Death Penalty Appeal
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I have no question about enforcement, but God alone knows if interrogation was accompanied by torture. Also, there appears to be too much power in hte hands of the prosecutors to some extent.Originally posted by sgdiehard:My interest is whether our law is transparent and if law enforcement is just and fair, I have no time to fight for the rights of criminals. Once convicted, a criminal loses his basic human right, his freedom.
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I think perhaps you should be excused on account of your age, but some things aren't even funny eh, ....Originally posted by ceecookie:if Lee Hsein Loong or the president dun listen and continue wif the excution then the australian govt should sent agents to assasinate the president or LHL...
a certain responsibility comes along with the freedom to speak freely ...
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Whatever the case, I still think John Howard beats Lee Hsien Loong hands down, no matter what Kim Beazley and other opposition heavyweights say about his leadership.Originally posted by Fatum:I think perhaps you should be excused on account of your age, but some things aren't even funny eh, ....
a certain responsibility comes along with the freedom to speak freely ... -
im not saying they must...im just a bit angry....Originally posted by Fatum:I think perhaps you should be excused on account of your age, but some things aren't even funny eh, ....
a certain responsibility comes along with the freedom to speak freely ... 
this remind me of the 1960s Confrontation... -
Frankly speaking, I don't mind being ruled from Canberra. Not at all.Originally posted by ceecookie:im not saying they must...im just a bit angry....
this remind me of the 1960s Confrontation... -
I have always expressed concern at the way interrogation is being conducted in Singapore but in this case, I don't think that is an issue. He had a huge amount of the drug strapped to his back as well as within his luggage. You cannot say that you are not aware of the dope when you have strapped it on your back. I don't think his guilt is an issue here.Originally posted by iveco:I have no question about enforcement, but God alone knows if interrogation was accompanied by torture. Also, there appears to be too much power in hte hands of the prosecutors to some extent. -
Like I said, Ngyuen was just plain unlucky. I can't say the same for Ah Hao, though.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I have always expressed concern at the way interrogation is being conducted in Singapore but in this case, I don't think that is an issue. He had a huge amount of the drug strapped to his back as well as within his luggage. You cannot say that you are not aware of the dope when you have strapped it on your back. I don't think his guilt is an issue here. -
And that would be a very good thing!!!Originally posted by iveco:If all of us were to boycott drugs and cigarettes, the opium growers and tobacco farmers would be driven out of business. Not to mention the drug laboratories and cigarette manufacturers. -
I wouldn't blame hi sluck...I blame his actionOriginally posted by iveco:Like I said, Ngyuen was just plain unlucky. I can't say the same for Ah Hao, though. -
He could have easily slipped past if the metal detectors had not sounded, and nobody would even know he was carrying drugs.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I wouldn't blame hi sluck...I blame his action -
From Yahoo news.
Singapore says Aussie got fair hearing
Singapore's top envoy says a bid for clemency by an Australian man on death row had been given fair hearing and the government could not make an exception.
Former Melbourne salesman, Nguyen Tuong Van, 25, was caught with 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body and in his hand luggage at Singapore's Changi airport in 2002.
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He is expected to be executed in the next four to six weeks.
Joseph Koh, Singapore's high commissioner to Australia, said Nguyen's plea for clemency had been dealt with fairly.
"He was given a fair hearing throughout the legal process and his appeal for clemency was carefully considered," Mr Koh said in a statement.
"After taking into account all factors, the president, on the advice of the cabinet, was unable to make an exception to Mr Nguyen's case.
"I understand that this decision is difficult for his family to accept.
"But the stand the government has taken on Mr Nguyen is consistent with the firm position that Singapore has taken on similar cases in the past involving Singaporeans and foreigners alike.
"Not everyone may agree with our view, but I hope they will understand Singapore's position."
Mr Koh said Singapore took a serious view of all drug offences.
"We weigh the rights of offenders against the rights of victims and the rights of the community to live and work in safety and security," he said.
"Our strict anti-drug laws send a clear message to drug syndicates not to conduct their criminal activities in Singapore or through Singapore.
"Our policy has been well-publicised and Mr Nguyen was well aware of it."
Nguyen, who had no previous criminal record, told Singapore's High Court he was lured by a Sydney-based drug syndicate to act as a drug mule to repay $25,000 in debts owed by his twin brother, Khoa. -
Canberra calls in a favour on Nguyen
From: By Michael McKenna
October 27, 2005
AUSTRALIA'S extradition of an accused killer to Singapore last month will be used in a last-ditch bid to save Melbourne drug-trafficker Van Tuong Nguyen from execution.
A local civil rights group will today hold a press conference in Singapore, detailing its legal case and accuse leaders of the island nation of imposing a "disproportionate and cruel" punishment on the 25-year-old salesman.
It marks only the second time in Singapore's 40-year history that a death penalty case has led to a public outcry.
The first case involved champion athlete Shanmugan Murugesu, described as a "Death Row confidant" of Nguyen. He was convicted of smuggling marijuana and hanged in May.
Civil rights group Think Centre will today detail the eleventh-hour legal effort as well as launch a public petition to spare him from the gallows.
The public protest is understood to have been delayed until a decision was announced by the Singapore Government over his plea for clemency, which was rejected last week despite appeals from the Howard Government. Nguyen is to be hanged within the next six weeks.
He was caught in transit at Singapore's Changi International Airport in December 2002 while flying from Cambodia to Melbourne with 393g of heroin strapped to his back and in his hand luggage.
Think Centre president Sinapan Samydori said the death penalty - mandatory for convicted murderers, traitors and drug-traffickers caught possessing more than 15g of heroin or 500g of marijuana - should not be applied to Nguyen.
"Death is disproportionate given the nature of his crime, his youth, lack of criminal history and his opportunity for rehabilitation," he said.
High-profile Singaporean lawyer M. Shavi, who will spearhead the new legal team for Nguyen, said a brief to President SR Nathan would rest heavily on the extradition from Australia of Michael McCrea.
The British businessman, originally from Nottingham, England, has been charged with killing his chauffeur Kho Nai Guan and the driver's girlfriend, Lan Ya Ming in January 2002.
The Howard Government agreed to extradite Mr McCrea after the Singapore Government pledged not to execute him.
Mr Shavi said he would argue a breach of the Singaporean constitution in extending clemency to one person, charged with a capital offence, while not showing the same sort of consideration to Nguyen.
"The Constitution guarantees equal treatment before the law and clearly that is not happening with these two people, one extradited from Australia and one an Australian national," he said. -
extradition of the british?
he murdered 2 people but our govt promised them death sentence will not be imposed.
that is ridiculous. -
You want him in jail or running free?I'd take the former.Originally posted by dragg:extradition of the british?
he murdered 2 people but our govt promised them death sentence will not be imposed.
that is ridiculous.
Look at it this way, I do not recognise the validity of the death penalty and so do a rising number of informed individuals.Furthermore, executing Nguyen is akin to letting the big guns go free as he would have died FOR them. -
Singapore government position in death penalty for drug runners is not convincing ih the face of international drug situation and drug control.
Death internationally is an extreme and barbaric penalty to be justified on exceptionally strong ground. As society civilises, it can be expected too that Death is imposed only as a sentence of last resort as is now seen happening in most countries with some countries abolishing death penalty except for the most serious crimes like murder or treason.
Many people got into drug running or trafficking out of desparations. Anyone can make a mistake as well. Usually the runners who are caught are not the perpetrators who are the real culprits deserving death penalty. It is quite unimaginably barbaric to punish anyone with death penalty just because he has been used or he was drawn into drug trafficking by his own vulnerability or weakness.
Do such people deserve death. Yes, they deserve serious punishment for even minor trafficking. Isn't this deterrent ? If not deterrent enough does it follow that only death is deterrent and there is no more drug trafficking today. We simply cannot reduce drug trafficking even if we impose death sentences on drug trafficking. The only way to prevent or eradicate drug trafficking is to go after the masterminds or perpetrators.
I feel that with death penalty many weaker or vulnerable people are still unwittingly falling into the death traps not for wilfulness but due to circumstances of weakness or vulnerability. If we cannot stop or substantially reduce drug trafficking even with death penalty then we are only being paranoid about drug trafficking to the extent of being barbaric - like killing whole family of the guilty in ancient China to please emperor's rage.
We should ask whether it is possible to substantially reduce drug trafficking by going after the runners who are mostly people falling into death trap due to circumstances not for wilful perpetration of drugs.
If there has been harshness in our drug laws, we should be prepared and open-minded to want to review it. When it comes a point of time we cannot change anything with continuing death penalty continuing death penalty for drug traffickers is simply paranoid.
Go and catch the drug kings and masterminds not all the runners. In any crimes of seriousness, they are best dealt with by punishing the masterminds behind not try to get more unwitting people or fall guys. For example if we want to stop copyright infringements, the best way to do it is to crack the mastermind not the minor copying by some students. -
Our CNB ain't having the global reach of the DEA.But somehow we want to aspire to be no.1..and on the blood of the small fry.
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was he unlucky or those who got through were lucky? The Chinese say " shang de shan duo zhong yu hu." Go up the mountain often enough you will meet the tiger.Originally posted by iveco:Like I said, Ngyuen was just plain unlucky. I can't say the same for Ah Hao, though.
Decide if it is worthwhile doing it, luck will run out someday, we will continue to argue, but if it is your life, is there a better choice between life imprisonment and death penalty?
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The mafia chiefs can always get another mule to take his place, since there are so many desperadoes out there. Executing Ngyuen does not solve the problem if we are not going to look at the root causes of his offence.Originally posted by LazerLordz:You want him in jail or running free?I'd take the former.
Look at it this way, I do not recognise the validity of the death penalty and so do a rising number of informed individuals.Furthermore, executing Nguyen is akin to letting the big guns go free as he would have died FOR them. -
it might be a good thing if these people are driven out of business. Of course, we'll have to find new jobs for the retrenched workers from these industries though...Originally posted by iveco:It is the individual's choice whether he wants to inject himself with heroin or pump tar into his lungs.
If all of us were to boycott drugs and cigarettes, the opium growers and tobacco farmers would be driven out of business. Not to mention the drug laboratories and cigarette manufacturers.
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so what are the root causes of his offence? the mafia chiefs are supposed to be in the jungle in Myanmar, who should go and get them? singapore CNB ?Originally posted by iveco:The mafia chiefs can always get another mule to take his place, since there are so many desperadoes out there. Executing Ngyuen does not solve the problem if we are not going to look at the root causes of his offence.
How does ngyuen distribute his drugs if he managed to bring into australia? surely if he is not the door to door salesman.
First get all the australian to boycott cigarettes and drugs, get the australian government to smash the local drug syndicate, put the distributors in jails, and when there is no demand, there is no need to transit drug in singapore, then there will be no issue of sentencing any australian drug trafficker. Peace be to all of us. -
So in the interim, just because we dont have a rich heritage of legal and constitutional freedoms doesn't mean we have to be barbaric.Originally posted by sgdiehard:so what are the root causes of his offence? the mafia chiefs are supposed to be in the jungle in Myanmar, who should go and get them? singapore CNB ? How does ngyuen distribute his drugs if he managed to bring into australia? surely if he is not the door to door salesman.
First get all the australian to boycott cigarettes and drugs, get the australian government to smash the local drug syndicate, put the distributors in jails, and when there is no demand, there is no need to transit drug in singapore, then there will be no issue of sentencing any australian drug trafficker. Peace be to all of us. -
SGdiehard,
1) ok, I get your position, and I agree with that in principle. But of course alot of the points u mentioned could be called into question in practice.
2) Ermm, r u in the correct thread?
3) My impression seems to be that you are mixing up 2 different issues here. And also rmb, the Ozs are quite a diverse population, even within a single state.
So some may understadn Singapore's laws, whilst others may not. It is worng to blanket-assume that al OZs are highly-educated and rich and so on.
4) what is "necessary legal assistance"? The man convicted before him was refused the legal assistance he requested. The motive was clearly ignored, despite pleas from both the Australian Counsel and the accused's family. Your last sentence is a very callous sentence, especially sicne we neglect to consider that the Judges, including CJ (who is not known for being very fair), might have made mistakes in their judgement or analysis of evidence; even the police might have made mistakes; after all, everybody is human. Not to mention that the evidence of possession provided to convict for the mandatory sentence would be considered extremely flimsy evidence if used in the presence of a foreign court. Remember my analogy of the valentines' day gift in my previous post?
5) I'm talking about traffickers as a whole here, not just this particular case.
6) thx, I noe tt already. But I have an interesting question to ask you: if the latter happens to someone who is extremely gullible, (say a honkee), then do you think it just to take that person as guilty?
7) evidence of business calls, signed agreements, mysterious swiss bank accounts etc. But anyway, I just read a letter of clemency from ACADP which sorta mentioned he did have links with smuggling gangs.
But nonetheless, the fairness of the punishment can still be called into question, given his motive and the fact that he helped Australian police uncover captains of the drug smuggling ring he was working for. Refer to Think Centre for more details.
8 ) Law itself is determined by ideology of the government, so I don't see your logic. Btw, I believe robertteh discusses Democracy's relevance to Singapore in another thread, and many other threads do so besides. So you shouldn't be asking that question.
9) Why not? Think in terms of an MNC for drug-trafficking; Corporate politics IS very dirty indeed.
10) I believe we have discussed this point before. We should be dealing with the demand, not the supply; the nice piece of logic wou have written here proves that. As for why it had to transit through Singapore - well, erpz, blame it on the flightplan of the individual airlines; note that Ngyuen did not take a private jet.
11) Osama directly instigates people to kill because he wants certain people to be killed. The druglords on the other hand have the same excuse as the tobacco companies (n IMHO btw, it is suspected that many of them orignate from legal corporations in their host country e.g. Myanmar) : The death resulting from drug consumption is just an unpleasant side-effect, and they cannot be held responsible for it. Drug traffickers are emrely MLMs.
Osama, however, does not necessarily supply the bombs; he doesn't sell them. He teachess people how to make them, or gives them the bombs for free. He is not a corporate boss; he is a general (of a twisted sort, anw) of an Islamic Army. "Al Quaeda" means something like "People for Islam". Osama hence does not provide merchandise. What his followers do with teh bombs he supplies them - i.e. whether the bombs are sold or not - is irrelevant to this issue. On the other hand, the druglords are recruiting people merely to sell produced goods - they do not have fanatical followers the same way Al Quaeda has.
12) Why don't you shoot your own child instead, sicne after all s/he has the choice whether to buy the drug or not. After all, the peddler is not the one who consumes the drug; it is your child who does.
the (humoured) pikamaster -
There are too many assumptions and theories embedded in our laws based on punishment versus cure. I wonder what will a panel of experts find of such morass of assumptions. Are the assumptions giving us results or benefits in nation building or are they merely expression of ancient Emporor ego to slaughter whole family to deter anyone from committing state crimes. Until we get a closer detached study done we will never grow up to develop our own richness of culture.Originally posted by LazerLordz:So in the interim, just because we dont have a rich heritage of legal and constitutional freedoms doesn't mean we have to be barbaric. -
agree totally.Originally posted by robertteh:There are too many assumptions and theories embedded in our laws based on punishment versus cure. I wonder what will a panel of experts find of such morass of assumptions. Are the assumptions giving us results or benefits in nation building or are they merely expression of ancient Emporor ego to slaughter whole family to deter anyone from committing state crimes. Until we get a closer detached study done we will never grow up to develop our own richness of culture.
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ya.. say so nice. how?[/b]Originally posted by robertteh:There are too many assumptions and theories embedded in our laws based on punishment versus cure. I wonder what will a panel of experts find of such morass of assumptions. Are the assumptions giving us results or benefits in nation building or are they merely expression of ancient Emporor ego to slaughter whole family to deter anyone from committing state crimes. Until we get a closer detached study done we will never grow up to develop our own richness of culture.