -
I can't help imagining, if Nicol highway had not collapsed and prompted LTA to stop excurvation and do a detailed study of the soil and building around the circle line, will they discover the problem before Hock Kee house collapse?
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If that day came, it would be another Hotel New World scenario.Originally posted by Agressor:I can't help imagining, if Nicol highway had not collapsed and prompted LTA to stop excurvation and do a detailed study of the soil and building around the circle line, will they discover the problem before Hock Kee house collapse?
A side note, what about the Holland Village area? Will the buildings be safe for occupation when the tunnelling starts? -
No point employing your own valuers,
the govt want to pay how much, they already have set.. Get these ppl, they just pay you lesser -
Property valuations are decided on (I believe) using three methods, and one of the methods is what you posted, using records of similar properties sold within the vicinity. But what is vicinity? I had come across cases of that my clients had to fight it out with IRAS on the Annual Value of their property. Can you believe that IRAS actually concluded that a condo unit along Bt. Timah Road near Newton is the same as a condo found on Upp Bt. Timah Road near Hillview? Anyone in the property line would know the vast difference in value as well as district!!!Originally posted by Atobe:Will it not be best to have valuation from at least three property valuers of some public standing ?
Alternatively, the records of similar properties sold within the vicinity of Hock Kee House, can be used to determine the value of this subject property.
It is not so difficult to achieve a fair arbitrated value, as there are set precedents for such matters.
It all depends on the Government, if they wish to be fair towards the Property Owners of Hock Kee Houser.
IRAS gave my client a bloody high Annual Value (AV) which resulted in a higher tax.
The next method esp in cases where comparables are not present is valuation based on rental returns. In this case, the rental of the property will determine the value. I can only offer so much, as I am not in valuations either.
Valuations in my opinion is the most SUBJECTIVE assessment of a property!!! It depends on how the valuer puts his/her case across, esp in cases where comparables are not easily available.
Best of luck to the residents of Hock Kee House.....