Hie there...
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The threads that have been posted here are very illuminating. Most especially the ones about Islam. I was surprised to see one contributor not being able to distinguish between race and religion. Islam is not an exclusively Malay religion. Like Christianity, the Islamic faith encompasses Arabs, Malays, Chinese, Caucasians etc.
It is easy to follow the crude stereotypes that have been provided by the western press. For example, how many of us Chinese get frustrated when CNN's reports on China often have a condescending tilt to it, as if China can never be taken seriously?
While it is true that the recent spate of terrorism was carried out by Muslims, it is rather silly to brand Islam as being a religion that promotes violence and the killing of innocent civilians. Take this case in point, when a suicidal Palestinian explodes a bomb in an Isreali marketplace, the press would immediately highlight the Palestinian's faith. There's that word of terror: ISLAM.
But when a Lebanese fires a missile into Israel's border, no one thinks to question the Lebanese's faith. The attack is seen simply as a political fight. What many people don't know is that the majority of Lebanese Liberation Army are Greek Orthodox Christians.
During the 15th century, Crusaders who conquered Jerusalem managed to slaughter innocent civilians by the tens of thousands. One Christian historian even wrote that the streets of Jerusalem ran with blood that was ankle-high.
Yes. It is easy to condemn the Muslims and their faith Islam for being a violent religion. But how many of us actually care to learn about the cause of this? How many of us actually flinch when Israel deports millions of Palestinain civilians from their native homes? If you were in a Palestinian's shoe, would you sit on your laurels and wait for a miracle to happen? Of course, the more avid Bible-thumper would point to a prophecy in their scriptures. "GOD WILL RETURN ISRAEL TO THE HEBREWS"...in other words, it's all meant to be...
Islam has never promoted violence. I'm not a Malay, but I am a Muslim, and I totally condemn the attacks that were carried out in New York. My heart goes out to those people who lost their loved ones in the tragedy. I only wish that just as the Americans hanged the Christian militant, Timothy McVie, the world will see similar justice being done on Osama. Christian or Muslim or Jew, these "blacksheeps" need to be eradicated from the face of the earth...
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"Chinese" Singaporeans had define themselves as 'Singapore hua ren' not 'chinese (people of china)' Malay Singaporeans had not... Will Singapore hua ren fight for their religion against their country? Not a chance. But will malay...? probably.Originally posted by salivateforme:The threads that have been posted here are very illuminating. Most especially the ones about Islam. I was surprised to see one contributor not being able to distinguish between race and religion. Islam is not an exclusively Malay religion. Like Christianity, the Islamic faith encompasses Arabs, Malays, Chinese, Caucasians etc.
It is easy to follow the crude stereotypes that have been provided by the western press. For example, how many of us Chinese get frustrated when CNN's reports on China often have a condescending tilt to it, as if China can never be taken seriously?
While it is true that the recent spate of terrorism was carried out by Muslims, it is rather silly to brand Islam as being a religion that promotes violence and the killing of innocent civilians. Take this case in point, when a suicidal Palestinian explodes a bomb in an Isreali marketplace, the press would immediately highlight the Palestinian's faith. There's that word of terror: ISLAM.
But when a Lebanese fires a missile into Israel's border, no one thinks to question the Lebanese's faith. The attack is seen simply as a political fight. What many people don't know is that the majority of Lebanese Liberation Army are Greek Orthodox Christians.
During the 15th century, Crusaders who conquered Jerusalem managed to slaughter innocent civilians by the tens of thousands. One Christian historian even wrote that the streets of Jerusalem ran with blood that was ankle-high.
Yes. It is easy to condemn the Muslims and their faith Islam for being a violent religion. But how many of us actually care to learn about the cause of this? How many of us actually flinch when Israel deports millions of Palestinain civilians from their native homes? If you were in a Palestinian's shoe, would you sit on your laurels and wait for a miracle to happen? Of course, the more avid Bible-thumper would point to a prophecy in their scriptures. "GOD WILL RETURN ISRAEL TO THE HEBREWS"...in other words, it's all meant to be...
Islam has never promoted violence. I'm not a Malay, but I am a Muslim, and I totally condemn the attacks that were carried out in New York. My heart goes out to those people who lost their loved ones in the tragedy. I only wish that just as the Americans hanged the Christian militant, Timothy McVie, the world will see similar justice being done on Osama. Christian or Muslim or Jew, these "blacksheeps" need to be eradicated from the face of the earth... -
It's true that Singaporean Chinese identify themselves as "S'porean Hua Ren"...But it's somewhat ironic that the Malays are the ones who are native to the island. As history tells us, most Chinese were immigrants seaching for a better place in "nanyang"...
I won't generalise the issue by saying that ALL malays would necessarily give up their good sense to support religion at the expense of the country. I mean, look at the Nazis. Hitler had every intention to wipe out the Hebrew religion in Europe, and the German citizens supported him with their full hearts! You might ask why...well, Hitler used a very popular sort of method to win the hearts of his citizens. He used religion, more specifically, Christianity to support his racist and genocidal opinions. After all, it was easy to convince the people that Jews were "Christ-Killers" and that it was a Christian's duty to wipe them from the face of the earth. Fortunately for us, Germany lost the war. Not before it had sowed the seeds of anti-zionism, though.
Mad leaders often use religion to "convince" people of the "rightness" of their motives. Another stark example is Bosnia, where Serbin and Croatian soldiers believed that it was a heavenly mandate to destroy the Muslim populations in thier midst.
I do appreciate that you brought up the difficulty that some Malays may face in times of a crises, but instead of condemning the Malays for it, I think that we should be patient and understanding and try to assimilate all cultures, all races into one creed; Being a Singaporean. Careless stereotypes never work, I feel as deeply as you do in the wake of those terrorists' attacks, and I sincerely think that Osama (if he was the main culprit) should be hauled into the stricter Singaporean courts, be tried and then hanged from the noose.
You claim that you know many so-called Muslims who would mourn his death, but I for one would cheer the man's demise. In the eyes of Islam and all that is good in this world, that man, like his predecessors who had used religion to such blatant proportions, should pay for those innocent lives...
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All religion meant well, it is only human deeds that distort God's words and teaching. I agree that there is nothing wrong to be deeply devoted and faithful in one's religion. But at the expense of their homeland is unacceptable. To me, these so-call religious leaders had been making use of GOD to achieve their personal goals and interest.
Please enlighten me on these questions. Where the word Jihah (Holy war) comes from? And on what basis such war can be declared? What does this war achieve? Do other religions bare the same motive or idea? Can holy war be declared by tom, dick and harry or only by GOD? Beside GOD, can humans judge one another (excluding judges in the court of laws)? Should religious leaders be given the power and authority to judge and punish people?
If religions are more tolerant and respect each other. -
rest assured my friend.... the american leaders will also mourn the death of OSAMA... perhaps even more then the muslims themselve....Originally posted by salivateforme:It's true that Singaporean Chinese identify themselves as "S'porean Hua Ren"...But it's somewhat ironic that the Malays are the ones who are native to the island. As history tells us, most Chinese were immigrants seaching for a better place in "nanyang"...
I won't generalise the issue by saying that ALL malays would necessarily give up their good sense to support religion at the expense of the country. I mean, look at the Nazis. Hitler had every intention to wipe out the Hebrew religion in Europe, and the German citizens supported him with their full hearts! You might ask why...well, Hitler used a very popular sort of method to win the hearts of his citizens. He used religion, more specifically, Christianity to support his racist and genocidal opinions. After all, it was easy to convince the people that Jews were "Christ-Killers" and that it was a Christian's duty to wipe them from the face of the earth. Fortunately for us, Germany lost the war. Not before it had sowed the seeds of anti-zionism, though.
Mad leaders often use religion to "convince" people of the "rightness" of their motives. Another stark example is Bosnia, where Serbin and Croatian soldiers believed that it was a heavenly mandate to destroy the Muslim populations in thier midst.
I do appreciate that you brought up the difficulty that some Malays may face in times of a crises, but instead of condemning the Malays for it, I think that we should be patient and understanding and try to assimilate all cultures, all races into one creed; Being a Singaporean. Careless stereotypes never work, I feel as deeply as you do in the wake of those terrorists' attacks, and I sincerely think that Osama (if he was the main culprit) should be hauled into the stricter Singaporean courts, be tried and then hanged from the noose.
You claim that you know many so-called Muslims who would mourn his death, but I for one would cheer the man's demise. In the eyes of Islam and all that is good in this world, that man, like his predecessors who had used religion to such blatant proportions, should pay for those innocent lives...
You see.. OSAMA is now in deep deep shit.... the americans want him alive because he is the key to all the terrorist cells and their source of fundings, OSAMA is probably the only person alive that could help USA pinpoint the terrorist backing state..... there is no way the americans want him dead.... after blowing up the WTC... death would be cheap and would not prevent future attacks.... only by getting all the terrorist cells... their namelist and the names of those who backed OSAMA's organization can USA prevent another WTC....
HEREIN lies the problem..... the donors or supporters of OSAMA... probably wouldnt want the USA to find out about their involvement in the terrorist group... they probably would love to see OSAMA dead before he can divulge the name list to the americans... even his own terrorist cells might consider the man too much of a risk to be left alive and.... might just .... you know... send the holy man to heaven....
SO right now... OSAMA is in deep deep shit.... on the one hand... the americans want him... arrested, grilled, interrogated, trialed and probably hanged in the end... the ARABs and his former masters and sponsors would love to see the man dead before the americans found them out... through him.... -
To answer your questions, I would have to proselytize a little bit, but I promise that I will not go beyond clarifying your curiosity.
First, it is important to realise that the word 'Jihad' has often been mistranslated by ill-intentioned people (Muslim & non-Muslim)to mean Holy War. In fact, Jihad, if correctly translated really means: "a struggle against persecution", or "in defense of the faith".
Therefore, if a Muslim community is repressed or deported from their homes or have their families killed by an enemy, the Muslim is allowed to retaliate against the oppressors, but only as far as getting those rights back.
"Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors." (Holy Quran 2:190)
"If they stop, let there be no more hostility except towards wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:193)
Like I mentioned in my previous thread, some leaders have to use religion as a weapon in order to convince their followers of their cause. Hitler and Slobodan Milosevic (both Christians, I must add) honed this weapon down to an art, and look at where it landed them? Terrorism and religious fundamentalism are not exclusive to Islam alone. It is a phenomenon that must be eradicated from all faiths.
The Muslims call it Jihad, and claim that they have the right to fight against the injustices that have been committed on them in Palestine. The Americans call it a Crusade because Afghan terrorists killed their people and they want to hit back at those responsible, specifically Bin Laden. The Muslim Jihad and the Christian's Crusade seem to be two sides of the same coin.
Whether it is Hitler, Milosevic, Timothy McVie or Osama bin Laden, all these people should, as Tripwire mentioned, be tortured and then pay for the innocent lives with their own...
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Well, my feeling abt such teaching are cause of problems. Faith will last regardless of suppression or procecution. Both religion, teaches kindness and love... I'm not saying GOD is wrong or I doubted HIM. Could it be human whom add such a clause for their own interest?
If I got you right. Jihah can only be declared when muslims were forced to give up Islam or were killed because of their religion. Simply religion cause, right? Isreal and Palestine fought for land not survival, right? And Isrealis are not forcing Palestine muslim to give up Islam, correct? Israel allowed Muslims to pray at the 'shared' holy site, right? Muslim states had accused Israel of killing Muslims and being anti-Islam, any prove? WHAT is the different between Islam, Christian and jewish Hebrew? It should not be Jihah, but mortal's war. My impression is that muslims states had brought in religion to support their aggression. Muslims states had also been very aggressive to their neighbours. Look at what Iraq did to Kuwait? And who invites Iraq aggressors to visit Malaysia? Is Malaysia telling and warning Singapore that you could be another Kuwait?
Fact is Singapore like Isreal were surrounded by Muslims states and these muslims states had been threatening Singapore's survival......... -
Hi there,
You are very insightful. It's true that Palestinians and Israel's fight is really for land, and not a battle for faith. As I mentioned earlier, there are madmen out there who do use religion to fight their wars. I agree with you that most of the time, religion is twisted by men to be used as a weapon.
A lot of dictators have to use either religion, or a political cause to unite the people. Let's take for example China in its early days. Many of the people were uneducated and unknowledgable about politics. Most of them worried only about when the next rains would come so that they could harvest their crops. When Mao Zhedong was planning his Cultural Revolution, he knew this about his people. He realised that he had to use SOMETHING to whip up the sentiments of his citizens. Now, although he did not use Islam, Christianity or any sort of religion to accomplish his goals, he used Communism. With its teachings about COMPLETE EQUALITY, it managed to win the hearts and minds of the Chinese.
What I'm trying to say is that the Palestinians are in the same position as the Chinese were last time. They are uneducated and know nothing else but their religion. In order to unite the people, some leaders had to resort to religion to accomplish their goals of winning Palestinian land back.
The same goes for Adolf Hitler, who used Christianity to confer upon himself a holy mandate to destroy the Jews, and also Slobodan Milosevic, who said that his killing of innocent Muslim civilians was a Crusade. Same also for the Mao Zhedong when his cultural revolution toppled the Church and all other religions. History is scarred by the acts of these men, and Osama is one of those who will join these people in history.
[This message has been edited by salivateforme (edited 18 September 2001).] -
I hate to say this, but there could be a growing number of people thinking Islamic teaching will becomes a threat to future civilization. Anything the Muslims community could do to prevent further misunderstanding or even war?
The only word i learned from Islam is 'JIHAH'. It will be nice if Islamic teachers and Muslim states leaders start promoting "Love" instead of threatening a 'JIHAH' so often.
Oh, I'm a buddhist so I've got my share of 'attacks' from some christians. Not to complain but we should have a little more understanding of each other's religion
PEACE! Brother. -
I understand your confusion, bro. I'm not a Malay, but a half-Chinese. My faith is Islam, though. Like you, I hope that what the U.S and "most" of the world are doing right now will rid the world of war, violence and bloodshed. I really pray that peace will reign.
Maybe the wheel of dharma will turn itself into a brighter future...
Peace to you too...
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Think is quite smart of u to define jihad, Salivateforme.
What i think is that when pple's feelings are stirred up, they wil die for any cause tt they believe in. Juz like u said abt Mao's communist campaign, he stirred up pple's feelings of equality so that pple wil fight for their cause. They wil not mind dying if they can make their children lead a better life than ever b4.
Same for religion. Pple were mislead to believe that those that they killed were opposing their religion, and not beliving in their gods. They think the gods wil punish them or sth if they do not convert thse "ignorant" pple. This is exactly what happens in the book "The Royal Hunt of The Sun". It may be fiction, but it depicts the real life situation.
Leaders make use of this fact to get a lot of supporters. When against a govt, it is not tech that matters, but the numbers. Getting the whole population's support wil enable the leader to do anything he like without being persecuted. This is when the bad guys come over and take advantage to expolit it to others' disadvantage.
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