Death Penalty Appeal
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pearlie,Originally posted by pearlie27:pikamaster,
isn't agreeing with the essence of what Mr Howard said the same as saying that death sentence is acceptable under certain circumstances? Isn't that double standard?
i think it is too far-fetched to say that we are forced to think like the government. Nobody can be forced to think in a certain way. People can only be brainwashed into believing and thinking in a certain way. Anyway, nowadays more and more Singaporeans are disagreeing with the government and are showing it in the internet.
In Ngyuen's case, the Aussie government was acting out the wishes of the Aussies, whilst in Howard's speech, he was only acting out his own wishes or that of his politcal party's.
What is your definition of "brainwashed"?
the (abolitionist) pikamaster -
Since of the members don't support hanging Nguyen,would anyone start a petition?
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this case reminds me of a case a long time ago where a german female was caught with drugs. she was initally charged with trafficking but later the police changed their charge as they determined the amount was insufficient. i find this episode quite incredible.
i wonder what would happen if it was the aust girl that was caught in bali was caught in singapore and we gave her the death sentence. the storm it would create would be incredible.
btw, i do not approve of the killing of drug mules.
hopefully, aust will say they need the man in court and then jail him back in aust. -
Sometimes we have to weigh international relations and sovereignty much more objectively.
Something interesting from UK's The Guardian ..circa 2001..
http://www.sfdonline.org/Link%20Pages/Link%20Folders/01Pf/sweeney.html -
I don't doubt that the Aust govt would jail him. The hooo-hah in this case seems to be more about preserving SIngapore's reputation of the Death Penalty rather than criminal justice. Our local press is enjoying spending time printing out misguided letters arguing that if we let go of the Death Penalty we would start losing our sovereignty; and fallacious letters. I jsut can't understand it.Originally posted by Ara:this case reminds me of a case a long time ago where a german female was caught with drugs. she was initally charged with trafficking but later the police changed their charge as they determined the amount was insufficient. i find this episode quite incredible.
i wonder what would happen if it was the aust girl that was caught in bali was caught in singapore and we gave her the death sentence. the storm it would create would be incredible.
btw, i do not approve of the killing of drug mules.
hopefully, aust will say they need the man in court and then jail him back in aust.
the pikamaster -
Hang those bastards.Why should we listen to Australia? We have own LAWS.Imagine what kind of message are we sending to those who deal in drugs. DRUGS are menace to every society be it US, UK or Australia.In fact I hope to see those taking drugs to be hanged too instead of banning smoking.
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If that were the case, Singapore is a disgrace.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Sometimes we have to weigh international relations and sovereignty much more objectively.
Something interesting from UK's The Guardian ..circa 2001..
http://www.sfdonline.org/Link%20Pages/Link%20Folders/01Pf/sweeney.html
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This Burmese connection is something only keen political watchers would be really knowledgeable about.Originally posted by iveco:If that were the case, Singapore is a disgrace.
I remember once there was a anti-junta protest planned here but it was cancelled by the police too.
A search through the web would show that we and Israel did supply Burma with relatively highpowered ELINT surveillance equipment in the 80s and 90s. -
In China,one can get death penalty for corruption.Drug traffickers commit the crime for money.Should such crime get death penalty?Even one kill ppl (esp on roads)don't get hang in S'pore.Some flaw in our law,isn't it?
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spoken like a true-blue brigand!!!Originally posted by highway69:Hang those bastards.Why should we listen to Australia? We have own LAWS.Imagine what kind of message are we sending to those who deal in drugs. DRUGS are menace to every society be it US, UK or Australia.In fact I hope to see those taking drugs to be hanged too instead of banning smoking.
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I urge the Christians & Catholics in S'pore to speak up for this man who is sentenced to death. Or are we just playing the hypocrite on the one hand condemning abortion & cloning of human embryos, but on the other hand looking away when ppl r murdered? There's a right to life for everyone including criminals, while i agree murderers should be sentenced to death for killing innocent lives unless it's manslaughter or accidental murder.
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my dear adolescent pikamasterOriginally posted by pikamaster:pearlie,
In Ngyuen's case, the Aussie government was acting out the wishes of the Aussies, whilst in Howard's speech, he was only acting out his own wishes or that of his politcal party's.
What is your definition of "brainwashed"?
the (abolitionist) pikamaster
it is impossible to find a society/country where all its people totally agree or disagree in one thing. this is cos societies are made up of human beings and human beings are very complex creatures.
even in Singapore, some anti-death penalty folks also have double standard. They will protest for Ngyuen but not for Took who killed a 8-year old girl.
i think you should know that we don't live in a black and white world.
with your intelligence you should also know the meaning of brainwash.
cheers!
pearlie -
But Took Leng Hao's case is doubtful. There are just too many grey areas. I always thought there could be more to it than meets the eye. What if he wasn't the real killer?Originally posted by pearlie27:even in Singapore, some anti-death penalty folks also have double standard. They will protest for Ngyuen but not for Took who killed a 8-year old girl. -
No other country should interfere our law.
If our law says death penalty, it is death penalty. If our law says we should pay the MIW millions of dollar, we have to pay them.
Singaporeans should also not interfere. Because politics should only be handled by the politicians.
Politicians also cannot interfere matters that are not their business unless they wanted to be whipped.
Let the Lees decide on this matter bah. They are geniuses anyway -
Murderors deserve death penalties but not so for drug taffickers.They don't murder anyone.Drug addicts take drugs willingly.So the law should be amended.
TooFree,
The above msg is to answer your question. -
Regardless, he could have chosen another way to get to australia... but the thing is that people know that Singapore has very stringent laws on drug trafficking and yet they still choose to do it. Dosen't matter that he was only in transit, if he is on Singaporean soil, then he should be aware of the consequences of his actions.
What is the point of keeping these people alive so that they can reoffend again? How do you know that what he says is true? Anybody can tell a story? How many people have these kind of sob stories? You jail them and then what? The government has to feed him and they have to house him... guess who is paying the bill? Us, people who lead normal lives and work hard for our money, we pay taxes which are used to keep these people alive... now tell me that is fair?
Take for example the Australians involved in all the recent drug cases in Bali... the Michelle Corby thing was such a hoo ha in Australia, yet you still hear of silly Aussies who think that they can flout the law?
I do agree, we cannot change our laws to suit another contry, if we give in here, then what becomes of our justice system? It is all about our sovereignity.
By showing liency towards these drug mules, then we are also sending a message to all the drug lords out there that they can exploit to their advantage by cocercing all these "poor" people into doing their dirty work. We are handing power over to them. Think about this. This issue is far more complicatied than just Nguyen. -
Originally posted by PRP:
who says? Drugs kill... and they get a whole section of society into a never ending cycle of debt, trafficking and drugs all over again, we need to break this cycle.
Murderers deserve death penalties but not so for drug taffickers.[b]They don't murder anyone.Drug addicts take drugs willingly.So the law should be amended.[/b] -
breytonhartge,Originally posted by breytonhartge:Regardless, he could have chosen another way to get to australia... but the thing is that people know that Singapore has very stringent laws on drug trafficking and yet they still choose to do it. Dosen't matter that he was only in transit, if he is on Singaporean soil, then he should be aware of the consequences of his actions.
What is the point of keeping these people alive so that they can reoffend again? How do you know that what he says is true? Anybody can tell a story? How many people have these kind of sob stories? You jail them and then what? The government has to feed him and they have to house him... guess who is paying the bill? Us, people who lead normal lives and work hard for our money, we pay taxes which are used to keep these people alive... now tell me that is fair?
Take for example the Australians involved in all the recent drug cases in Bali... the Michelle Corby thing was such a hoo ha in Australia, yet you still hear of silly Aussies who think that they can flout the law?
I do agree, we cannot change our laws to suit another contry, if we give in here, then what becomes of our justice system? It is all about our sovereignity.
By showing liency towards these drug mules, then we are also sending a message to all the drug lords out there that they can exploit to their advantage by cocercing all these "poor" people into doing their dirty work. We are handing power over to them. Think about this. This issue is far more complicatied than just Nguyen.
1) You could say that Ngyuen chose to traffick drugs, but I don't think it is possible to say that he chose his flightplan - the route that landed him up here.
2) What is the point of making these people dead if they would have turned over a new leaf on relase - given the chance by society - and contributed actively to our economy and community? How do you know what he is saying is false? Anybody, even the one least likely, can tell the truth? Anyway, in Ngyuen's case, he volunteered to supply info to the Australian police, showing that he was desperate enough for anything to reduce the severity of his sentence. "sob stories" is an ad hominem. To be serious, how much do you think the prisoners' meals and lodging cost compared to your restaurant meal or condo, or even HDB flat? Our prisons are far from USA's "prison hotels"!!!
3) I fail to see the relevance...
4) It is not about changing our laws to suit another country; it's about changing our laws to make them more humane, to suit humanity if u like, in fact it's even about changing our laws to suit outselves: we want to be a gracious society, don't we? Wouldn't this be the greatest test of our level of social grace? There is absolutely no sovereignty at stake here, unless you apply slippery-slope fallacy. The only "sovereignty" that exists is our govt's benighted propaganda. AUS isn't asking us to give up our army or our territory or surrender our education system for them to control; those would be breaches of sovereignty. IMHO, they didn't even ASK us to change our law as in scrap the Death Penalty or anything. In fact, they were making use of a provision in our own law, which our govt has apparently neglected in its "extensive consideration" of the issue.
5) By showing vindictiveness against these drug-mules, we are making the druglords laugh until their sides ache. We are making them think: "Let those 'strong' countries kill off their own or their allies' people whilst we reap brilliant profits from LEGAL business tenders with these blind fools, as well as the Burmese and Afghan governments. Muahahahaha! Long live ourselves!" The issue is far more complicated than Ngyuen. That is why we should have let him cooperate more fully with the Australian government instead of executing him.
the (still abolitionist) pikamaster -
Drugs kill their consumers. If you buy the drugs, and don't consume them, they don't do you any harm.Originally posted by breytonhartge:who says? Drugs kill... and they get a whole section of society into a never ending cycle of debt, trafficking and drugs all over again, we need to break this cycle. FYI, we haven't been breaking any cycle by hitting solely on the supply side. There are still many local youth taking Heroin, Marijuana, Ecstasy, Ice etc. The only thing we ahve been doing is foolishly executing people who could have led us, even if indirectly, to the real druglords. -
pearlie27,Originally posted by pearlie27:my dear adolescent pikamaster
it is impossible to find a society/country where all its people totally agree or disagree in one thing. this is cos societies are made up of human beings and human beings are very complex creatures.
even in Singapore, some anti-death penalty folks also have double standard. They will protest for Ngyuen but not for Took who killed a 8-year old girl.
i think you should know that we don't live in a black and white world.
with your intelligence you should also know the meaning of brainwash.
cheers!
pearlie
I am willing to hear both sides of an issue, but I don't like it when people look down on me. Really don't like it.
Remember, just because you are older doesn't necessarily mean that you know more than I do.
1) I agree with the statement, but I don't get what you're replying to. To the section of my post you quoted, the statement is irrelevant.
2) In Singapore, there are 3 groups of people: Those for the DP at all costs, Those against the DP at all costs (like me) and those against the DP in specific cases because they feel that those cases were judged unfairly. Huang Na was a rather emotional issue for Singaporeans, if you remember. So many people sent letters of condolences and teddy bears and hello kitty dolls etc. to ehr grieving family. Hence, I would admit that Singaporeans wouldn't be able to think clearly about the Death Penalty -> most probably just had the heart for vengeance. So those who protest about Took's conviction (if any) are those who beleive that he was framed. In Ngyuen's case however, there is more scope since Singaporeans don't have (much) personal emotional attachment with him, so it is most likely that those people against his conviction are those most strongly against the DP at any cost.
3) I know that. You don't need to "enlighten" me.
4) I know the meaning of brainwash. I just was seeking your opinion of the word, that's all.
the (sad) pikamaster -
Many people are not easily convinced that our sovereignty is not at stake.
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Hi pikamaster,
I will be all ears to hear what are your views on Anthony Ler case.
Should such a smiling evil-doer deserved to be hanged or be given a second chance in life? -
Life imprisonment without parole.Originally posted by TooFree:Hi pikamaster,
I will be all ears to hear what are your views on Anthony Ler case.
Should such a smiling evil-doer deserved to be hanged or be given a second chance in life?
Let his wife's spirit torment him to insanity. -
THe execution of one mule means nothing to the drug lords. THey can always find another despo to replace him.Originally posted by pikamaster:Drugs kill their consumers. If you buy the drugs, and don't consume them, they don't do you any harm. FYI, we haven't been breaking any cycle by hitting solely on the supply side. There are still many local youth taking Heroin, Marijuana, Ecstasy, Ice etc. The only thing we ahve been doing is foolishly executing people who could have led us, even if indirectly, to the real druglords. -
especially when we are told by those who are not singaporean, those who has not served NS, those who are migrating, those who has no stake in singapore, those who advocate the rights of criminals above the safety of ordinary citizens and those who are naive in believing that what is good in aust or america must be good for us.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Many people are not easily convinced that our sovereignty is not at stake.