Send Ram Tiwary back to Singapore to hang
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runningismylife,
i expected more fire in your argument? justification supported by "he forgot it in the heat of anger"! LOL
you misunderstand my argument. It was purely about animals, not man. Ram Tiwary may not have forsaken his cognitive ability; he merely forgot about it in the heat of his anger.
the pikamaster
my last post in response to this thread. good day mate. -
Pikamaster,Originally posted by pikamaster:Moderators,
what the hell is wrong with the layout methods the site is using now. Suddenly, every page is shifted doen by half a page and the reply box has shrunk to 1/4 of a page, with the textbox that I typed this post in shrinking to less than 5% the total screen space. Has your CSS gone out of sync, or is this some mysterious bug with Firefox?
the irate pikamaster
Sgdiehard,
(it is very hard to type in a micro-sized textbox so bear with me if I make some typos or mis-quotations)
1) Mr McCrea might be happy for his extradition to Australia, but that doesn't mean he doesn't feel remorse for what he's done. He just don't show it on camera, tt's all.
2) Ya, I agree with you on your point. I think you misunderstood me.
3) I am? Oh, I did not intend to, sorry to any ITE grads out there.
However, it is true that the education system does not give ITE grads much chance to acquire academic knowledge - even under the recent reforms - so I'm merely speaking an objective truth. As far as I know, ITE is technical education.
No, I don't kill people, but I still dislike the Death Penalty because our practice of it hurts our public morality, something which is supposed to be part of our international image.
the (still abolitionist) pikamaster
1. I certainly hope that McCrea, and all who have done wrong, feel remorse and repent, and then live a new life, after they served their sentence. What we should really be pushing are effective corrective education in prisons, and assistance for ex-inmates, so that the society can be convinced that jail terms alone can ensure that 100% of those released from prison will not commit the same crime again.
2. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
3. I think our education provide academic and technical education only for making a living, and what is really lacking is moral education. Money is still the prime and only code of conduct. ppl peddle drug to make money with no consideration for the addicts, companies retrench to maintain profitability with no consideration for the families of those retrenched, government believe our citizens should be happy if they have a roof over they heads, plus 3 meals a day, human rights, freedom of speech....such moral issues are secondary. sigh....
Singapore's authoritative govenment style is what the west are critical about but US, UK and Australia are our closest allies. Their reports disclose our lack of human rights but american schools, australian schools, and sizes of american, brits and auzis expats are getting bigger and bigger here. How our international image is judged and how we are treated appear to be quite different.
To me death penalty is not the absolute deterance to serious crimes, but unless a better alternative is found, it should stay as it is. In the meantime, continuous improvements are made on the judicial system, process and procedure, to ensure that nobody is wrongly accused and convicted.
and we need to ensure that our system applies to all regardless of race, religion and nationality. why should a suspect be treated differently because he ran to UK and then hide in australia? if a hao were to hide in australia, would the victorian be fighting for his extradiction, the same way they fought for McCrea??? A hao killed one person, McCrea killed two! but a ahao is a chinese malaysian, McCrea is a white british! and of course ahao got only money to run to malaysia, but McCrea got money to fly to Uk then to australia!
In the era of globalization, human rights, equality...all these moral issues are apparently still handled according to your skin color.
the (colorless) sgdiehard -
sgdiehard,Originally posted by sgdiehard:Pikamaster,
1. I certainly hope that McCrea, and all who have done wrong, feel remorse and repent, and then live a new life, after they served their sentence. What we should really be pushing are effective corrective education in prisons, and assistance for ex-inmates, so that the society can be convinced that jail terms alone can ensure that 100% of those released from prison will not commit the same crime again.
2. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
3. I think our education provide academic and technical education only for making a living, and what is really lacking is moral education. Money is still the prime and only code of conduct. ppl peddle drug to make money with no consideration for the addicts, companies retrench to maintain profitability with no consideration for the families of those retrenched, government believe our citizens should be happy if they have a roof over they heads, plus 3 meals a day, human rights, freedom of speech....such moral issues are secondary. sigh....
Singapore's authoritative govenment style is what the west are critical about but US, UK and Australia are our closest allies. Their reports disclose our lack of human rights but american schools, australian schools, and sizes of american, brits and auzis expats are getting bigger and bigger here. How our international image is judged and how we are treated appear to be quite different.
To me death penalty is not the absolute deterance to serious crimes, but unless a better alternative is found, it should stay as it is. In the meantime, continuous improvements are made on the judicial system, process and procedure, to ensure that nobody is wrongly accused and convicted.
and we need to ensure that our system applies to all regardless of race, religion and nationality. why should a suspect be treated differently because he ran to UK and then hide in australia? if a hao were to hide in australia, would the victorian be fighting for his extradiction, the same way they fought for McCrea??? A hao killed one person, McCrea killed two! but a ahao is a chinese malaysian, McCrea is a white british! and of course ahao got only money to run to malaysia, but McCrea got money to fly to Uk then to australia!
In the era of globalization, human rights, equality...all these moral issues are apparently still handled according to your skin color.
the (colorless) sgdiehard
in what way are you colorless?
1) Convicting (and executing) one innocent man is so much more severe than letting many guilty men go free. For many, I believe, the knowledge that you have killed a single person can be very damaging to your psyche. Ophrah Winfrey interviewed prisoners on the Death Row in Florida. All these men had "forgotten" their heinous crimes and the statements they made at court subscribing to their guilt, even claiming to have no knowledge of such events. And some of them had only been incarcerated 2 years ago!
2) you're forgiven.
3) I agree, but that's not the fault of any criminal, unless of course you want to consider the govt a crime syndicate.
Sometimes I wonder if the govt has a purpose in ensuring that Singapore remains with a 3rd-world income distribution structure...
4) We need to distinguish here: the West has a different social structure from ours. Remember, theirs is a bottom-up structure; the bottom is very strong. Govts, esp. flood relief and security agencies, would obviously envy us and strive to be like us, after all all govts crave control. However, the activist groups and the civilians may have much different opinions. You need to be celar of the definition of "the West" before you make sweeping statements like what you did.
5) Heard of the backward-bending supply curve of labour?
6) Ya, the Victorians probably would, I think. After all, that's their national/regional/local mindset. For them, the Death Penalty is wrong regardless of nationality of the mruderer and number of victims.
Your last statement makes an incorrect conclusion. We must remember that M'sia retains the Death Penalty as well, and the M'sian govt usually colludes with our S'porean govt. C'mon, look at it this way, bith countries are founding members of ASEAN! Australia, on the other hand, is not a member of ASEAN, although it is a member of the "Aisa-Pacific Region". As such, AU don't necessarily share Asian sentiments, even though Asia is right next-door to them.
Just to prove the point, Australia pleaded for the extradition of Shamungam as well. In fact, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer wrote a personal letter to MHA. SHamungam, FYI, is an Indian and NOT an Australian (I believe). So you can't put in Racism into that case.
Cheers,
the pikamaster -
Shamugam? Who's that? Any background on his case?Originally posted by pikamaster:Just to prove the point, Australia pleaded for the extradition of Shamungam as well. In fact, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer wrote a personal letter to MHA. SHamungam, FYI, is an Indian and NOT an Australian (I believe). So you can't put in Racism into that case.
Cheers,
the pikamaster -
HmmÂ…only after 2 years and these men forgot about their heinous crimes? Psyche damaged? tell this to the families of the victims. Enough said.Originally posted by pikamaster:1) Convicting (and executing) one innocent man is so much more severe than letting many guilty men go free. For many, I believe, the knowledge that you have killed a single person can be very damaging to your psyche. Ophrah Winfrey interviewed prisoners on the Death Row in Florida. All these men had "forgotten" their heinous crimes and the statements they made at court subscribing to their guilt, even claiming to have no knowledge of such events. And some of them had only been incarcerated 2 years ago!
Convicting an innocent man is wrong, whether you execute him or put him in jail for the rest of his life. But letting guilty men go free is as severe as committing the crime itself, especially if the guilty men kill again!!
No chicken sellers will stop chopping chicken just because he is afraid to chop his finger accidentally, he just get better everyday in making sure that he is better at this job.
This is responding to your remarks on ITE graduates. DonÂ’t need jump to defend the criminals.Originally posted by pikamaster:3) I agree, but that's not the fault of any criminal, unless of course you want to consider the govt a crime syndicate. Sometimes I wonder if the govt has a purpose in ensuring that Singapore remains with a 3rd-world income distribution structure...
I mentioned US, UK and Australia. So, their govts and their citizens “much different opinions”. Whatever is our image, we know we please one and piss the other, we will not please both, neither will we piss them both. The idea of my para is “WHO CARES”!Originally posted by pikamaster:4) We need to distinguish here: the West has a different social structure from ours. Remember, theirs is a bottom-up structure; the bottom is very strong. Govts, esp. flood relief and security agencies, would obviously envy us and strive to be like us, after all all govts crave control. However, the activist groups and the civilians may have much different opinions. You need to be celar of the definition of "the West" before you make sweeping statements like what you did.
They are free to do what they want. Killers take note, makes sure you secure a way to Australia before you act.Originally posted by pikamaster:6) Ya, the Victorians probably would, I think. After all, that's their national/regional/local mindset. For them, the Death Penalty is wrong regardless of nationality of the mruderer and number of victims.
. The police cooperations between M’sia and S’pore are “colluding”?? I guess no ASEAN members, govt or citizens will share such AU sentiments. They are not part of ASEAN anyway, not part of ASIA. The crime was committed in Singapore and we were just looking for some respect sof our system, to develop mutual respects. I guess the next time killers from ASEAN can run to AU, and bomb terrorists from AU can run to Indonesia, they are right next door.Originally posted by pikamaster:Your last statement makes an incorrect conclusion. We must remember that M'sia retains the Death Penalty as well, and the M'sian govt usually colludes with our S'porean govt. C'mon, look at it this way, bith countries are founding members of ASEAN! Australia, on the other hand, is not a member of ASEAN, although it is a member of the "Aisa-Pacific Region". As such, AU don't necessarily share Asian sentiments, even though Asia is right next-door to them.
Your focus appears to be on the rights of the criminals. I agree with you that accused have equal rights until they are convicted. Once convicted and sentenced, their rights are the right of criminals, not free men anymore. This is to protect the general public from being harmed, such is the public moral. -
pikamaster,Originally posted by pikamaster:zheshi,
I gave you ur answer.... I gave you the opinions of murder victims in that post which you "did not bother to read". The victims themselves feel it does not do justice, even if the person executed happened to be a terrorist.
Of course, if you are expecting an affirmation of your stand, then you won't get it.
the pikamaster
For every victim that does not support the death sentence, there are many who do. Ask the billions in China and the families who troop to watch executions in US states. As long as the majority of the population supports it, it stays. -
How big is the majority you are talking about? It could even be 50.1 vs 49.9. The way you put it, it seems to be 99 vs 1.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:pikamaster,
For every victim that does not support the death sentence, there are many who do. Ask the billions in China and the families who troop to watch executions in US states. As long as the majority of the population supports it, it stays. -
You can read into what I wrote anyway you like..The way llibertarians write, you might have thought most Singaporeans are aginst the death penalty.Originally posted by iveco:How big is the majority you are talking about? It could even be 50.1 vs 49.9. The way you put it, it seems to be 99 vs 1.
I am confident the majority of Singaporeans support the death penalty, especially after the Huang Na case. As long as most Singaporeans are for it, the government will not act against the desire of its population.
Having been the victim of a previous robbery and a theft, I would not object if we impose amputations for onvicted robbers myself....that, however, I do not think will be supported by the majority of Singaporeans. -
Even so, I have my reservations about the whole affair. We might never know if more than one person might have been involved. The way the main suspect was intorrogated was done behind closed doors. At Scotland Yard, whatever goes on there is watched closely by the tabloids. The climate there is more media-friendly than over in Singapore.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I am confident the majority of Singaporeans support the death penalty, especially after the Huang Na case. As long as most Singaporeans are for it, the government will not act against the desire of its population.
You can rail against civil libertarians and call them whatever names you want, but without them, your chance to vote may disappear altogether. -
oxford mushroom,Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You can read into what I wrote anyway you like..The way llibertarians write, you might have thought most Singaporeans are aginst the death penalty.
I am confident the majority of Singaporeans support the death penalty, especially after the Huang Na case. As long as most Singaporeans are for it, the government will not act against the desire of its population.
Having been the victim of a previous robbery and a theft, I would not object if we impose amputations for onvicted robbers myself....that, however, I do not think will be supported by the majority of Singaporeans.
1) Really? I do recall that libertarians said that most Singaporeans should be educated to know the barbarity of the Death Penalty. Amnesty International, for eg, does not make any presumptions about how many Singaporeans support the Death Penalty in its reports.
2) How are you sure of that? And anyway, our government has acted against the desire of its population on quite a number of occations, including the recent I(C)R issue, not to mention the curtailment of free speech etc. So tt second statement is unjsutified.
3) You had your legs amputated? Sorry to hear that. However, whichever way it goes, two wrongs do not make a right.
the (still abolitionist) pikamaster -
If the government is confident that they will get strong support for any policy, I challanege them to hold a referendum on the issue, Swiss-style.Originally posted by pikamaster:2) How are you sure of that? And anyway, our government has acted against the desire of its population on quite a number of occations, including the recent I(C)R issue, not to mention the curtailment of free speech etc. So tt second statement is unjsutified.
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they dun even bother to hold a president election you think they will hold referendum ?Originally posted by iveco:If the government is confident that they will get strong support for any policy, I challanege them to hold a referendum on the issue, Swiss-style. -
I have always supported a referendum on this and other issues. I think the opinion of victims of crime should have greater weightage as well.Originally posted by iveco:If the government is confident that they will get strong support for any policy, I challanege them to hold a referendum on the issue, Swiss-style.
However, I do have a question for pikamaster and other abolitionists. Honestly, should the referendum results in support for the death penalty, will you accept the decision of the majority?
I would have no problem if Singaporeans vote to abolish the death penalty in a referendum. I will push for life imprisonment and make such criminals work for their own upkeep in prison. -
1. Sure. We will always disagree on this issue. It is part of the democratic process to accommodate differing opinions. You have a right to convince Singaporeans that the death penalty is barbaric as I do to argue that it is just.Originally posted by pikamaster:oxford mushroom,
1) Really? I do recall that libertarians said that most Singaporeans should be educated to know the barbarity of the Death Penalty. Amnesty International, for eg, does not make any presumptions about how many Singaporeans support the Death Penalty in its reports.
2) How are you sure of that? And anyway, our government has acted against the desire of its population on quite a number of occations, including the recent I(C)R issue, not to mention the curtailment of free speech etc. So tt second statement is unjsutified.
3) You had your legs amputated? Sorry to hear that. However, whichever way it goes, two wrongs do not make a right.
the (still abolitionist) pikamaster
2. Without a referendum, we will never know. That is why such an argument is fruitless. You can never provide proof that the majority of Singaporeans are against the death penalty, whilst I will continue to point to the multitude baying for blood each time a heinous crime has been committed, such as the Huang Na case. Remember that even in staunchly catholic Philippines, they have re-instituted the death penalty for heinous crimes. By and large, I belive that Asian societies support it and I welcome a referendum to prove my point.
3. That's your view. In the balance between rights of the victim and rights of criminals, I am clearly in favour of the former. Amputating the limbs of a robber will certainly make it far more difficult for him to re-offend. The death penalty will certainly take the murderer out of circulation. And despite the arguments about the deterrent effect of the death penalty, what is clear is that imprisonment does not deter many criminals. The murder rate and other violent crimes are increasing by the day in liberal, western nations like the UK. I certainly do not want that. -
I have reservations about the legal process and I have said that before. I think we should have greater transparency both during the investigation and trial of criminals, especially with regard to capital punishment cases.Originally posted by iveco:Even so, I have my reservations about the whole affair. We might never know if more than one person might have been involved. The way the main suspect was intorrogated was done behind closed doors. At Scotland Yard, whatever goes on there is watched closely by the tabloids. The climate there is more media-friendly than over in Singapore.
You can rail against civil libertarians and call them whatever names you want, but without them, your chance to vote may disappear altogether.
By the way, the woman who leaked information to the press about the shootingof thye innocent Brazilian man has been charged.
Finally, I would rather live in a sanitized, authoritarian society and be free of the fear of crime than in a liberal society and be a victim of crime. Of course, I would much prefer to have my cake and eat it as well, but that is often not possible. We need to seek a compromise in between two ideals, and it is the population who decides where and how to strike that balance. -
At least our Government tried to hold an election even though I doubt there were 'real' contestants.Originally posted by crazy monkey:they dun even bother to hold a president election you think they will hold referendum ? -
I have to agree with you on this.For every person that votes in this world, he must understand that the right to stand in a booth and cast a free vote was bought by the sweat, blood and tears of fighters past.Originally posted by iveco:Even so, I have my reservations about the whole affair. We might never know if more than one person might have been involved. The way the main suspect was intorrogated was done behind closed doors. At Scotland Yard, whatever goes on there is watched closely by the tabloids. The climate there is more media-friendly than over in Singapore.
You can rail against civil libertarians and call them whatever names you want, but without them, your chance to vote may disappear altogether.
This is not really taught in Singapore schools.The pain and sacrifice of people ho have fought to keep state tyranny out of the personal sphere and to be beholden to the people, the press and the judiciary. -
Today's realism and pragmatic social politics are no excuse to say that control is one legitimate alternative to liberalism.To me, to give up more and more of your freedom in the name of security is a slap in the face of those who have died to give it to you.If a nation cannot secure itself and maintain her stance, what else can stop it from sliding down the slippery slope to a dictatorship?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I have reservations about the legal process and I have said that before. I think we should have greater transparency both during the investigation and trial of criminals, especially with regard to capital punishment cases.
By the way, the woman who leaked information to the press about the shootingof thye innocent Brazilian man has been charged.
Finally, I would rather live in a sanitized, authoritarian society and be free of the fear of crime than in a liberal society and be a victim of crime. Of course, I would much prefer to have my cake and eat it as well, but that is often not possible. We need to seek a compromise in between two ideals, and it is the population who decides where and how to strike that balance.
Security must never become the main aspect of societal governance, because look at it this way, a jail is pretty secure against much of anything that goes on out there.The minute we give up the ability to think for ourselves and let a larger power do ALL of the thinking, then our lives have become under too much of their jurisdiction, and it's such a wonder that so many people still do not realise what they have done or have not done, that has led to us being in this state of paralysis and ineffectual in terms of the impact of public opinion on matters of state or criminal policy. -
I wish to point out that the presence of capital punishment in Indonesia has not deterred any more suicide bombings following the October 12, 2002 attack in Bali. Since then Jakarta had been hit by at least 2 more blasts and just 2 days ago, the very same people returned to Bali to cause more harm.
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no its does not deter them. but at least those who are caught get the punishment they deserve.Originally posted by iveco:I wish to point out that the presence of capital punishment in Indonesia has not deterred any more suicide bombings following the October 12, 2002 attack in Bali. Since then Jakarta had been hit by at least 2 more blasts and just 2 days ago, the very same people returned to Bali to cause more harm. -
you just shot yourself twice in the foot, brother.Originally posted by crazy monkey:no its does not deter them. but at least those who are caught get the punishment they deserve.:-
1) u ppl hv been arguing for the deterrent effect of the Penalty, and now u've just said that the deterrent effect is non-existent.
2) the punitive phrase "get the punishemnt they deserve" displays the idea of vengeance.
the (victorious?) pikamaster -
its does not deter suicide bombers but will deter kidnappers and murderers.Originally posted by pikamaster:you just shot yourself twice in the foot, brother.:-
1) u ppl hv been arguing for the deterrent effect of the Penalty, and now u've just said that the deterrent effect is non-existent.
2) the punitive phrase "get the punishemnt they deserve" displays the idea of vengeance.
the (victorious?) pikamaster
if a fine does not deter some ppl from speeding, does it mean the fine is useless ? -
Using capital punishment as a deterrent against suicide bomber is suicidal. What is the objective of sucide bomber in the first place.
Lets just stick to murderer as argued in the first place. Please carry on... -
The issue in Indonesia is not about capital punishment. the whole legal process is in doubt when placed in front of the religion. JI, dispite being found responsible for several bombings, is not illegal because it refers to the muslim community. When the bomb suspects and the mastermind were tried in court, his supporters can gather outside giving support. The judges or the jury must be fearing for their life for doing the right thing.Originally posted by iveco:I wish to point out that the presence of capital punishment in Indonesia has not deterred any more suicide bombings following the October 12, 2002 attack in Bali. Since then Jakarta had been hit by at least 2 more blasts and just 2 days ago, the very same people returned to Bali to cause more harm.
Capital punishment is just part of the whole legal process and should not be viewed in isolation.
Capital punishment will have little impact on terrorists because they believe that they become martyr if they die for their religion. Terrorists who are convicted of murder and sentenced to death WILL NOT run to australia and fight against extradiction.
If they do, do you think the victorians would use their tax money to protect a bomb terrorist from extradiction to be hanged?? -
1) Death penalty is not the absolute and all effective deterrence. The court trial and judges or jury decision determine if the accused is guilty and what punishment is necessary. If the religious court in Indonesia can declared a convicted terrorist "infidel" or whatever terms that make him a religious outcast, for killing innocent ppl, including those of the same religion, I am sure this will be much more effective than death penalty. But, the process of trials and judging must be effective, before the sentence is given.Originally posted by pikamaster:you just shot yourself twice in the foot, brother.:-
1) u ppl hv been arguing for the deterrent effect of the Penalty, and now u've just said that the deterrent effect is non-existent.
2) the punitive phrase "get the punishemnt they deserve" displays the idea of vengeance.
the (victorious?) pikamaster
To these terrorists, their motive is religious and their religious status is more important than their life. But then, will you fight for their religious rights??
2)"vengeance" is when victims or their relatives take the law in their own hand. "punishment they deserve" include life imprisonment, does it displace the idea of vengeance??
Argue for the sake of argument may bring victory but will it bring better life to the people, or just the criminals?