Singapore says no to liberal democracy for next 20 years
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Sad! We will continue to be under one-party-rule for many years to come:
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051006/3/3vgt6.html
Singapore says no to liberal democracy for next 20 years
SINGAPORE, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Singapore will not adopt a Western liberal democracy with a multi-party system during the next 20 years, its prime minister said on Thursday.
The wealthy island at the southern tip of the Malaysian peninsula has been dominated by the People's Action Party of Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong -- the son of founding father Lee Kuan Yew -- since independence in 1965. Only two of the 84 elected politicians in parliament are from the opposition.
When asked at a Foreign Correspondents Association lunch whether he expected Singapore to turn into a democracy in 20 years where parties compete for votes, Lee said: "I don't think that's likely to happen."
"I think in 20 years our society will change. I think the politics of it will change. But I do not see a Western model...as the target we want to aim for."
"We do not see (a Western democracy) as a model which would work well in Singapore. We have worked a system where there is parliamentary democracy, there are free elections and the electorate has given their confidence overwhelmingly to one party."
Singapore is a parliamentary republic and elections are held at regular, constitutionally mandated intervals, and some expect one in 2005 although it is not due until 2007. In the 2001 poll, Lee's predecessor Goh Chok Tong won 75 percent of the vote.
Opposition politicians have long complained the system is stacked against them and that frequent defamation suits by PAP officials stifles dissent. Opposition politician Joshua Jeyaretnam was bankrupted by libel suits brought by PAP leaders.
Lee, 53, took over from Goh last year after 14 years in office. Goh had taken over from Lee Kuan Yew, who founded the PAP and led Singapore as prime minister for 31 years. -
i have a question tho'
i see people rant and rage about multiparty systems, two-party systems, whatever...
our country's politics is what we make of it..
if the opposition's views about having multiparty systems is soundly voted out (even if it was bloody gerrymandered to heck) all the time, it does say something..
and.. if the opposition cannot handle the people voting against them and keep ranting about "oppression", consider this: where on God's earth has the ruling party given away power to the opposition?
if there isn't one, why should the opposition parties och and moan about it?
we all know the ruling party isn't all nice and stuff.. however, the consistent defeats of the majority of the opposition party tells a lot.. and we know that the ruling party is not invincible (look, there are opposition MPs in there) so, here's something i've always believed in:
if you find yourself not as good or able as the other person, you do not insist the person dumb down for you.. you go out and better yourself so that you are able to compete with that person...
the same goes for the opposition...
don't insist the gabrament give you things... what the heck are you? you can't help yourself and need the help of the very people you rant against? damn you! if you can't even do something right like that, how do you expect to carry the weight of the responsibility of being an MP for YOUR PEOPLE?
we have seen the "western model" to be totally crap.. it's stinks, it does not even come close to representing the people, and worst of all, the system is controlled by a bunch of money-grabbing lobbyists who have their own corporate interest at heart.. do we want that? because i believe and think that that's a worse system than we have now... -
A decisive government is what we want
Not a N.A.T.O. government
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Oops, what a fiery retort!
When I said one-party-rule I was thinking more of the continuation of the old system. -
Check and balance has worked well in many western countries even as they have to contend with existing problems because the total final outcome are better and more informed decisions.
Great scientific discoveries, Nobel Prize-winning latest advances in human knowledge, technological excellences happen.
In addition, once information are open being subject to scrutiny by peers and independent panels. there will be less abuses, wrong doings, self-approval or rewards or bonues or potential hidden agendas like the GRCs or NKF or negligences and highway collapses without prior proactive action. -
explain Enron and all the other abuses..
i would say that the abuses in the "western" countries are lots easier to get away with.. all they have to do is to subvert the system...
already, it has been done.. in the US, the PBS (which is supposed to be impartial, apolitical and totally independent) has been subverted by the GOP simply by putting a rabid Republican who is not beneath lying to turn Big Bird into someone sprouting Republican BS...
to say that because there are "checks and balances" so things like NKF will not happen, is not just naive, you have to actually put in a lot of effort in order to sew your eyes shut and deafen yourself..
i am not proposing that our gabrament's way is right.. i am proposing that blind apeing of the "western" model is to go 100mph on the road to ruin..
we can find our own way.. if only we start to invest all this energy into finding OUR OWN way instead of condemning everything our gabrament does or promoting everything "liberal" -
Apart from all the holding back and desisting to open up to mass participation and practical process management, what assurances have been given to establish our "way".Originally posted by the Bear:explain Enron and all the other abuses..
i would say that the abuses in the "western" countries are lots easier to get away with.. all they have to do is to subvert the system...
already, it has been done.. in the US, the PBS (which is supposed to be impartial, apolitical and totally independent) has been subverted by the GOP simply by putting a rabid Republican who is not beneath lying to turn Big Bird into someone sprouting Republican BS...
to say that because there are "checks and balances" so things like NKF will not happen, is not just naive, you have to actually put in a lot of effort in order to sew your eyes shut and deafen yourself..
i am not proposing that our gabrament's way is right.. i am proposing that blind apeing of the "western" model is to go 100mph on the road to ruin..
we can find our own way.. if only we start to invest all this energy into finding OUR OWN way instead of condemning everything our gabrament does or promoting everything "liberal"
More and more problems have been created in every sphere of works and services from high costs to dropping property prices and class divisions. The only way when results are not coming would be more gerrymandering against racists in blogs and more controls of dissenting views and opinions. If results are coming, there will be no need to resort to GRC or other gerrymandering controls as people will see the change and support the government.
Today since 1970s, we have not been doing well and our per capita ranking has dropped. The standard of living of the masses is dropping with lowering of wages and increasing of costs.
If we have achieved so much as is made to believe, we would not have so many unemployed and so many factories empty and shops idling without business. People are struggling for a living just to get their three meals. Yet leaders are congratulating themselves for their GDPs and so-called superficial success by adopting denial stance in governming. We have been enduring such denial syndrome all too long and it is time to examine whether our current top-down autoracy can involve the masses in knowledge applications and technological development to go forward.
Without overcoming existing problems created by past major policy errors like over-obssessive anti-welfare and overly zealous meritocracy, and elitism, the prospect of making leaping progress will remain very dim.
Hence it is about time to open up to mass participation in knowledge applications and getting the whole populations to work together not just to congratulate their own perceived success without a clue about the power of people-centred management - check and balance is the way to empower people to do so in practical way. What has failed to show during the last two recessions is proof enough that top-down autocracy is too slow and outdated and will not end as some wise assumption like "finding of our own solutions" as sold to the citizens for the past 20 years now. This kind of assumption that we will find our own solution somewhere will again hold back our progress for another 20 years. Think about it !!! -
so.. what is the plan?
because what we have seen is the taking of the "western" concepts, and injecting a few local concepts in too..
frankly, i would say this: our system is the GOP's wet dream..
think about it.. -
Going by the arguments in this topic, I must say that proportional representation is still the best, since it allows as many parties (and interests) as possible to be represented.
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Oh no! This means that we'll be continue living in the Matrix system, holy faeces!!! Alas, no choice lah, most of the Singaporeans are not ready to be unplugged, and many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. We need more people to take the red pill & challenge the bloody 1-party-rule government.Originally posted by lotus999:Sad! We will continue to be under one-party-rule for many years to come -
I agree with proportional representation as there will be no need to concoct all kinds of justifications like the NMPs or what-have-you. At least there will always be some genuine debates among true politicians and not all the craps from insiders nominated to be NMPs like flower vases. Between First-past-the-post or winners take all system and proportional representation, the latter is clearly more superior as it will serve to counter-balance our asian culture of face. Because of face so many people have to shut up or be sacrificed. Given the balance of representation under PR there is no reason why we cannot eventually produce better quality leadership versus obsessive face-centred domination by one party the root cause of potential frictions and abuses.Originally posted by iveco:Going by the arguments in this topic, I must say that proportional representation is still the best, since it allows as many parties (and interests) as possible to be represented. -
was it a typo "since 1970s"? it should be late 1990s.Originally posted by robertteh:Today since 1970s, we have not been doing well and our per capita ranking has dropped. The standard of living of the masses is dropping with lowering of wages and increasing of costs. -
Hello Pearlie27,Originally posted by pearlie27:was it a typo "since 1970s"? it should be late 1990s.
If you really want to know and are asking questions to clarify your own concern with the direction our government is taking the country, then I would gladly answer your pertinent question.
If you are here as protagonist of government's doings to defend their cause, then it is of no use to answer you as no matter what I say you would still come back with other queries and pretend problems don't exist and not willing to accept objective feedbacks.
Assuming you are asking a pertinent question as a concerned citizen, then I ask you to take a cursory look through of past problems and issues raised by people in various venues. You would then no doubt come across some of the following posted as "20 major past government policy errors" on page 11 of "Definition of True Democracy":-
(1) Bureaucracy in civil service.
(2) High costs of essential government services e.g. medical, utilities, housing, transportation, education, etc, etc
(3) Growth Triangles
(4) Affective divide due to lack of understanding of people's views and aspirations.
(5) Work site safety problems (Hotel New World Collapse's blue paper was not effectively implemented)
(6) Deliver a Swiss standard of living
(7) Asset enhancement scheme fiasco
(8 ) Unit trust investment fiasco
(9) Foreign relation fiascos
(10) Non-formulation of a value-adding investment strategy
(11) Double-charging on lands (paid by taxpayers yet charged back to them at full market prices) and triple charges on vehicles.
(12) Meritocratic education policy that backfired - brain drains of thousands
(13) Mother tongue - CL1 admission fiasco
(14) Reaching World Cup soccer league by 2010 - no sign of getting near.
(15) Investment losses by thousands of citizens from CPF funds.
(16) Spiraling of government ministers' and civil servants' salaries.
(17) Failure to implement accountability and transparency in respect of investments of citizens' monies in overseas investments.
(18 ) Loss of economic competitiveness due to high costs.
(19) Neglect in promoting entrepreneurship
(20) Neglect in nurturing the domestic sector of economy.
By going through this list objectively, you could easily see that most of the problems were old problems unsolved since the 1970s. So you will see that I have answered your question on date of beginning of Singapore's decline.
The problem of high cost has besetted the whole population since the 1970s when the government began to push up their own wages on the premise that they needed to attract talents or avoid corruptions. Despite the dropping wages, CPF cuts, growth triangle and asset enhancement fiasco and failures of economic restructuring plans from that time, the government ministers and top civil servants continue to pretend that they were governing the country well. Look again at what the ministers were saying to the people on retrenchments during the last two recessions. There were without solutions and helpless putting all the blames on workers themselves for their presumably high wage costs forgetting to mention their own NKF wages.
After my postings to the Feedback Unit etc, about these 20 problems there might have been certain changes to education to vocational and broad-based one but the solutions seem late. Dr. Tony Tan has visited Finland and Denmark in 2005 to study their practical research and broad-based education system.
We are now way way behind other Asian tigers and many of our own talents were forced to migrate because of our economic shambles. But our ministers do not seem to be able to change their own mindset and still try to present themselves as the best even in the face of their persistent failures to upgrade the economy.
The have failed to upgrade the economy to value-adding type or restructuring to advanced technologies as the South Koreans, Taiwanese and Finnish have been doing.
From the 1970s, many economic re-structuing strategies have been announced and failed because of lack of action-type ministers like Dr. Goh Keng Swee.
After Dr. Goh Keng Swee left the scene, none of the other Finance or Indiustry ministers have noticeably created another industrial success like Jurong or succeeded in so-called value-adding industries. It is about time for our first generation leaders to realise their own policy errors and change for the sake of all.
Why, the newer ministers were mostly untested in industrialisation or economic planning. There were mostly academically qualified but lacking in real strategic economic planning or implementation excellence.
The past policy errors were mostly caused by egoistic self-centred beliefs that they were the talents and no one was better. It is time they take a look at what the Switzerland, Finland, Denmark, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan have done during these years since the 1970s. Singapore lost out simply because of arrogance about own ability of our academicians. It is time to try some other solutions and not persist in talking like they are t -
Alamak lah... why even bother talking about this.
Control of Singapore, is in a dead-man's grip. There's no way our good old PAP is ever going to let go in any degree.
They're a PERMANENT fixture. NOT removable, changeable, or otherwise. There're just there.
Period. -
The PAP sure as heck embraced liberal democracy when they were going up against the British. LKY was even quoted stating the importance of democracy. Now that they've become the problem I guess they don't like democracy anymore.
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democracy often doesnt go hand in hand with people in power.
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Well, LKY and the PAP did and still continue to prey on the common people's anti-colonial sentiments. In the past, British colonial rule was seen as oppressive since it did not give us any room for self-determination. These days, liberal democracy has been adopted by many EU member-states (who were once former colonial powers themselves). By adopting their standards, it is as good as losing our identity, if we go by PAP logic.Originally posted by av98m:The PAP sure as heck embraced liberal democracy when they were going up against the British. LKY was even quoted stating the importance of democracy. Now that they've become the problem I guess they don't like democracy anymore. -
i see nothing wrong with the present situation. We have a stable government, a stable economy, and a stable life. Multi-party system is not for singapore, and actually its bullshit for anyone to think that this system represents a democracy.
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Are u sure??Originally posted by the Bear:our country's politics is what we make of it..
more like its what PAP make of it. not us.
Have u not forgotten when they drew those GRC lines for GE???
Have u not forgotten when they set laws and rules to their advantage??
We dun understand advantages of Multiparty system,
simply bcos we DO NOT even have the chance to see it.
No need multiple party, as long as there are more oppositions MPs
elected, there will be more voices.
Else, PAP say one, no one else can say two.
And no one even know for sure if they are doing any nonsense 'backstage'.
Without oppisitions, PAP will think they own the whole of Spore. -
Without alternatives (clowns or proportional representatives oppositions) : Counctry creativity index or grade for knowledge application/mass participation: 1.
(One person making decisions for 4,000,000 people despite that each decision has its pros and cons which were not debated or discussed and so far only for government gain)
With alternative (Political participations by masses): Creative index: 666,000.
Assuming average citizen has less intelligence and ability as leader say at 1/6 of leader, 4,000,000 people will be able to apply knowledge to create jobs and knowledge application competitiveness at: total creativity index: of 666,666.
Surely the country creativity or knowledge application index of active citizens alone will offer better collective decisions and checks and balances to get leaders to do better jobs in governance.
However long long ago many have been brainwashed to believe that multi-party or liberal democracy will send us into chaos. Just like welfarism, they use it to create fear and at the end over-charge on all fees and driving up costs of living. We are now contending with solutions of problems because they were too many unsolvable problems due to lack of alternative views and suggestions.
That is why we are now listening to all the excuses, "Ifs and buts" and gerrymandering of all the look-good policies which did not deliver results for many years and which are very meaningless to citizens in terms of creating jobs or increasing our competitiveness.
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most of the people dun preach wat they say. the matrix don't have to change, u change. the matrix tries to change u but ultimate its u who change urself cos u give in.....
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no ifs and buts..
here's the long and short of it...
people are "brainwashed"... is that just an excuse?
or is it the opposition refuse to do the necessary simply because it is difficult?
if the opposition member builds his base from grassroots level, and is part of the people, making himself known to the people, doing what he can for them, doing good, will the "brainwashed" people support him?
or is the "brainwashing" thing just a cop-out? something to justify their impotence because they do not want to do the difficult things but want everything served to them on a silver platter?
those who have served the people from the grassroots up, made a difference, are sitting there in parliament, and they earned their place... so much for the "brainwashing" excuse..
do the right thing..
don't whine about it..
if you think a multi-party system is good, work towards it and earn the right to change.. if not, whinging about how "the man keeps you down" won't cut it.. -
Who wants to participate in Volunteering for GrassRoots activities at least once a month ??? Later we can find enough people to form a new Party ??Originally posted by the Bear:no ifs and buts..
here's the long and short of it...
people are "brainwashed"... is that just an excuse?
or is it the opposition refuse to do the necessary simply because it is difficult?
if the opposition member builds his base from grassroots level, and is part of the people, making himself known to the people, doing what he can for them, doing good, will the "brainwashed" people support him?
or is the "brainwashing" thing just a cop-out? something to justify their impotence because they do not want to do the difficult things but want everything served to them on a silver platter?
those who have served the people from the grassroots up, made a difference, are sitting there in parliament, and they earned their place... so much for the "brainwashing" excuse..
do the right thing..
don't whine about it..
if you think a multi-party system is good, work towards it and earn the right to change.. if not, whinging about how "the man keeps you down" won't cut it..
Come ?? Lets start organising now and maybe 15 years later we mature with enough resources and backings to Help the Community and serve people's never ending complains?? -
Single-party dominance is the ultimate bull$hit.Originally posted by nanren4ever:i see nothing wrong with the present situation. We have a stable government, a stable economy, and a stable life. Multi-party system is not for singapore, and actually its bullshit for anyone to think that this system represents a democracy. -
When people are overwhelmed by press control, ISD, GRC, defamation suit, because of people of kiasu and kiasee attitude and failure to see larger picture of political rights and freedoms, it is no longer a simple question of walking the talk or standing up as oppositions or alternative any more. If we still have some oppositions left, they are inevitably crushed and reduced to clowns and jokers who will not make much of good opposition or alternative.Originally posted by the Bear:no ifs and buts..
here's the long and short of it...
people are "brainwashed"... is that just an excuse?
or is it the opposition refuse to do the necessary simply because it is difficult?
if the opposition member builds his base from grassroots level, and is part of the people, making himself known to the people, doing what he can for them, doing good, will the "brainwashed" people support him?
or is the "brainwashing" thing just a cop-out? something to justify their impotence because they do not want to do the difficult things but want everything served to them on a silver platter?
those who have served the people from the grassroots up, made a difference, are sitting there in parliament, and they earned their place... so much for the "brainwashing" excuse..
do the right thing..
don't whine about it..
if you think a multi-party system is good, work towards it and earn the right to change.. if not, whinging about how "the man keeps you down" won't cut it..
Singaporeans should not pretend that there is no problem. What they are seeing are look-good presentations and justifications of past policies with no desire or intention to change. Nothing really has changed. The bus fare, utility, medical and HDB prices are going to suck out whatever they earn if they are still employed. Singaporeans should change and not be the kiasu and kiasee who only care about their own immediate interests.
They should understand what is right and wrong and what is objective and wise about political freedom and rights and not be afraid to speak up and cast their votes accordingly. Only in this way can they change and finally regain their rightful place to speak and act freely to decide what they want of their country.
They now have to wise up as they are the only ones solely responsible and cannot blame anyone else.