Chinese "Speaking" Only......? Or "Chinese" only ?
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I have since discovered that there are racists and idiots in this forum and in Singapore. Employers with such myopic views with eventually lose out because they select staff on racial grounds rather than on merit.
The only way is to upgrade your skills way above those of your Chinese competitors to get a foothold in the system. If you are far more capable and yet cheaper than your Chinese competitors, sooner or later, economic concerns will override even racism. I know it is not fair but as long as there are racists in our society there is not much we can do. -
When I was studying in Scotland, the Chinese restaurants there have 2 menus. One in Chinese and one in English. Guess right! The English one has more expensive prices than the Chinese one, and we get extra 10% discount if we place order in Cantonese.Originally posted by crazy monkey:the other day i went to malay stall to buy nasi lemak. got one malay auntie jump q and was served first. is the stall holder racist ?
The chinese takeaways also the same, we get our tea free but the locals have to pay 50 pence to get it.
It is racism if it is working against you. It is bonus when it is working for you. GET IT? -
Originally posted by mett:
This is exactly what an Indonesian Chinese had shared with me about their experience in yesteryear and today's Indonesia. They learn Bahasa Indonesia, many instinctively keep low profiles even in today's more tolerant environment, fully aware of their situation. So what did they do ? Did they go around demanding the entire Indonesian society to adapt to their way ?
You know what? That's what most of the minorities are doing. And their reward for that? "Sorry, position's already been taken up." See, for your ignorant mind's information, we minorities have been consistently discriminated no matter how hard we try to break out of the cycle. We study hard, get good degrees, heck, as YOU suggest, learnt mandarin. Some of us have tried so goddamn hard to conform to YOUR rules and procedures. But in the end, does it all matter? Not when the root of this is blatant racism. Ever wondered why minorities are rarely found to be successful? This is why. Opportunities limited. So not only are we subjected to stereotypes, preventive barriers are put up so that we stay in the poverty cycle that most of us are in and be stereoyped for eternity. So before you rebuke anyone for whining and not trying, please think again. Carefully.
Did they whine and expect kindness in return hving to adapt to a different culture ?
So what makes minority Indonesian Chinese (or for that matter ANY ethnic minority) any MORE different than your case ?
Barriers will always be there and prejudiece exists. The key difference here is how u learn to handle it and persevere. Rome was not built in a day and certainly not by whiners. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
U got one thing right: The economic factor.
The only way is to upgrade your skills way above those of your Chinese competitors to get a foothold in the system. If you are far more capable and yet cheaper than your Chinese competitors, sooner or later, economic concerns will override even racism. I know it is not fair but as long as there are racists in our society there is not much we can do.
like i said earlier, this takes precedence. -
For?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I agree, although I am Chinese myself. In fact, employers cannot employ only Chinese speaking persons when the job does not require it. It is fair enough to insist of Chinese speaking staff if you are employing a tutor in Mandarin...that's logical, but if you looking for a driver or someone to pack your things, what does it matter as long as both of you speak English?
They certainly CANNOT only employ persons of a particular race...I would make a police report and write to the Straits Times.
Such employers must be taken to task.
Can I suggest the fact the company might require Chinese-speaking staffs to communicate with Inventory (Warehouse) staff who cannot communicate other than in Chinese dialects?
Then should the company fire those who speak only Chinese so that they can accomodate other races?
Or are you paying for the company to hire a translator to translate for them?
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Let me re-emphasize my points.
The world is not fair. We have a collective number of Chinese, Malay and Indians who can only speak in one language and that these people are put out of jobs because of...
English-speaking environment only.
Let us embrace the fact that if we're supposed to open all positions to all who can qualify, there will be a large proportion of the nation who will be put out of job because of their inability to converse in more than one language.
Reason being:
A) In order for a company to work efficiently, communication is an important factor.
B) In order for a company to foster a good environment, the workers must not feel 'unwelcomed' when the others are communicating.
These people who can only converse in one language are already having difficulties to even find job opportunities opened to them.
You want fairness to all races, we'll be putting these uneducated people out of jobs. The job opportunities is already limited, and by subjecting them to further discrimination due to their inabilities, you're going to make life more difficult for them.
Blowing this 'Chinese-only' issue out-of-proportions is not a very wise decision.
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Originally posted by Gun:This is exactly what an Indonesian Chinese had shared with me about their experience in yesteryear and today's Indonesia. They learn Bahasa Indonesia, many instinctively keep low profiles even in today's more tolerant environment, fully aware of their situation. So what did they do ? Did they go around demanding the entire Indonesian society to adapt to their way ?
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the OFFICIAL language of Indonesia, BAHASA INDONESIA? Are you saying that the official language here is Mandarin? Am I demanding YOU to adapt to MY way? Did I not mention WE tried to adapt to YOUR way and proved fruitless?
Did they whine and expect kindness in return hving to adapt to a different culture ?
so... erm... if you don't call what your indonesian chinese friend shared with you "whining", what do you call it then? "complaining"? oh right, "sharing"... only when it comes to us, you call it "whining" huh? And nooo... of course not... They did not whine and expect kindness... They just ran away to where the situation is in their favor. Singapore. You're missing the whole point. We're not expecting kindness or sympathy. Just fairness and equality.
So what makes minority Indonesian Chinese (or for that matter ANY ethnic minority) any MORE different than your case ?
Never did i mention our situation is any bit different from other discriminatory cases throughout the world. There were worst cases during the apartheid in South Africa. Heck, I will also accept the fact that it IS much worse in Indonesia towards the Indonesian Chinese. At the same time, just because there are worse scenarios, it doesn't mean it can be accepted.
Barriers will always be there and prejudiece exists. The key difference here is how u learn to handle it and persevere. Rome was not built in a day and certainly not by whiners.
With all that, I conclude that there is no point arguing with a racist. You obviously do not understand how it feels to be racially judged and prejudiced. I do not condone all those situations happening in Indonesia or even Malaysia towards the Chinese. Everyone should be given an equal chance. But what happens there, is up to the people there. What happens HERE is definitely up to the people HERE. Hence, the need to voice out our plight.
Bottomline, as the saying goes, "Discrimination does not exist when you're not the one being discriminated". Period.
Btw, don't try to look smart by using irrelevant proverbs. -
Perhaps we should see what the core competence of the company is before commenting?
Companies hire staff with the relevant skills and personality needed for the tasks at hand, not for fun.
Perhaps they were catering to chinese clients and thus needed to reach out to their clients by hiring someone who has intimate knowledge of chinese culture, can communicate in madarin, cantonese and even hokkien, also share the occassional chinese jokes?
If the employer is really discriminating against other races, minority or not, caucasian or indian, that employer really has to be dealt with seriously.
There are many offices in sg where everyone speaks mandarin. Granted the documentation is in english, but they converse in mandarin, they joke in mandarin, they gossip in madarin-hokkien hybrid, sometimes even their work is delegated in mandarin. If you are an indian with rudimentary understanding of mandarin, you'd feel miserable and out of place in such an environment. Sure your english is better than theirs, your documentation is excellent, your job efficiency is tremendous, but you'd feel out of place even if everyone went out of their way to please you. Is that what you want?
Now imagine the same work environment, and there is a big idol of the God of Fortune at the door. The sole proprietor worships that idol but he does NOT force anyone else to do so nor does he impose it on anyone else. If you were a staunch Muslim, would you feel comfortable staring at that idol everyday?
(you boss did NOT ask you to worship, your boss did NOT discriminate against you for not worshiping it. Its just an alter there)
I applied for a few jobs and they told me outright that theirs was a "female work environment only", can I sue them for sexisism? Imagine if a woman was denied a job because she is female, she can sue the employer. I was denied a job because I'm male, can I sue? Or will the females tell me to wear a skirt or be a man? -
Originally posted by mett:
Btw, don't try to look smart by using irrelevant proverbs.
okay.
Let's assumed, based on your observation, that I am a "racist" & trying to "look smart", why not start with sharing your own experiences instead on going down this slippery slope of instant-accusations ?
I am listening. -
Originally posted by Nelstar:
Your idea does remind me of the ever-increasing problem in many societies regardless of race: The class or income divide.
Blowing this 'Chinese-only' issue out-of-proportions is not a very wise decision.
IMO, this may hv more concern than just simply racial or language issues.
Just look at the aftermath of Katrina in New Orlean. Majority Americans may share similar religion & language backgnd, but it is the income gap that exposes the fissue. -
There are valid reasons for companies to hire only ethnic Chinese workers.
1. Company culture
The company is probably a Chinese family-owned business where the boss is more comfortable speaking Mandarin and dialect. He would want to be able to communicate effectively with his staff without the aid of a translator.
2. Dealings with China, HK and Taiwan
The rise of the Chinese market is inevitable. In order to make business deals with the China market, it is not only a necessity to know the Chinese language, but also to understand their culture. A non-Chinese may be able to learn Mandarin but he will not be able to appreciate the cultural nuances of Chinese business dealings.
3. Intrinsic characteristics of Chinese
The Chinese are known to be hardworking, resourceful and resilient people. The Hong Kongers are an excellent example. They are highly productive, fast paced and take work very seriously. -
Certain issues cannot be tackled immediately..Originally posted by Gun:Your idea does remind me of the ever-increasing problem in many societies regardless of race: The class or income divide.
IMO, this may hv more concern than just simply racial or language issues.
Just look at the aftermath of Katrina in New Orlean. Majority Americans may share similar religion & language backgnd, but it is the income gap that exposes the fissue.
That's why enforcing education for all Singaporean is important.
Nor can you wish for a universal change just because the Government had intervened. If the Government intervenes with every aspect of life then self-govern for private sectors will disappear. And more freedom is taken away. -
You know what? I realised that I might have blown this issue way out of proportions. I had begun attacking you personally therefore I apologise for that.Originally posted by Gun:
okay.
Let's assumed, based on your observation, that I am a "racist" & trying to "look smart", why not start with sharing your own experiences instead on going down this slippery slope of instant-accusations ?
I am listening.
As for experiences, I have not had any PERSONAL ones yet for I am still a student. Unless you can count part-time jobs as part of this. However I have had close relatives and friends encounter numerous such situations before. And a few of them ARE conversant in mandarin. Which makes it more annoying. For example, a friend, who is conversant in mandarin, applied for a mechanical technician job with his friend, a chinese guy. They both just graduated from the mechatronics course in TP and my friend even had the better grades. However, the Chinese friend was the one who got the job while my friend had to wait another 6 months before getting a job.
As for me, I just bought a "learn mandarin" book but its not sufficient as i need to know the proper pronounciations. I will definitely have to enrol in a mandarin classs soon. My degree will never be enough in this country. Bottomline, it is not fair to say that we NEVER try and ALWAYS whine. Do try to put yourselves in our shoes before making such remarks. As I have mentioned, it would be the same for you if you were in say Indonesia or Australia or wherever else in the world where the Chinese are the minority. Yes, it's happening everywhere but it does not mean it can be condoned. -
better grade so wat ? maybe you fren's fren did better in the interview or have other qualities that employer want ? dun start making racist accusations.Originally posted by mett:As for experiences, I have not had any PERSONAL ones yet for I am still a student. Unless you can count part-time jobs as part of this. However I have had close relatives and friends encounter numerous such situations before. And a few of them ARE conversant in mandarin. Which makes it more annoying. For example, a friend, who is conversant in mandarin, applied for a mechanical technician job with his friend, a chinese guy. They both just graduated from the mechatronics course in TP and my friend even had the better grades. However, the Chinese friend was the one who got the job while my friend had to wait another 6 months before getting a job. -
Originally posted by Mozart:
'Discrimination does not exist when you're not the one being discriminated'
There are valid reasons for companies to hire only ethnic Chinese workers.
1. Company culture
The company is probably a Chinese family-owned business where the boss is more comfortable speaking Mandarin and dialect. He would want to be able to communicate effectively with his staff without the aid of a translator.
That is why, as mentioned, most of the minorities LEARN mandarin. To counter such measures. That is why we still complain, because it makes no difference if you can speak mandarin fluently because they simply want their own race in that company.
2. Dealings with China, HK and Taiwan
The rise of the Chinese market is inevitable. In order to make business deals with the China market, it is not only a necessity to know the Chinese language, but also to understand their culture. A non-Chinese may be able to learn Mandarin but he will not be able to appreciate the cultural nuances of Chinese business dealings.
Is Singapore the only country trading or dealing with businesses in China? What about other countries such as the USA? Or to a lesser extent, say, the Phillipines? Do they not trade with China? Do they seek Chinese people who understands Chinese culture to deal with China just so they could "appreciate" the "cultural nuances" of Chinese business dealings? Anyway, many Chinese Singaporeans these days have been accused of "forgetting their roots". Some even blatantly distance themselves from being associated with mainland Chinese. So do all Chinese Singaporeans "appreciate" the "cultural nuances" of mainland Chinese? Yes I agree that you might have a slight upperhand if you had that but does it necessarily mean you CAN'T deal at all if you had none?
3. Intrinsic characteristics of Chinese
The Chinese are known to be hardworking, resourceful and resilient people. The Hong Kongers are an excellent example. They are highly productive, fast paced and take work very seriously.
So are you saying other races are not "hardworking, resourceful and resilient people"? The Americans are not hardworking? The Europeans are not resourceful? Heck, the Indians are not resilient?? Or do you have something specific to say but you're afraid of being the 4th person to get caught under the Sedition Act? -
Sorry, there is no law on this. So far MOM only issue guidelines. But from what i know, when MOM receive such complaints, they will usually advise the coy. Most of the time it works, because i dont think any company will want any trouble with the ministry.Originally posted by jeg:Understanding ? Then whats the law for ?
If all else fail, there is this administrative measures....
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True, i can agree to that. But maybe not when the Chinese friend called back the next day to ask if he got the job as well, and when he said no, he said that maybe it's because there are no malays working there when he was given a brief tour of the workplace.Originally posted by crazy monkey:better grade so wat ? maybe you fren's fren did better in the interview or have other qualities that employer want ? dun start making racist accusations. -
Is Singapore the only country trading or dealing with businesses in China? What about other countries such as the USA? Or to a lesser extent, say, the Phillipines? Do they not trade with China? Do they seek Chinese people who understands Chinese culture to deal with China just so they could "appreciate" the "cultural nuances" of Chinese business dealings? Anyway, many Chinese Singaporeans these days have been accused of "forgetting their roots". Some even blatantly distance themselves from being associated with mainland Chinese. So do all Chinese Singaporeans "appreciate" the "cultural nuances" of mainland Chinese? Yes I agree that you might have a slight upperhand if you had that but does it necessarily mean you CAN'T deal at all if you had none?
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You are right in saying that other races are also hardworking and that, with enough practise and dedication, caucasians and Afro-americans can gain a good understanding of chinese culture and nuances.
But it comes down to the presence of supply. If there is an overwhelming supply of chinese that fit the job description in USA, then most of the companies will include chinese when dealing with china and taiwan.
Of course, being an american country, the employee must also handle americans without being the target of racism. A caucasian would do the job better than a chinese.
As we know, USA is a predominantly caucasian and the supply of chinese employees is very much less than caucasian employees, thus the choice for caucasians to deal with china and taiwan.
In singapore, we have such an abundant supply of chinese looking for jobs here, there is no need to hire an indian or malay to deal with china or taiwan. Even "eat potato" chinese are more populous than malays and indians who have an intimate knowledge of chinese culture and these "eat potatoes" will fare better than malays and indians as their families will retain a measure of chinese culture, no matter how little.
I am a "eat potato" chinese, sadly. I barely practise my chinese culture and speak mainly english. Yet I managed to introduce and explain many chinese culture practises to my Indon friends. I also played host to some taiwanese friends and they were impressed by my mandarin (I struggled very very hard) and ability to use their slang (i watch a lot of taiwanese and hong kong shows). -
they use the "chinese speaking" requirement to go around the Labor law of anti - racial hiring.
IF i were an employer, and i don't want to hire other race even though the govt may come down on me, I would certainly resort to this "chinese speaking" requirement.
no point having hundreds of malays or indians sending in resumes or coming down for interview when there isn't any intention of hiring them at all in the first place.
its wasting everybodies' time.
the "chinese speaking" requirement helps to filter out other races down to chinese only, which is a racist and unfair criteria.
you want the govt to prohibit these companies from putting out "chinese speaking" requirement in their job ads? fine. but don't get too frustrated when you send in countless resumes and go for countless interviews and still fail to land a job.
ultimately, its the company that decides who they want to hire, not the govt.
you can report this unfortunate encounter of yours to the govt and bring the guilty company out into the open.
then what's next?
Fine, the govt forced this guilty company to hire you. but now there's already bad blood between you and this company even before your first day. think you can work for long in there? -
Hence, as mentioned before, it's blatant racism. The only other way to go around this would be to make the companies more transparent. However, that will add up advertising costs and I'm sure nobody will back that. So, with that, it seems we minorities are destined to be trapped in the cycle of poverty with the unlikely chance of breaking out of it. Why? Because it is widely accepted and tolerated. In other words, nobody gives a fuck
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I totally agree with you.This is discrimination.Originally posted by ShutterBug:I wouldn't know what Penalty shall be imposed, or if there are any at present. But if I were the authorities, I'd bluddy revoke their Business License/s.
We are a multi-racial nation and society, why must these advertisers put up such criterions? Do they have a POINT to prove?? That Mandarin speaking people are better at work? That they are of higher intellect?? Come on out of it, those people!
Put a Collective Complain up to MOM. See what they can do, legislatively.
I can't stand those "high and mithier than thou" attitude of those speak Mandarin only people. Sickens me! -
Malaysia practices blatant racism on a naional level, yet non of the "princes of the land" complained.
Free education, mandatory minimum number of "princes" working in companies and preferencial treatment to "princes".
Singapore practices meritocracy. If you can impress your interviewer, you've got the job. If you've failed to impress your interviewer, can you claim your interviewer was bias or a racist?
Women around the world are facing discrimination too, do they sit around and complain about it or do they go out there and make things better for themselves and other women?