Death Penalty Appeal
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Then what if the people telling you all these have done NS, served their time, native-born Singaporeans and truly believe that our legal system needs reform?Will you deride them or listen to them?Originally posted by sgdiehard:especially when we are told by those who are not singaporean, those who has not served NS, those who are migrating, those who has no stake in singapore, those who advocate the rights of criminals above the safety of ordinary citizens and those who are naive in believing that what is good in aust or america must be good for us. -
Criminal Lawyer Subhas Anandan summed it up in his recent interview with ST.
While he agreed that there should be provisions for the death penalty as a deterent, it should be up to the judicial commissioners and judges to use their discretion on a case-by case basis whether or not to push for a life term or the hangman's noose.
It should never be mandatory.
http://www.todayonline.com/articles/83807.asp -
That should be the interim goal.Originally posted by BillyBong:Criminal Lawyer Subhas Anandan summed it up in his recent interview with ST.
While he agreed that there should be provisions for the death penalty as a deterent, it should be up to the judicial commissioners and judges to use their discretion on a case-by case basis whether or not to push for a life term or the hangman's noose.
It should never be mandatory. -
Anandan has made the strongest point with regards to capital punishment. He should be taken seriously, given his stature in legal circles.Originally posted by BillyBong:Criminal Lawyer Subhas Anandan summed it up in his recent interview with ST.
While he agreed that there should be provisions for the death penalty as a deterent, it should be up to the judicial commissioners and judges to use their discretion on a case-by case basis whether or not to push for a life term or the hangman's noose.
It should never be mandatory.
However, the ease of securing a conviction is worrying. Vidya Shanker might never have got a hearing in UK if he had done what he did because the system there probably felt he had no case to answer. Took Leng Hao could well have been set up, because he could have done a Mike McCrea had he really been guilty. -
I'm afraid the death penalty for drug trafficker here make traffickers want to pass thru here because the rewards they get from drug lords are higher.
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So a term of 20 years for a cold-blooded devil who plotted the death of his wife without showing sense of remorse thereafter and even smiled at the judge during the trial deserved a second chance afterall.Originally posted by iveco:Life imprisonment without parole.
Let his wife's spirit torment him to insanity.
You think this is fair, and this is justice. I don't think so.
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I doubt he can survive the 20 years in solitary confinement. He'd probably go crazy within a year and end his life. But in the meantime, he is being tortured left, right and centre.Originally posted by TooFree:So a term of 20 years for a cold-blooded devil who plotted the death of his wife without showing sense of remorse thereafter and even smiled at the judge during the trial deserved a second chance afterall.
You think this is fair, and this is justice. I don't think so. -
Although the death sentence was made mandatory, there are other avenue which a person may escape the hangman's noose either by filing an appeal or by president's clemency.Originally posted by BillyBong:Criminal Lawyer Subhas Anandan summed it up in his recent interview with ST.
While he agreed that there should be provisions for the death penalty as a deterent, it should be up to the judicial commissioners and judges to use their discretion on a case-by case basis whether or not to push for a life term or the hangman's noose.
It should never be mandatory.
http://www.todayonline.com/articles/83807.asp
Both system are already in placed which truly capped to the very minimum the chances of wrong judgement. And for your information, the court of appeal is preside by three high-court judges with CJ as the leading judge.
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To me those who have stake in singapore, prepared to stay put in singapore, good times or bad times, surely carry more weights than those who talk about reform but at the same time are planning to migrate, native born or not is not important. What is important is whether they will be around should any of the reform they talk about does not work well, will they be around to endure or suffer the consequences with us or will they be overseas telling us what other reforms are necessary to correct the reformed.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Then what if the people telling you all these have done NS, served their time, native-born Singaporeans and truly believe that our legal system needs reform?Will you deride them or listen to them?
I also believe that reforms are necessary in singapore, first political, then legal and to some extent social. There are differences in what kind of reform is needed, to what extent should reform be carried, what is the right timing, and whether the majority of the population concur with whatever I or you think.
I believe in those who walk the talk, and those who put money where their mouth is. -
Can you enlighten me on the last successful case of appeal or plea for clemency against the death sentence?Originally posted by TooFree:Although the death sentence was made mandatory, there are other avenue which a person may escape the hangman's noose either by filing an appeal or by president's clemency.
Both system are already in placed which truly capped to the very minimum the chances of wrong judgement. And for your information, the court of appeal is preside by three high-court judges with CJ as the leading judge. -
Do you really need statistics? Does no successful appeal means there is flaw in sentencing? If the case cannot makes it way to the court of appeal, it only means justice has already been served.Originally posted by BillyBong:Can you enlighten me on the last successful case of appeal or plea for clemency against the death sentence? -
That still seems like a location-based discrimination to me.Does the voice of a Singaporean staying abroad count less just because he might be able to see beyond the wool that has been placed on the eyes of the majority by the agenda of one party?Originally posted by sgdiehard:To me those who have stake in singapore, prepared to stay put in singapore, good times or bad times, surely carry more weights than those who talk about reform but at the same time are planning to migrate, native born or not is not important. What is important is whether they will be around should any of the reform they talk about does not work well, will they be around to endure or suffer the consequences with us or will they be overseas telling us what other reforms are necessary to correct the reformed.
I also believe that reforms are necessary in singapore, first political, then legal and to some extent social. There are differences in what kind of reform is needed, to what extent should reform be carried, what is the right timing, and whether the majority of the population concur with whatever I or you think.
I believe in those who walk the talk, and those who put money where their mouth is.
I think we need to come to a common ground. -
The simple fact is that there has not been a single case where this option was used and used successfully.Originally posted by TooFree:Do you really need statistics? Does no successful appeal means there is flaw in sentencing? If the case cannot makes it way to the court of appeal, it only means justice has already been served.
What in your simplistic thinking makes you believe justice has been served so long as the court of appeals upholds the original death sentence?
The book has been thrown, but certainly not justice. -
hmm....in the thread on "Send Ram Tiwary back to Singapore to hang" the abolitionist in expressing how damaging is the knowledge of killing a person on the murder psyche, the following was quoted,Originally posted by iveco:I doubt he can survive the 20 years in solitary confinement. He'd probably go crazy within a year and end his life. But in the meantime, he is being tortured left, right and centre.
"Ophrah Winfrey interviewed prisoners on the Death Row in Florida. All these men had "forgotten" their heinous crimes and the statements they made at court subscribing to their guilt, even claiming to have no knowledge of such events. And some of them had only been incarcerated 2 years ago!"
I can see Anthony Ler smiling all the way. -
What in your complex thinking makes you believe justice has not been served unless court of appeal quashed the original sentence?Originally posted by BillyBong:The simple fact is that there has not been a single case where this option was used and used successfully.
What in your simplistic thinking makes you believe justice has been served so long as the court of appeals upholds the original death sentence?
The book has been thrown, but certainly not justice.
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Arrr...what has the agenda of one party got to do with the majority in Singapore, unless the agenda of the one party is the agenda of the majority in singapore? How do you come to the conclusion that it is the "wool that has been placed on the eyes of the majority" and it is not "the arrogance that covered the minds of a few minority"?Originally posted by LazerLordz:That still seems like a location-based discrimination to me.Does the voice of a Singaporean staying abroad count less just because he might be able to see beyond the wool that has been placed on the eyes of the majority by the agenda of one party?
I think we need to come to a common ground.
If singapore change just for the ideas of a few minority, that is "elitism"; if singapore is forced to change by a few minority, that is "dictatorship", haven't we got enough???
We can argue till cows come home about which system is best, but there is a sense of betrayal to think that when things go wrong, some "fellow singaporean" would be staying abroad instead of fighting through the difficulties with us. I want no part in any partnership where "win we win, lose you lose." Isn't it fair that only those who hold the stake can call the shot? you have no money then you can't bet, isn't it the same rule in all casino, what location discrimination?
There is only one common ground in this forum, the ground for different ideas and opinions to be exchanged, debated and discussed. I have not seen any new arguments on why the protection of the society as a whole should give way to the "human" rights of a few criminals. Are those murderers, drug traffickers "human" when they show no regards for the lives of other human?
May be we can discuss more on how the current police investigation can be made more efficient, like greater use of technologies like the CSI? and on how our judicial and appeal system can be improved. The interim goal of making death sentence non mandatory is certainly a good start but how to make it work? -
The simple fact that the CJ prefers to double the sentence on appeal or worse overturn lift terms to the death penalty because he believes any appeal without resounding evidence is wasting the court's time.Originally posted by TooFree:What in your complex thinking makes you believe justice has not been served unless court of appeal quashed the original sentence? -
Have you heard of Fred West & the "House of Horrors"? What about Dr Harry Shipman and his ODing of lonely old patients with heroin? WHere are these people today? Dead from suicide. The British crown courts gave them life without parole. Within a year or two, they were found hanged in their cells.Originally posted by sgdiehard:hmm....in the thread on "Send Ram Tiwary back to Singapore to hang" the abolitionist in expressing how damaging is the knowledge of killing a person on the murder psyche, the following was quoted,
"Ophrah Winfrey interviewed prisoners on the Death Row in Florida. All these men had "forgotten" their heinous crimes and the statements they made at court subscribing to their guilt, even claiming to have no knowledge of such events. And some of them had only been incarcerated 2 years ago!"
I can see Anthony Ler smiling all the way. -
I second that. We cannot simply bend to the demands and expectations of other countries. The dude did it willfully and in full knowledge of the consequece AND knowing Singapore's harsh laws - our death penalty. He chose to take the risk. But politics is also about the people and so yes we should have a say...Originally posted by SnowFlag:No other country should interfere our law.
If our law says death penalty, it is death penalty. If our law says we should pay the MIW millions of dollar, we have to pay them.
Singaporeans should also not interfere. Because politics should only be handled by the politicians.
Politicians also cannot interfere matters that are not their business unless they wanted to be whipped.
Let the Lees decide on this matter bah. They are geniuses anyway -
There's a point to be said here.Reform of our laws cannot be seen to be due to the exclusive pressure of other nations, it has to be more of an action or motivation that also comes from the citizens of our land who have to live with it.Originally posted by ablazegal:I second that. We cannot simply bend to the demands and expectations of other countries. The dude did it willfully and in full knowledge of the consequece AND knowing Singapore's harsh laws - our death penalty. He chose to take the risk. But politics is also about the people and so yes we should have a say...
educate them and let them make their decision, and still, we cannot deride a chance given to us to enlighten ourselves on the flaws, if any, in our legal system. -
S'pore is in the 1st world country economically.Our law has not imporved to 1st world country yet.Time for S'pore to catch up.
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just take a closer look at the legal reforms and the legal systems of these supposed 1st world countries... it is in utter chaos..Originally posted by PRP:S'pore is in the 1st world country economically.Our law has not imporved to 1st world country yet.Time for S'pore to catch up. -
sgdiehard,Originally posted by sgdiehard:hmm....in the thread on "Send Ram Tiwary back to Singapore to hang" the abolitionist in expressing how damaging is the knowledge of killing a person on the murder psyche, the following was quoted,
"Ophrah Winfrey interviewed prisoners on the Death Row in Florida. All these men had "forgotten" their heinous crimes and the statements they made at court subscribing to their guilt, even claiming to have no knowledge of such events. And some of them had only been incarcerated 2 years ago!"
I can see Anthony Ler smiling all the way.
I have a name, or at least a pseudonym. If you're quoting me, please remember it is me, and not some anonymous "abolitionist".
the (unhappy) pikamaster
P.S.: And refresh my memory as to who Anthony Ler is... don't rmb he was in the Ram Tiwary case??
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uh-huh. I believe that is my point...Originally posted by iveco:THe execution of one mule means nothing to the drug lords. THey can always find another despo to replace him.
Thx for summarizing it up for me, though
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TooFree,Originally posted by TooFree:Hi pikamaster,
I will be all ears to hear what are your views on Anthony Ler case.
Should such a smiling evil-doer deserved to be hanged or be given a second chance in life?
firstly, kindly refer me to the facts of the case; it's so old I think I may have forgotten about it. Secondly, there's nothing with asking the question whether the criminal/murderer should be hung or given a second chance, but it is rather haphazard (sry, can't think of a better word) to denounce him as "smiling evil-doer" immediately, regardless of what our (extremely sensationalist) local press (especially ST) might reveal about the case. Such a denouncement is not just an ad-hominem, it is a pre-coloring of conceptions, which prevents one from arriving at an objective conclusion.
the pikamaster