Death Penalty Appeal
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Precisely. Isn't this a loophole? He wasn't intending to smuggle them into Singapore to begin with.Originally posted by dragg:it is unfair to compare that way.
bomb and drug is guarded under different laws.
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of course they are covered under different laws ....Originally posted by dragg:it is unfair to compare that way.
bomb and drug is guarded under different laws.
but are they different ? ... a quick death and a slow death perhaps ... both are instruments of crimes against a society ....
It would be illogical to say that we should not catch someone for drugs smuggling simply because the chap wasn't smuggling it into singapore ... would you call the police if you see your neighbour's house being burglarized ? ... or you'd bua bodoh because it's not your house anyways ? ... -
that's my point.Originally posted by ^spidee^:Precisely. Isn't this a loophole? He wasn't intending to smuggle them into Singapore to begin with.
why do we want to put the blood in our own hands?
all we could do is impose a jail term (since the intended victim is not singaporeans) or
tip off the airport authorities of his final destination. how they want to punish him is none of our concern. -
On one hand we don't want to become a transit hub for WMD, drugs etc but we can also choose to just put his ass in jail for life or something.
I'd say amend the drug laws to detention without trial.Now wouldn't that solve this drug trade problem much efficiently than using the death penalty?It was effective in containing the problem of organized crime..Declare drugs as a threat against national security too..why not.
stop putting blood on our hands and utilise this CLA(Temporary Provisions) to deal with the drug smugglers and traffickers.At least if the guy is alive, his case can be reviewed if there is new evidence to exonerate him.Killing him in mistake is one sin we should not add. -
it is 'fair' to hang those bringing drugs into singapore as a deterrent to protect our people. but not those in transit.
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Very true indeed.Originally posted by LazerLordz:stop putting blood on our hands and utilise this CLA(Temporary Provisions) to deal with the drug smugglers and traffickers.At least if the guy is alive, his case can be reviewed if there is new evidence to exonerate him.Killing him in mistake is one sin we should not add. -
Fatum, you are in Canada, aren't you? I understand that the Canadians have done away with capital punishment. How is the crime rate there?
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With this, I think our government's hope or intention of cultivating a Gracious and Courteous society, is as good as being thrown out of the window.
Mine is mine, my way is my way, I'm not giving way no matter who or what. -
I can say that people fear our ISA more than our drug laws, as per the simple statistical figures for crimes relating to either law.Originally posted by iveco:Very true indeed. -
pikamaster,Originally posted by pikamaster:You probably don't understand the nature of Australia and the Australian government. I am pretty certain that the common Australian may have agreed with the essence of what Mr Howard said, but not the details. And IMHO, many Australians do not really like Mr Howard. Mr Howard represents the Australian GOVERNMENT and only a section btw. Mr Downer and the Governor of Victoria, when pleading for clemency for Ngyuen, repesent the Aussie PEOPLE. Unlike down here, where people are forced to think like the government, in Australia and the West, Citizens tend to disagree with their government on many counts and display their disagreement.
isn't agreeing with the essence of what Mr Howard said the same as saying that death sentence is acceptable under certain circumstances? Isn't that double standard?
i think it is too far-fetched to say that we are forced to think like the government. Nobody can be forced to think in a certain way. People can only be brainwashed into believing and thinking in a certain way. Anyway, nowadays more and more Singaporeans are disagreeing with the government and are showing it in the internet. -
The thing is, Singapore is famous (or infamous) for its tough, merciless drug laws.. such that as far as other countries are concerned, as long as the inbound flight to their country originated from Singapore, the customs there will tend not to be so strict as far as checking for drugs are concerned.
This provides the perfect setting for drug traffickers to utilise Singapore as a 'transit hub' for drugs. Anyway, what's the risk of having your belongings frisked while in transit at Changi Airport? This is probably the reason why some drug traffickers deliberately transit at Changi Airport rather than head directly to their destination country.
Otherwise it beats me why didn't Nguyen Tuong Van fly directly to Melbourne from Phnom Penh, or transit via a country which does not have such strict drug laws (maybe thailand) as ours?
The Singapore government has the duty to stop Singapore from deteriorating into a 'Drug Transit Hub', hence the need to impose the death penalty even on drug traffickers in transit. Cos basically, we have a reputation to protect. -
Govt explains no clemency stand
By Tanya Fong
Nov 4, 2005
The Straits Times
SINGAPORE has told the Australian government that it 'considered all the relevant factors' before deciding not to grant clemency to 25-year-old Nguyen Tuong Van, an Australian sentenced to death for smuggling heroin.
On Oct 25, Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer sent a letter appealing to his counterpart here, Mr George Yeo, to spare Nguyen the death sentence.
In his reply on Wednesday, Mr Yeo said the Government took into account Nguyen's 'sad personal circumstances and his value as a potential source of information' when considering his case.
Said Mr Yeo: 'However, due to the seriousness of the offence and the need to hold firm our national position against drug trafficking, we are unable to change our decision.
'It was not a decision taken lightly.'
Nguyen, he said, was carrying almost 400g of pure heroin, which would have supplied more than 26,000 doses to drug addicts.
As well as Mr Downer's letter, the Australian parliament passed a resolution on Monday also appealing for clemency.
Mr Yeo also wrote a similar but separate letter of reply to Mr Kevin Rudd, the Australian shadow foreign minister of the opposition Labor Party. He had joined the ruling party in seeking clemency for Nguyen. Nguyen was arrested in December 2002 at Changi Airport while on transit from Cambodia to Melbourne.
He was found guilty of smuggling 396g of heroin and sentenced to death last Marchin the High Court.
Nguyen, a salesman of Vietnamese descent from Melbourne, admitted he acted as a drug courier to help his twin brother pay off debts to loan sharks.
Under the Misuse of Drugs Act, the penalty for the illegal traffic, import or export of more than 15g of heroin is death.
According to foreign media reports, Mr Downer said he was still seeking advice from the Australian Federal Police and other authorities on the sort of evidence Nguyen might be able to provide in future drug cases in a bid to mount another appeal. -
Prayer for man on death row in Singapore
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November 6, 2005 - 10:34AM
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More than 1,000 people packed St Patrick's Catholic cathedral in Melbourne on Sunday for an inter-faith service to pray for an Australian national on death row in Singapore.
Nguyen's Tuong Van's mother, Kim Nguyen, sat throughout the service with her hands held in silent prayer, except for when she joined family and friends at the altar.
After the service an emotional Mrs Nguyen said she was grateful for the support.
"Everyone who comes to help, they pray for my son today, thank you," Mrs Nguyen said.
She said she did not know if her son was aware of the prayer services and the swell of support from the community in Australia.
"I wish he knows, but I am really not sure."
She said she has not received any letters or phone calls from her son, and the only contact has been through glass during a visit to Changi prison in Singapore, where her son has been for the past three years.
"No nothing, I just go to Singapore and visit him in front of the glass for about half an hour.
"Very hard, three years already."
The service began with the chanting of the Mantra for the presentation of life by the monks of the Quang Minh temple in Melbourne.
There were no testimonials, just prayers offered in English and Vietnamese for the 25-year-old, who could face the gallows sometime in the next four weeks.
Father Peter Hansen told the congregation, which ranged in age from young babies to the elderly, and was a mixture of different cultures, that Nguyen, like Sir Thomas Moore, would reflect on his life during his time behind bars.
Sir Thomas was the Renaissance English author and Catholic martyr, who was found guilty of treason and spent time in the Tower of London, before he was beheaded on July 6, 1535.
Fr Hansen said both men "had gone to the darkest place that any human being could wish to got to."
And he said like Sir Thomas, Nguyen had "suffered deprivation of his liberty".
Among those in the congregation were Nguyen's Melbourne legal team, Lex Lasry, QC, who sat beside Mrs Nguyen, and fellow lawyer, Julian McMahon.
Outside the church Mr Lasry reiterated that they have not given up the fight.
"All time passing means is that we keep fighting ... as I have said plenty of times before, we're going to keep pushing on," Mr Lasry said.
"We've got a number of arguments to put and a number of steps to take yet and so we just keep going."
Mr Lasry said the turn-out meant a lot to Nguyen's family.
"It shows them that they've got great support in the extraordinary difficulties that they have to deal with and I think that's a very important thing," he said.
"Our client's mother knows she is not alone and that she is being supported by a wide range of people."
He said he suspected Nguyen was aware of some support from home.
"Knowing Van I'm sure he's very pleased and quite moved by it".
Fr Peter Norden, from the Jesuit Social Services, said that the service was a sign of solidarity by the Victorian community about its belief in the dignity of all life.
"There was easily one thousand people in the church, it was full," Fr Norden said.
"Even though this young man's been convicted of an offence, we don't believe that he deserves to lose his life."
Bronwyn Lew, who has been behind the Reach Out for Van campaign, said she was overwhelmed by the support.
"It is wonderful and I think it's a good opportunity for people to show their support by coming here today," Ms Lew said.
"We need to keep hope and we need to keep fighting."
She said that they had also received emails from around the world in support of the Reach out for Van campaign.
"We've been receiving hands from big to small, adult hands to baby hands on coloured pieces of paper, and some are written in different languages and some from different countries, which is very beautiful.
"We hope that with these hands we can carry the message to the Singapore government that Van's life should be spared, and he doesn't deserve to die."
Nguyen was caught smuggling 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body and in his hand luggage at Changi airport in Singapore in 2002. -
Don't compare Ngyuen with St Thomas Moore. One is a criminal, another was a patriot. Ngyuen wilfully broke the law by using Singapore as a transit point for drug running, while the other opposed his monarch's second marriage on moral grounds.
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Instead of hanging him, force him to swallow all 396g of heroin...give him a high before he goes.
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wonder how he feels knowing there is no way out for him.
cb, death is a scaring thing. he is afterall such a young man. a vietnamese given a chance to live in beautiful australia. just because of one mistake and all hell broke loose.
sometimes i wonder if the death sentence is really necessary. i have doubts too. -
good to see you still have a heartOriginally posted by dragg:wonder how he feels knowing there is no way out for him.
cb, death is a scaring thing. he is afterall such a young man. a vietnamese given a chance to live in beautiful australia. just because of one mistake and all hell broke loose.
sometimes i wonder if the death sentence is really necessary. i have doubts too.
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not much left though.Originally posted by pikamaster:good to see you still have a heart 
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Same as schools rejecting a student for lack of 1 grade. And accepting another student who meet all the grades but grades are overall poorer than the former.Originally posted by dragg:australia will continue to appeal for clemency on behalf of one of its citizen sentenced to death for trafficking 400g of heroin.
they have not given up yet after repeated rejections by our government. -
what's the accuracy of your analogy?Originally posted by redstone:Same as schools rejecting a student for lack of 1 grade. And accepting another student who meet all the grades but grades are overall poorer than the former.
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The United Nations Universal Decalration Of Human Rights reads
- everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person
- everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
- Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
Article 6 of International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
1. Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.
2. In countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes in accordance with the law in force at the time of the commission of the crime and not contrary to the provisions of the present Covenant and to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This penalty can only be carried out pursuant to a final judgement rendered by a competent court.
3. When deprivation of life constitutes the crime of genocide, it is understood that nothing in this article shall authorize any State Party to the present Covenant to derogate in any way from any obligation assumed under the provisions of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
4. Anyone sentenced to death shall have the right to seek pardon or commutation of the sentence. Amnesty, pardon or commutation of the sentence of death may be granted in all cases.
5. Sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age and shall not be carried out on pregnant women.
6. Nothing in this article shall be invoked to delay or to prevent the abolition of capital punishment by any State Party to the present Covenant.
I was wondering if the court has allowed the person caught traficking drugs to appeal. The Australian government has taken the liberty to help one to appeal.
Should Singapore consider abolishing death sentences and have life sentenced as an alternative.
Frankly speaking, what's the bloody use of hanging someone for a death caused? He just dies with that little suffering. Why not let that convited person spend his life in prison till he dies. It's much painful to know where you are going to die but not knowing when. Is't that a better way out.
Also, Singapore has agreed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which clearly states everyone has the right to life.
Who's in to appeal to the government to abolish the death sentence and have a life sentence replacing the former? -
Singapore Government won't spend money feeding prisoners. That's realpolitik..
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SGdiehard,
I am not unrreasonable.
2-4) I say Forbes' and Ariel's posts are lacking in substance not because they disagree with me - FYI, I'm perfectly willing to engage or even accept another point of view, and I make that clear in this forum when I answer people's posts with "I see" or "I agree" or "yes" or "I see your point" - but because the weakness of their argument can easily be proved from reference to linguistic material on logical fallacies provided by secondary school or University. I have spent quite a sizeable portion of my post discussing Ariel's inaccuracies, and I have said, in fashion, that Forbes' letter is so short that it would probably score a 2 in an SAT exam (which I am taking on Dec 3). :mregreen:
IMHO, if my character was that which you assume me to possess, then I would be calling *your* posts insubstantial and refusing to answer them, rather than providing you detailed, if unclear, analyses to each section of your post.
6) I'll reply to this paragraph later, because I need to look for Ariel's letter.
7) Please don't put words into my mouth.
10) Saying that a student didn't do his CME homework properly is not the same as saying that he didn't do his CME homework peroid.
11) America is a federation of states which is less united than u think. Half of the USA is retentionist; the other half is abolitionist. In many ways, in fact, the USA appears to be a microcosm of the UN.
13) I was using Heroin as an example, not ecstasy. Nonetheless, even for ecstasy, if companies like GSM started to market new medicinal products that had the same effects, but not the same side-effects and addictive capability, as the constituents of (illegal) ecstasy pills (i.e. amphetamine, ketamine, FXM, ephedrine etc.), then probably we wouldn't have to worry about ecstasy pills as a problem, since there would be no more demand for them.
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17) And the relevance of this to your quote is... ???
19) I do respect what they are doing for me. You seem to have misunderstood the section you quoted.
21) Jeez, I hate the condescension of "y r too young". Why don't you just explain to me, if you want to make a point. But anyway, however an adult can shoot a drug traffficker, nonetheless it is unhealthy for his / her child to in/directly experience the violence. So anyway ...
23) Well, giving them the right to survive is only one part of the larger picture. Clearly, if we do not find a way to integrate them back into society, they will be compelled to re-commit their crimes, and social integration also happens to be an essential requirement of helping ex-convicts live out their lives as useful and law-abiding citizens. But then of coruse, it takes 2 hands to clap - having one without the other is fully useless. There is no point in helping a dead man re-integrate into society, or to spare a man's life in the barest sense but isolate him from the community such that s/he has no alternative except to seek social security (which IS NOT available in Singapore since the govt likes ruggedness so much) or commot crime, than blame him/ her for being lazy or using his/her example to apparently prove that "many criminals repeating crimes after jail". Kind of like the pot calling the cattle black, eh?
25) That's the problem with retentionists: the victims are always innocent, true, but isn't there a possibility that the convicted accused is innocent too, say framed or whatever? After all, police are also human beings; tehy may misinterpret information or come to incorrect conclusions based on extrapolations from incomplete information. Judges are also not perfect: Seriously, does YPH look like a saint to you? Judges are people too, and they can make mistakes in judgement; experience reduces the chance of making mistakes, but it does not eliminate that possibility.
Blindly following a trend is indeed unhealthy, but so is blindly rejecting to follow all trends per se. At the end of the day, we need to appreciate the fact that a trend means the presence of a huge mass of people, and that there must be a certain strong attractive force to bind so many people to one cause. In the Death Penalty's case, unlike in the case of teenage idols, the cause is a moral cause, and moral causes are seldom incorrect because they base themselves on caring for the welfare of others.
IMHO, abolitionists recognize that the attitude is just as important as the physical legislation itself, thus they define 2 forms of abolitionism : totally abolitionist and abolitionist in practice. A totally abolitionist country has scrapped laws for the Death Penalty, whilst a country which is abolitionist in practice has not scrapped the Penalty, but nonetheless has ceased performing executions for a relatively long number of years (eg. 25 yrs) , thus signalling a change in mindset and attitudes of the government officials, and sometimes even the people of those countries.
27) Well, you certainly aren't abolitionist.
Can you prove that the following laws are just: Sedition Act, Land Acquisition Act, Newspaper and Printing Presses Act, just to name a few? (This is not a rhetorical question, jic u think it is.) I have no doubts that our laws are fair in that they dole out equal punnishment to all those convicted, but fair laws are not necessarily just laws.
29) Don't try and twist my words. Needs are excessively strong desires in the case of abstract principles: justice (supported by the retentionist camp) as as abstract a concept as human dignity (supported by the abolitionist camp). When I say or imply lack of awareness, I mean lack of awareness of facts. Facts in this case doesn't just mean statistics proving the presence or absence of the DP's effect, or the financial costs or savings incurred by it, but also means knowing and understanding and empathising with convicts on the Death Row, the executioner who apparently can't find a suitable replacement, and the CJ, who to his personal credit, did feel moral uneasiness at sentencing Vignes Mourthi to the DP. Our press and local media do not cover such perspectives enough. It is through the set of facts provided to the person that makes the person see the need or lack thereof for the action or policy to be implemented. In such respect, I have to say that AI officials have more experience than you, me or even perhaps the government in such awareness, since they take part in prison inspections and full court hearings with other international organizations. Sometimes, they even interview the various people involved.
I am not conducting a fallacy of gross generalization, because I acknowledge that it is the majority, and not the entire, population which is politically apathetic. And anyway, we can prove that. Even looking at SGForums alone, there are many more forumnites in the other forums combined than in this one.
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31) Oh please, don't go so low as to start a chain of personal insults. IMHO, ad hominems are usually conducted by people who realize that their case doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, but who still wish to impose their case on a moral high ground to others' cases. Moderate abolitionists like AI do not conduct Ad Hominems in their reports, speeches or other documents. In contrast, our government and its supporters enjoy performing Ad hominems on those who refuse to agree with them: "western-influenced liberals", "confrontational press", "degrade the credibility of her office", "quitters", "politically-motivated".
Ad hominems all share a similar facet: ALL without fail commit the fallacy of Gross Generalization or the Fallacy of Composition.
For example, "confrontational press" neglects the fact that Western presses do praise their governments for jobs well done, or that they do give appraisal in their commentaries. For example, when the IHT or the BBC assess the life or reign of a political ruler such as Margaret Thatcher, they do provide acknowledgement for the contributions made whilst criticising the ruler as well. When commenting on the policies, frequently these newspapers will make comparisons between different administrations; the NYT for example might compare Kennedy's administration with Bush's, and will mention the strengths and weaknesses of each. In editorials, the newspapers will try to give as objective an analysis as possible. Op-eds are usually more partisan, but better writers such as David Brooks and Thomas Friedman, will be pretty moderate in their comments. You will also tend to see counter-arguments laid out in progression. For example, if on Monday, there is an article criticising Senate for slow decision-making, on Thursday or Friday, the NYT will publish an Op-ed staunchly defending the slowness of the Senate. American and other Western papers are open to comments from all sections of the political spectrum; they are not like say Al Jeezera, which only focuses on Pro-muslim, anti-Western propaganda. The Western Press is not merely confrontational.
"politically-motivated", likewise, fails to recognize that not all politically-active citizens or foreigners are here to overthrow the government or create riots. Calling international organizations like UNCHR and AI that is simply disgraceful, since it neglects the fact that these organizations are usually those who protest the loudest against any form of violence; It's just that they do not discriminate like governments do: they criticize abuse of governmental powers and violence of governmental actions as much as they criticize the violence of the bombings of Al Quaeda. When riots or genocide occurs, AI will usually pretty quickly call for investigation by the international community and the local government, especially if the organization suspects that it is the work of terrorists. It will urge ,in its Urgent Actions Appeals, the involved government to bring the perpetrators to justice as quickly as possible. True, AI oraganizes protest marches, but protest marches are not analogous to riots, and that is a mistake MHA frequently makes.
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You obviously don't understand fallacies. Ad Misericordiam refers to an appeal to pity. I have not used such an appeal. Have you seen these phrases in any of my posts: Oh, we abolitionists are tortured by worldwide govenrments, denied funding by the IMF, threatened to be expelled from countries, short on money, forced to sink into endless depths of depression, such that some of us have even committed suicide, ruthlessly mocked whilst we watch country after country turn a blind eye to our appeals for justice, and have our hearts broken by loved ones who choose to dissociate from us and remain retentionist? This is Ad Misericordiam for you. A person or institution using Ad Misericordiam will focus pity upon himself/herself or itself. I, or any other abolitionist for the matter, have not performed any such argument.
On the other hand, objectively compare the retentionists' underlying arguments in summary: We are the poor innocent folk (sound at least vaguely familiar?) who are being imposed upon by the cruel, thoughtless abolitionists who wish to ensure that if one of our loved ones was murdered, we would be forced to spread out tears over his/her grave with yet the fear that another of our loved ones or even ourselves might be killed by this demon which has been allowed to go scot-free. we have already shown enough mercy by letting them go on trial. Those horrid abolitionists wish our societies to descend into anarchy, where everybody will die from drug addiction, gun usage and serial murder. Then, they wish us to spend our life savings on
furnishing prisons for twisted hearts who should burn in the Eternal Fire or be denied Nirvana or be destroyed by the Wrath of Yu Huang Da Di and be forsaken by Guanyin Pusa. Doesn't all these show that the abolitionists are evil beings who do not care for us , their fellow humans on this planet?
If the previous prargraph sounds exaggerative to you, I provide the relevant paraphrases (in the appropriate colours):-
innocent victims
deterrent effect (of the death penalty) OR deters crime OR accounts for a lower crime rate OR our children will die from the [poisons] the drug-traffickers sell
unrepentant criminals OR criminals who commit crimes after release from prison OR dangerous megalomaniacs OR people with a taste for blood OR psychos
Hanging is more humane than the Electric Chair OR Lethal injections offer painless deaths (something which these murderers do not deserve)
Without the Death Penalty, crime rates would escalate OR we will become the drug-trafficking regional centre if there is no control imposed OR The high level of public safety is due to the existence of the Death Penalty OR do you want us to become like the USA, where 1 American dies every hour from a gunshot wound?
It costs more to incarcerate than to execute a person OR why should we waste taxpayers' money on them
they should not even have been born OR they ought to fry in Hell OR an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth
These westerners who seek to impose their values on us do not understand our unique and delicate circumstances OR the over-generalizing western liberals
If you look around at govt press releases, this forum and other sites, you are sure to find these arguments presented for the retentionist case. I challenge you to find an exception.
*sigh*
Ok, perhaps I shouldn't have put in the adverb, but nonetheless, It is true that retentionists refuse to even consider the abolitionists' points as plausible. They retreat back constantly into the Ad Misericordiam arguments above to justify their stance.
33) Jeez, what have I been doing for the last few posts?
G'nite
The pikamaster (who got his 2 S levels
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