Should Singapore abolish National Service?
-
If I can relocate my family fast enough i might not even show up. I'm sure the ministers', mps', and those in charge of glcs' kids will not show up either. Already escape to their overseas homes.Originally posted by vito_corleone:i bet at least half the reservists will abandon their weapons in the event of war.
-
if malaysian and indonesia will not attack us in the times when there's no NS..Originally posted by Relm:Smart. Firstly, no one can be 100% sure of everything. Nothing would always turn out to be 100% our way. Humans have their own unique set of thoughts.
Firstly, i must highlight that besides our present NS force, there are still people to defend our country. They are doing it for a living. People like the police force and stuff like that. Why had they join the force? That we must look into. MR Goh Kim Swee was the one who proposed the idea of NS. It was becuase Singapore at that time greatly needed a fighting force large enough to defend Singapore for the British announced it's withdrawal plans from Singapore. So, Singapore had only less than 3 years to build it's own army. but how can we ensure a regular flow of army without incurring higher costs was National Service.
And of course, it worked well.
Today, we have people taking up jobs in the military as a living.
So why don't we make the military job more attractive? That's what i meant. Make NS not compulsory. Let young singaporeans volunteer themselves. Chunk in some good benefits.
To answer the question on how sure i am that singapore will not be in chaos. No one can be sure. I believe not even you can say a definite answer. What i can see is that we should take education to a further step. have some students learn the importance of defending the coutnry. If you look at the present syl. , it's way to little. So, if we start from educating the young, plus a better benefit, who knows, we may have a better fighting force, willing to fight for singapore. Better than the present. That's what i see.
octega said that neighbours like malaysia (north) and indonesia (south) may invade singapore during chaos. That's very wrong to say that. Fristly, you may start a potential war between our neighbours and we all know that will be the end of singapore if that happens. We depend on them for lots of stuff like oil and water. But i believe that they have intergity. We should never ever let our personal opinions like that affect our judgement.
So what i'm saying is that you got to think further. What's the point of making NS compulsory? We got some who are so unwilling in the force. We can build a much better force if it is not compulsory.
It also promotes the government's latest policy in giving singaporeans more freedom. So let us all have the freedom to choose if we want to serve
so what's the point of having it?
shouldn't we be like brunei then? -
x2 agree with ya....Originally posted by oxford mushroom:No issue with National Service itself BUT...and it's a big BUT:
Why should we spend 2 and a half years (my time) charging up Pengkang hill when our Malaysian classmates get an invitation to be PR with a letter giving exemption from all forms of national service?
Why should we have to defer our studies for 2 years when these same Malaysians can get ahead of us in University and gain seniority in jobs?
Why are women exempted from all forms of national service when they are talking about gender equality?
Why should we do National Service only to be called whiners? Why should we bother to sacrifice so much when the EDB chairman said he would much prefer to give his scholarships to women and foreigners?
They don't give a damn to what we put up with in NS..the lost opportunities, the deprivations...
For your information, I was enlisted more than 20 years ago...
its just unfair treatment to sgborn citizens... -
I will definitely serve my National Service even if it is not compulsory. Not because I am loyal, but because of what is at stake here for me. While I have the necessary requisites to stay overseas for good, I chose not to. Why be a 2nd class citizen there? For those yapping about scraping NS, maybe you should really consider what is valuble for you here? If family ties, friendship and the people around you in Singapore does not mean a thing to you, then perhaps you may be better off some other countries where you will be happy.Originally posted by av98m:Hands up those who are willing to volunteer for 2 years national service in the SAF with shitty allowances if its not compulsory. anyone? No one?
I have been through my NS in a combat vocation in the 90s. Despite some of the tough training and plenty of the acting by other people in the force, at the end of the day, I have a wonderful experience that cannot be replicated anywhere. -
for those that believe NS is not necessary, maybe this link http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=158736&page=0 can serve as a warning.
personally, conscription is inevitable lar, nobody is going to volunteer to do ns, at least not in the sufficient numbers needed.
it is your duty to do ns, althought at times it feels really stupid and unnecessary. like the unwillingly led by the incompetent for the ungrateful feeling.
the women will not do ns, the gov reserve them for economy liao, bec if the gov want to be fair or save $$$ they can ask them to be nurse, clerk, tech, or other non-combat vocation. -
To say there is no potential war between our neighbours because "they have integrity" is simply not living in the real world; and to think "that will be the end of singapore if that (war) happens" then start your migration plan now. It is always our personal opinions and knowledge that affect our judgement, isn't it? the difference is whether you know or you don't and if you opinion is just a piece of s h i t.
We never depend on our neighbors for oil and will not depend on them for water by 2065 or earlier, will there or not be a possibility of a regional conflict between us and our neighbors? go read about Ex Malindo in the militarynuts forum.
Do we want NS abolished because it is tough and you are afraid to be tekan? NS has been a good part of my life, giving me an experience that I overseas colleagues never had, and this experience is useful even after I left full time NS. Learn to live with ppl (esp many of us fr one child family), learn to work as a team, and nothing test your team spirit better than putting you through a week long exercise. If you mix well with those around you, you will never be tekan, if you don't, no need to wait for sergeant.
Or anybody want to admit that physically you are not capable of handling NS? I hope not.
Do we want NS or reservists abolished because it is a waste of yr time and yr job more important? The fundamental question is, Do you want play your part in defending yr country? if you do, how? if you don't, say so!! DonÂ’t divert and talk about politics or foreign immigrants or thinking that half the reservist will run in time of war or even want to define your homeland before you want to serve. If half the reservists run away, including the PAP, will you stay and fight? And if Singapore is not your homeland, this subject is irrelevant to you.
If you want to compare between a regular and a conscript army, Military Nuts is a better place. -
Currently, there is indeed an oil pipe line between indonesia and singapore.
So it's a fact that we depend on neighbours for water and oil. We may even depend on Indoensia for water via an underground pipeline.
So you say that Malaysia and Indonesia does not have integity. You can't be sure of that. You never will.
Firstly, i did not say that there is no potential war between our neighbours. I was simply answering to a person's comment. The member said that malaysia and indonesia might attack singapore when it is in chaos. Saying that in a forum online is highly dangerous and you will seldom see anyone wanting to voice out something like that which may start a POTENTIAL WAR. That's what i said.
sgdiehard. From that nick i can easily tell that you are so dam influence by others around you. It jsut simply affects your judgement.
Next, many of you are just not thinking out of the box. MANY OF YOU ARE THINKING THAT I'M A SINGAPOREAN. In actual fact, i'm not.
That just shows how easy someone can just blend into your society without your notice.
So that said, i can be anything that you can expect or anything that you can't expect. I am here to collect evidence. Evidence for what, you need not know for what you guys have said is good evidence for now.
So saying that singapore is not my homeland which is true, and that the subject is irrelevant to me is very stupid. Absurd.
Everything around the world concerns us.
All of the posts tells me that singaporeans just don't read carefully. They do not think out of the box of all posibilities. They make judgements without much thought.
My job, is to collect evidence.
And let me just say that i have broke no law of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights to say whatever that is above -
Actually there's no need for a big-scale human defence force. But because politicians/citizens can make silly mistakes with stupid remarks about other countries (kaypoh) and incur people's wrath who could protest aggressively and be a potential problem for our politicians, they (politicians) thought it best to devise a NS defence plan to deal with those situations.
So is that the right thing to do/have? What's the right thing to have/do?
Knowing some politicians in the region do make silly remarks often and easily incur the wrath of people (like China-Taiwan), I think such places are not
"safe" to be in.
The place I want to be in is a place where politicians/people (in and around) don't poke their noses in other affairs. They make peace with everyone, not war.
They're really good neighbours (like NZ
So perhaps the question should be: do we have "silly" politicians/citizens within our ranks and what are we really doing about it? He/she/they could be our greatest enemy/s!!
And imo, having a huge human defence force doesn't deter enraged people from attacking us - they'll just find other ways than confront head on with our forces.
-
Strongly agree.
I believe that terrorists are having a much smaller scale 'army' than the US but they managed to destroy the WTC and kill the many innocent lifes. So it does not matter how big your army strength is but the experience is what matters. The careful planning is what matters. There are of course more to add on.
So are singapore's NS men 100% willing to fight for their country? Will they run away? That, i don't think anyone can be sure of. And since no one can be sure, it's way to dangerous. That's why, we should make NS a volunteer thingy , chunk in some good benefits and that's the best army we will have. They volunteer for they want to defend. They have something which they call home and they will not run in times of chaos.
It would be a much better force. Yes, the total strength woul;d decreases but what is equipped with this new force is the willingness to fight for their country. And it's not based on the government forcing them but their will power is the one that drives them.
I believe that they can be equal or better than the present NS men.
Today in present society, a large army that is forced to be on duty does little but will power immuned in them does wonders -
Numbers may not win battle but it do deter war.
What is the projected strength needed to carry out military operations should be the key to whether National Service should be make compulsory or voluntary. -
What! Abolish NS and allow our neighbours to threaten us?!
-
Firstly, i did not say that there is no potential war between our neighbours. I was simply answering to a person's comment. The member said that malaysia and indonesia might attack singapore when it is in chaos. Saying that in a forum online is highly dangerous and you will seldom see anyone wanting to voice out something like that which may start a POTENTIAL WAR. That's what i said.Originally posted by Relm:Currently, there is indeed an oil pipe line between indonesia and singapore.
So it's a fact that we depend on neighbours for water and oil. We may even depend on Indoensia for water via an underground pipeline.
So you say that Malaysia and Indonesia does not have integity. You can't be sure of that. You never will.
Firstly, i did not say that there is no potential war between our neighbours. I was simply answering to a person's comment. The member said that malaysia and indonesia might attack singapore when it is in chaos. Saying that in a forum online is highly dangerous and you will seldom see anyone wanting to voice out something like that which may start a POTENTIAL WAR. That's what i said.
sgdiehard. From that nick i can easily tell that you are so dam influence by others around you. It jsut simply affects your judgement.
Next, many of you are just not thinking out of the box. MANY OF YOU ARE THINKING THAT I'M A SINGAPOREAN. In actual fact, i'm not.
That just shows how easy someone can just blend into your society without your notice.
So that said, i can be anything that you can expect or anything that you can't expect. I am here to collect evidence. Evidence for what, you need not know for what you guys have said is good evidence for now.
So saying that singapore is not my homeland which is true, and that the subject is irrelevant to me is very stupid. Absurd.
Everything around the world concerns us.
All of the posts tells me that singaporeans just don't read carefully. They do not think out of the box of all posibilities. They make judgements without much thought.
My job, is to collect evidence.
And let me just say that i have broke no law of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights to say whatever that is above
Singapore import everything we need and even babies are not enough here. So we depend on our suppliers. But what does it mean? the countries that do business with us will not attack us? that is a stupid assumption.
Hahaha, at least now we know that Singapore is not your homeland and you are not a singaporean, so how is the defence of Singapore relevant to you? doing your academic research here?
And what evidence are you collecting? whether Singaporean will fight a war? in a forum where nobody shows their true identity?
Yes, everything around the world concerns us, but to what extend I need to act is a different matter. We are not so great that we need to respond to everything happened everywhere in the world at anytime.
Singapore is a very cosmopolitan society if you have been here and it is not difficult for anybody speaking English, Chinese, Malays or Tamil to blend into our society. But you certainly hasnÂ’t blended in yet as Singaporeans donÂ’t understand you, not because we donÂ’t read your posts carefully. We made our judgment for our country all the time, not perfect but so far so good.
We are a free country and you donÂ’t need to quote UN declaration to post here, we have read even worse kind of rubbish here. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:Firstly, i did not say that there is no potential war between our neighbours. I was simply answering to a person's comment. The member said that malaysia and indonesia might attack singapore when it is in chaos. Saying that in a forum online is highly dangerous and you will seldom see anyone wanting to voice out something like that which may start a POTENTIAL WAR. That's what i said.
Singapore import everything we need and even babies are not enough here. So we depend on our suppliers. But what does it mean? the countries that do business with us will not attack us? that is a stupid assumption.
Hahaha, at least now we know that Singapore is not your homeland and you are not a singaporean, so how is the defence of Singapore relevant to you? doing your academic research here?
And what evidence are you collecting? whether Singaporean will fight a war? in a forum where nobody shows their true identity?
Yes, everything around the world concerns us, but to what extend I need to act is a different matter. We are not so great that we need to respond to everything happened everywhere in the world at anytime.
Singapore is a very cosmopolitan society if you have been here and it is not difficult for anybody speaking English, Chinese, Malays or Tamil to blend into our society. But you certainly hasnÂ’t blended in yet as Singaporeans donÂ’t understand you, not because we donÂ’t read your posts carefully. We made our judgment for our country all the time, not perfect but so far so good.
We are a free country and you donÂ’t need to quote UN declaration to post here, we have read even worse kind of rubbish here.
sorry, forgot to delete the first para, those are not my words. thanks -
No worry,according to previous posts our neighbours are peacelovers~~Originally posted by TooFree:Numbers may not win battle but it do deter war.
What is the projected strength needed to carry out military operations should be the key to whether National Service should be make compulsory or voluntary.
"The Conquerer is always a lover of peace: he would prefer to take over our country unopposed."
-Karl von Clausewitz -
arbo..they should be content if i bother to do national service with my wife at home in the future..still want soo much..haiz....greedy greedy..
-
Firstly, i did not say that 'countries that do business with us will not attack us'. That, i swear it did never say a word. It's totally wrong to assume.
So you think i'm doing an academic research here? On this god dam forum. Go get some upgrades for your brain. Think further. Do you think this is a right place to research politics? Further more, why should one be doing a research on NS in singapore?
No no no. I'm not doing a research for academic purpose. A fool would only think of that. It's much worse. Got it? It's very complex. That is the thing i'm doing. So let me warn you guys that it's wise to think before you post anything. Evidence can be easily collected directly and indirectly.
I'm not just on the topic of NS. Many of you have actually helped me in some ways on my other topics. ha. many thanks.
So, is it really that easy to blend into singapore? than, do you mean that a terrorist who speak english can easily blend into the society. wow.
And you said singaporeans don't undersatnd me. wow. you are god. you know everything. yeh right. very funny. you don't even know my true identity. that's totally wrong to assume.
Yes. Singapore is a free country. BUT BUT BUT. Singapore has signed several, and i mean lots of agreements with the UN. Including the UDHR. The singapore laws are made according to the UDHR for your information.
Saying that the UN and the UDHR is rubbish shows how rash a desicion you are making. If someone were to make this matter of discrimating the UN stuff as stupid big business, i can tell you that singapore will not survive long. The UN may cut of ties with Singapore. And that means Singapore will no longer have the external protection.
So watch your words. Think before you post. For whatever you say sgdiehard, it's totally rash.
And of course, it shows how little you know about the world around you. It totally a disgrace to have you as a global citizen.
National service. What's the whole point in giving you money?
What's the whole point of you reporting to the camp? The officials will call your name and you take that stupid step forward. It's because of that step that you have just runied everything. They are actually making you 'volunteer' for NS so that no law can actually protect you. They are making it suit the UDHR so that it is not a form of force labour. They are twisting things here and there to make it such that you are the one who volunteer for NS.
Volunteering for NS is the way how singapore runs NS. Few know it. The government is actually making you to have that step forward. That step and the oath, you have a choice to not make or do it. You have that very choice for it's not stated in the enlistment act that you have to do it. You don't need to do it. If you don't do it, you are free.
How to skip NS? Just turn up and report with your letter. And then when it's time for oaths and the very step, don't do them. The letter just states that you have to register for NS. On that very registration thingy, just register with a condition that you don't want to join the force in small text. This registration thingy would be signed by an even higher official and passed. That means he approves you to be free from NS.
' Any person affected by a notice given under section 3(1) who, without lawful excuse, fails to present himself for registration in accordance with the notice shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both. '
So you would not be sent to jail or fined under the above law.
once taken this step, you don't even need to turn up for the oath and stuff like that.
Using the above example, you can just keep NS. Because the government wants you to register yourself meaning you are in actual fact registering youself on your own accord. You have a choice between going to jail or to register. But you CHOSE TO REGISTER instead. That's your choice.
The government wins this point. You lose.
You are given a choice to take the oath or go to jail. You all choose to take the oath. You chose. That's your desicion. It's not compulsory for you to take the oath.
So. Currently. NS IS NOT COMPULSORY. and it is a fact that currently NS IS BASED ON VOLUNTEERING YOUSELF. That's a fact.
Review the enlistment act. -
Originally posted by Relm:
Offences.
Volunteering for NS is the way how singapore runs NS. Few know it. The government is actually making you to have that step forward. That step and the oath, you have a choice to not make or do it. You have that very choice for it's not stated in the enlistment act that you have to do it. You don't need to do it. If you don't do it, you are free.
Section 33 (f) of Enlistment Act.
How to skip NS? Just turn up and report with your letter. And then when it's time for oaths and the very step, don't do them. The letter just states that you have to register for NS. On that very registration thingy, just register with a condition that you don't want to join the force in small text. This registration thingy would be signed by an even higher official and passed. That means he approves you to be free from NS. Section 33 (d) of Enlistment Act.
' Any person affected by a notice given under section 3(1) who, without lawful excuse, fails to present himself for registration in accordance with the notice shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both. '
So you would not be sent to jail or fined under the above law.
once taken this step, you don't even need to turn up for the oath and stuff like that.
Using the above example, you can just keep NS. Because the government wants you to register yourself meaning you are in actual fact registering youself on your own accord. You have a choice between going to jail or to register. But you CHOSE TO REGISTER instead. That's your choice.
The government wins this point. You lose. Section 33 (a) of Enlistment Act.
You are given a choice to take the oath or go to jail. You all choose to take the oath. You chose. That's your desicion. It's not compulsory for you to take the oath.
So. Currently. NS IS NOT COMPULSORY. and it is a fact that currently NS IS BASED ON VOLUNTEERING YOUSELF. That's a fact.
33. Any person within or outside Singapore who —
(a) fails to comply with any order or notice issued under this Act;
(b) fails to fulfil any liability imposed on him under this Act;
(c) fraudulently obtains or attempts to obtain postponement, release, discharge or exemption from any duty under this Act;
(d) does any act with the intention of unlawfully evading service;
(e) gives the proper authority or any person acting on his behalf false or misleading information; or
(f) aids, abets or counsels any other person to act in the manner laid down in paragraph (a), (b), (c), (d) or (e),
shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both. -
If what you've said is true, then a legal NS advisory service open for all parents and boys to seek advice and guidance on NS is going to be big business!!!
-
true, true... but look at how many NSFs are actualli doin combat stuff... many so called combat fit soldiers are doin clerical or support work... their most xiong job are likely their guard duties...actual training can be done in less than a year... the rest of the time is spent rotting, doin admin, maintenance, and guard dutyOriginally posted by nonameguy:You must be joking if you think people are going to voluteer for NS if it is not compulsory. Who the hell would do that, other than a few? Unless you give a HUGE perk (so huge it will be impossible to give) no one is going to volunteer. If we make NS non-compulsory, our SAF is going to lose more than half of our men. And when that happens, Malaysia is going to invade us.
these excludes non-combat fit personnel... -
I have to say this thread is something unlike what we have ever seen.
Worth noting..
-
i'm not saying tt ns is unneccessary, but it seems that we have to much manpower, contrary to popular belief. tt's why ns period has been cut down to 2 years. correct me if i'm wrong
-
Err.. The way you phased it is wrong larr.. although you are thinking in the right path.Originally posted by khk:i'm not saying tt ns is unneccessary, but it seems that we have too much manpower, contrary to popular belief. tt's why ns period has been cut down to 2 years. correct me if i'm wrong
Firstly, in line with the dragon year and transforming our army 3G have made all this possible.
Secondly, the mode of training system have change.
A. Shape Phase (2-year NSF).
B. Strengthen Phase (1st to 4th ICT).
C. Sharpen Phase (5th to 7th ICT).
D. Sustain Phase (8th to 10th ICT). -
Besides, SAF has come along way in learning how to fight, how to train, and what is best for us. We now have established doctrines and have matured command and control system. From there we've come to learn how to economise.Originally posted by TooFree:Err.. The way you phased it is wrong larr.. although you are thinking in the right path.
Firstly, in line with the dragon year and transforming our army 3G have made all this possible.
Secondly, the mode of training system have change.
A. Shape Phase (2-year NSF).
B. Strengthen Phase (1st to 4th ICT).
C. Sharpen Phase (5th to 7th ICT).
D. Sustain Phase (8th to 10th ICT). -
I will go AWOL if they post me to SPF or SCDF. I wanna be an Infantry man.
-
If i'm not wrong, the enlistment act only states the rules after the join the military and what you should do upon receiving the enlistment act. All it's stated is that you have to register. That's just about it. Faliure to comply blah blah blah comes after it all.
I think toofree has mistaken my previous post.
My first para 'Volunteering for NS is the way how singapore runs NS. Few know it. The government is actually making you to have that step forward. That step and the oath, you have a choice to not make or do it. You have that very choice for it's not stated in the enlistment act that you have to do it. You don't need to do it. If you don't do it, you are free.' does not break the law (f) aids, abets or counsels any other person to act in the manner laid down in paragraph (a), (b), (c), (d) or (e),
Firstly, i'm not giving any aids to anyone in this section to skip NS. I'm not counseling anyone for this is not the suitation and palce to counsel someone. does the above sound like i'm counselling someone. Read up the defination of counsel.
Counsel = guidance / advice (i'm not doing that here)
Aid = assist / help (not at all)
abet = assist / support (na)
So this para is a passed clean thing.
My second para as said by toofree that it broke the law d which goes 'How to skip NS? Just turn up and report with your letter. And then when it's time for oaths and the very step, don't do them. The letter just states that you have to register for NS. On that very registration thingy, just register with a condition that you don't want to join the force in small text. This registration thingy would be signed by an even higher official and passed. That means he approves you to be free from NS. '
(d) does any act with the intention of unlawfully evading service;
unlawfully = dishonestly / without permission
evading = escaping
intention = aim / meaning
This act does not break any law in Singapore. So, the above para does not break law d for there is no constitution that does not allow one to write stuff on the registration form and there is no rule that all must take the oath.
lastly, my last para according to toofree has broke law a which my para goes
'So you would not be sent to jail or fined under the above law.
once taken this step, you don't even need to turn up for the oath and stuff like that.
Using the above example, you can just skip NS. Because the government wants you to register yourself meaning you are in actual fact registering youself on your own accord. You have a choice between going to jail or to register. But you CHOSE TO REGISTER instead. That's your choice.
The government wins this point. You lose. '
(a) fails to comply with any order or notice issued under this Act;
From what I understand, the enlistment act only states that you have to turn up to register. It does little of saying that you must turn up for duty for two whole years. it does not even states the must of taking the oath