MIlitary in the Region
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Perhaps another stealth ship..... or the arsernal ships like the DDG the USN is trying to build... ???Originally posted by Shotgun:My analysis is that, there will be further vessels, as well as modifications that will allow an interlinked surface task force to run a singular aegis shield over it.
It is interesting to that RSN is changing their doctrine from a brown water navy to one of a blue water one.... I was surprised when they chose LaFayette instead of the likes of the Israeli Sa'ar 5.
At first, I thought RSN began to model the navy after that of Sweden - Swedish minesweepers and subs... but then come LaFayette - totally threw the opinion out of the window....
Agreed. You made the point well, but RSN hasn't display any serious solution to these threats - or perhaps they think that RSN will never come to the point of having to dealt with Sunburns or the Exocets.
I disagree with the last point that the RSN does not face threats from ASMs. Anti Ship missile technology is perhaps one of the most proliferated technology now. The Chinese have acquired Sunburn missiles, Indonesians have more exocets now just to name a few. Missile threats are very real especially in this particular region.
Singapore Naval doctrine based on RSAF jets doing significant damages to the enemy fleet. Thus, the Exocets armed Super Puma, the Harpoons armed Fokker 50, the Harpoons and Mavericks armed Vipers, etc. The Navy ships are just used for escorts and backup options.
If they are that serious, we would have seen serious consideration in installing point-defence systems like the CIWS and RAMs on MCVs and LST/LPDs. -
Singapore getting a blue water navy?!? More like a green-water one, once we get our frigates. Definitely NOT a blue-water(ocean) capable navy.Originally posted by Joe Black:Agreed. You made the point well, but RSN hasn't display any serious solution to these threats - or perhaps they think that RSN will never come to the point of having to dealt with Sunburns or the Exocets.
Singapore Naval doctrine based on RSAF jets doing significant damages to the enemy fleet. Thus, the Exocets armed Super Puma, the Harpoons armed Fokker 50, the Harpoons and Mavericks armed Vipers, etc. The Navy ships are just used for escorts and backup options.
If they are that serious, we would have seen serious consideration in installing point-defence systems like the CIWS and RAMs on MCVs and LST/LPDs.
Sunburns are not the threat facing our Navy. On paper, its range really looks impressive, but in actual fact, it is not a weapon suited for the littorals, which is the environment we are in. First of all, its impossible, at least not practical, to be used in its max range. Why? cause of targeting problems. The problem of updating the enemy's position is REALLY HARD, which is the main reason why the US navy withdrew their ASM tomahawk variant from service. If even America, with its unrivalled information superiority, faces such tough targeting problems, what else Indonesia etc Another reason is that its not a weapon suitable for littoral warfare, which is why they are relying on the Standard's secondary ASM role. In the littoral region, range is of much less importance due to the limited range the enemy can be detected. In addition to the range of the radar being limited due to Islands blocking the Line of Sight, what can be detected cant be confirmed hostile until they are very close. Imagine our crowded waterways... how do you know which is an enemy ship and which is not? If you can only fire at it when its very close, what's the point of getting a long-ranged missile? Which is why the USN is relying only on the Standard as well as the Harpoon only. Sunburns are also really HUGE missiles intended to take out large vessels, but in the littorals, the main threat comes from smaller corvette sized vessels like ours. So at most, the main missile we will face is the Exocet... nothing bigger than that... -
Singapore getting a blue water navy?!? More like a green-water one, once we get our frigates. Definitely NOT a blue-water(ocean) capable navy.Originally posted by Joe Black:Agreed. You made the point well, but RSN hasn't display any serious solution to these threats - or perhaps they think that RSN will never come to the point of having to dealt with Sunburns or the Exocets.
Singapore Naval doctrine based on RSAF jets doing significant damages to the enemy fleet. Thus, the Exocets armed Super Puma, the Harpoons armed Fokker 50, the Harpoons and Mavericks armed Vipers, etc. The Navy ships are just used for escorts and backup options.
If they are that serious, we would have seen serious consideration in installing point-defence systems like the CIWS and RAMs on MCVs and LST/LPDs.
Sunburns are not the threat facing our Navy. On paper, its range really looks impressive, but in actual fact, it is not a weapon suited for the littorals, which is the environment we are in. First of all, its impossible, at least not practical, to be used in its max range. Why? cause of targeting problems. The problem of updating the enemy's position is REALLY HARD, which is the main reason why the US navy withdrew their ASM tomahawk variant from service. If even America, with its unrivalled information superiority, faces such tough targeting problems, what else Indonesia etc Another reason is that its not a weapon suitable for littoral warfare, which is why they are relying on the Standard's secondary ASM role. In the littoral region, range is of much less importance due to the limited range the enemy can be detected. In addition to the range of the radar being limited due to Islands blocking the Line of Sight, what can be detected cant be confirmed hostile until they are very close. Imagine our crowded waterways... how do you know which is an enemy ship and which is not? If you can only fire at it when its very close, what's the point of getting a long-ranged missile? Which is why the USN is relying only on the Standard as well as the Harpoon only. Sunburns are also really HUGE missiles intended to take out large vessels, but in the littorals, the main threat comes from smaller corvette sized vessels like ours. So at most, the main missile we will face is the Exocet... nothing bigger than that... -
True, using the Sunburn, even on the Lafayette would be massive overkill. But don't forget we are not the only operators of Harpoons in the region. Also, potential sales of Su-30MkMs to Malaysia and indonesia could also include other ASM such as KH-31A Keglers and KH-35 Kryptons. They have a 50km and 130km range respectively. Su-30s can easily arm up to 6 of these missiles.
Not forgetting that certain amounts of our equipment being based overseas, our LSTs would have to brave through hostile waters and airspace to rush them back for operations. Which is why I am suggesting that a multi-component aegis system is being devised for such a mission. It will not be a blue water navy, but one that can safely guarantee passage when friendly air support is not available. -
Yes... nice to have, but has RSN got the money to fund such acquistion (money money money.... need some money...Originally posted by Shotgun:True, using the Sunburn, even on the Lafayette would be massive overkill. But don't forget we are not the only operators of Harpoons in the region. Also, potential sales of Su-30MkMs to Malaysia and indonesia could also include other ASM such as KH-31A Keglers and KH-35 Kryptons. They have a 50km and 130km range respectively. Su-30s can easily arm up to 6 of these missiles.
Not forgetting that certain amounts of our equipment being based overseas, our LSTs would have to brave through hostile waters and airspace to rush them back for operations. Which is why I am suggesting that a multi-component aegis system is being devised for such a mission. It will not be a blue water navy, but one that can safely guarantee passage when friendly air support is not available.
) - furthermore, AEGIS is politically sensitive piece of hardware.... see how the Chinese threaten their neighbour Taiwanese when the Yanks proposed to sell the AEGIS destoryer to them????
Perhaps the Aussie should get the AEGIS destoryers and get them to work with RSN LaFayatte and MCVs in a cooperative engagement environment which the USN is developing now.... hee hee....
dream dream dream.... -
Singapore will definitely have money to fund anything she feels is required.
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With our Hawkeyes, getting AEGIS would be redundant, or at least, not a prudent way of spending our money. What is more important would be getting a good tactical information distribution system such that a composite air-picture can be built and be received by all combatants, surface or air (something like the US Navy's soon to be introduced Cooperative Engagement Capability, now THAT's something to drool about!!)Originally posted by Joe Black:Yes... nice to have, but has RSN got the money to fund such acquistion (money money money.... need some money... ) - furthermore, AEGIS is politically sensitive piece of hardware.... see how the Chinese threaten their neighbour Taiwanese when the Yanks proposed to sell the AEGIS destoryer to them????
Perhaps the Aussie should get the AEGIS destoryers and get them to work with RSN LaFayatte and MCVs in a cooperative engagement environment which the USN is developing now.... hee hee....
dream dream dream.... -
Maybe not now that the recession may last 5 years.... See ST news today....Originally posted by Shotgun:Singapore will definitely have money to fund anything she feels is required. -
Our hawkeyes can cover up to so far. Also, hawkeyes can't guide and engage multiple inbound missiles. Hawkeyes are basically AWACs, they aren't the kind of radar that locks on to targets for interception. Why do you think the USN has hawkeyes and aegis ships together?
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Hey shotgun, actually RSAF Hawkeyes have the ability to use secure links to do mid-course update to the Harpoons fired from the navy ships. Had RSAF gone with the Link-16 update, they could essentially pass secure data to the Vipers. However, RSAF have gone to purchase an Israeli made (was it IAI or Rafael) secure link, and in the process pissed the Americans/Pentagon who gone through great length to get the sales approved in the congress.Originally posted by Shotgun:Our hawkeyes can cover up to so far. Also, hawkeyes can't guide and engage multiple inbound missiles. Hawkeyes are basically AWACs, they aren't the kind of radar that locks on to targets for interception. Why do you think the USN has hawkeyes and aegis ships together?
Anyway, theortically, it is possible to upgrade the Hawkeyes (provide ST and DSO has the source code) to modify the comm system, and with the secure links send radar information to the Vipers and any future Gen 4 fighters. They should be able to send their BVR missiles on their way without having to turn on their radars.
Raptors are specifically built with this technology. In fact, the Raptors are supposed to be fighting in the format where the wingman will be some 20 miles or more behind the leader. The wingman radar will do the scanning and pass target information to the leader who would fire the BVR. The Raptors can also send target informtion sent from AWACS/AEW to their BVR weapons. -
Been on board the CICs of both the AEGIS CGs and DDGs, and they are awesome! 1 AEGIS cruiser can basically do traffic control for both PSA and CAAS of ot was parked in Singapore. The crews of the CG were nice enough to show us some of the "targets" they plotted while I was on board, and they briefed us extensively on the capabilities of the system, and it was impressive enough considering that most of the systems was turned off during my visit. Have to agree though that it is not necessary in Singapore context, as we are mostly defending local sea lanes and not looking for blue water capabilities. Hawkeyes with over-the-horizon targetting capabilities for Harpoons and AEW should be more than enough, esp that the MPAs habe the Harpoon targetting capability themselves.
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Again, let me make myself clear. I am not talking about the air-traffic monitoring feature of the Aegis. But the ability to engage multiple surface to air targets where our aircover is out of reach.
RSAF hawkeyes play a huge part in terms of air-defence, however, they still lack the ability to pin-point multiple tracks to guide surface to air missiles. -
The Hawkeyes can only cover up to so far??? I'm sorry, but by virtue of the Hawkeye's height and the nature of the seas in our region, where land masses are everywhere, the Hawkeye can look MUCH FURTHER than the AEGIS can. AEGIS cant look over the horizon....
As for engaging multiple targets... not so sure we're going to face THAT many targets.... engaing 3~4 at one time would suffice, that I believe our vessels are capable of doing.... -
What I meant by engaging targets, I meant vampires. Inbound missiles that current RSN ship systems are unable to handle. Missiles may fly in amounts and ways that can completely overwhelm RSN's current naval air defense systems.
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I believe some Dutch, German, British and Swedish radars already provided limited multiple engagement capabilities. They haven't reached the muturity as the AEGIS, but I believe they should suffice for RSN requirements... furthermore, AEGIS is built to handle abti-ballistic missiles defence as well, which neither RSN or Singapore as a whole is currently facing... and the AEGIS is also a very very very political sensitive piece of hardware. We don't want the Malaysians (translates to Mahathir) with green eyes accussing Singapore of preparing to wage wars against them rite... hee heeOriginally posted by Shotgun:What I meant by engaging targets, I meant vampires. Inbound missiles that current RSN ship systems are unable to handle. Missiles may fly in amounts and ways that can completely overwhelm RSN's current naval air defense systems. -
Considering that our corvettes will be operating under air-cover, it would be lucky if they managed to get a shot off from the bugs they have. As for exocets launched from their ships.... I really do believe the BARAK missile with the radar system on our corvettes can handle the threat.Originally posted by Shotgun:What I meant by engaging targets, I meant vampires. Inbound missiles that current RSN ship systems are unable to handle. Missiles may fly in amounts and ways that can completely overwhelm RSN's current naval air defense systems. -
I think we have to balance the risk of a mass saturation anti-ship missile attack against the prohibitive cost of getting a weapon system capable of putting up a significant amount of vampires in the air. If we achieve even air superiority in the air, coupled with a early strike against the enemys naval assets, the risk could be reduced to a point where that threat is virtually non-existent.
Just my $0.02; but I do feel that as far as naval capabilities go, the purchase of the frigates + new naval helos, and if we do get more advanced C3 systems for the RSN, it would be enough to face any regional threats that might develop, China notwithstanding... -
I feel that a balance between a slightly downgraded multiple component Aegis battle management system, together with a better C3I, would be able to negate any possible naval threats alone. Thus freeing the RSAF for other more demanding missions such as SEAD.
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one thing i feel necessary to point out for the Sunburn is that it is a Mach 3 capable missile...in terms of the range as faced in littoral waters, that is as good as an instant hit...granted that it is a very big and bulky missile and overkill to hit anything smaller than a frigate...
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Yea, like what I said before, Sunburn would have been a massive overkill. In anycase, most of the guys here feel that our Hawkeyes are sufficient. For me, I just feel it would be better having another ace in the hole.
BTw, the Aegis system was supposedly approved for sales, but according to the page I saw that time, it never commented of the governments ever considered buying them seriously. -
& the whole arm force only consist of 5000 men, including the Gurkas! Geez, just a small force for such a rich countryOriginally posted by Patriotic Tim:Does you guys know that the Royal Brunei Air Force does not have any fighter in its inventory, only helicopters and propellor-driven PC-7 trainers! Anyone know what planes the JSDAF operates? i know nothing about them. -
when RSAF first bought the hawkeye... it was no less sensitive...Originally posted by Joe Black:I believe some Dutch, German, British and Swedish radars already provided limited multiple engagement capabilities. They haven't reached the muturity as the AEGIS, but I believe they should suffice for RSN requirements... furthermore, AEGIS is built to handle abti-ballistic missiles defence as well, which neither RSN or Singapore as a whole is currently facing... and the AEGIS is also a very very very political sensitive piece of hardware. We don't want the Malaysians (translates to Mahathir) with green eyes accussing Singapore of preparing to wage wars against them rite... hee hee
If SAF feels that the purchase of AEGIS will enhance singapore security and deterence value... i doubt they will give a damn about what malaysia thinks... afterall, they could be the potential enemy.. why make it any easier for them??
my feelings says.... its always best to have a back up... if we become too reliant on one platform, one equipment, one doctrine or one man.... we will be in trouble if the enemy found a way to neutralise it...
While hawkeye has served us well in the past... we cannot be dependent on just the hawkeye.... what will we do if the hawkeyes are sabotaged or even shot out of the sky... then wont we be demoralised??
and as far as defense of singapore goes... the govt will spend even if singapore is in depression...... -
Does this hint that Singapore really bought or developed some backup system for the hawkeyes?Originally posted by tripwire:when RSAF first bought the hawkeye... it was no less sensitive...
If SAF feels that the purchase of AEGIS will enhance singapore security and deterence value... i doubt they will give a damn about what malaysia thinks... afterall, they could be the potential enemy.. why make it any easier for them??
my feelings says.... its always best to have a back up... if we become too reliant on one platform, one equipment, one doctrine or one man.... we will be in trouble if the enemy found a way to neutralise it...
While hawkeye has served us well in the past... we cannot be dependent on just the hawkeye.... what will we do if the hawkeyes are sabotaged or even shot out of the sky... then wont we be demoralised??
and as far as defense of singapore goes... the govt will spend even if singapore is in depression...... -
Yap, ground based radar TP-117 3D mobile radars. They also have some other stationary ground based radars.Originally posted by Shotgun:when RSAF first bought the hawkeye... it
Does this hint that Singapore really bought or developed some backup system for the hawkeyes?
As you mean other airborne or seaborne platforms, answers is sort of... that is if you can consider the MPA as some sort of early warnings or the F-16 radars.. -
I doubt the APG-68 has that much range to give anybody early warning. =/