Is there a free market given all the GLCs in the market?
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long sighted or far sighted, it doesn't matter how you choose to call it. I don't see any point in having foreign companies running Singapore if locals can do it.Originally posted by SnowFlag:Long sighted don't have the same meaning as far-sighted, you know?
Many ah pek also long sighted
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Which part do you think I don't know?Originally posted by Salman:The biggest employers of foreign talent is the private sector, not govt or GLCs. I think the govt has stricter crietria when it comes to employing foreigners. Don't you know?
You use "foreign talent" in the 1st sentence and "foreigners" in your 2nd sentences. Do you use them to mean the same or different things? -
conclusion... this salman guy know nuts about anything... only know how to ask us to prove him wrong... hmm... why dun u prove to mi u know something....
just a very simple test... who really control M1??
SAY!!!!!!! -
I am not the person using the wrong words...Or you mean it correctly?Originally posted by Salman:long sighted or far sighted, it doesn't matter how you choose to call it. I don't see any point in having foreign companies running Singapore if locals can do it.
Is the topic now on whether singapore should be run by foreign companies? -
You mean you prefer foreign companies to thrive on domestic services instead of having local companies do it?
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there are not that many global players. so u're saying that u would prefer having a telstra (owned by australia), Vodaphone or some other company entering?Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):conclusion... this salman guy know nuts about anything... only know how to ask us to prove him wrong... hmm... why dun u prove to mi u know something....
just a very simple test... who really control M1??
SAY!!!!!!! -
currenlty 2 issues.Originally posted by SnowFlag:I am not the person using the wrong words...Or you mean it correctly?
Is the topic now on whether singapore should be run by foreign companies?
1. Shld the GLC enter the private sector? for most of the cases i agree with Salman. but if they are entering sectors like garbage disposal as robert said.. they shld privatised that.
2. this arguement has led to the role that the GLCs play. here there are 2 issues; 1. GLCs are still local ... and they provide jobs... this IMO would be better than having a foreign company that is prepared to leave at anytime. 2. GLCs are needed to start up high investment sectors.. which is a strategy similar to the Taiwan model -
but why is it that people think that everything the govt is doing is wrong? we hvae made so much progress within 40 years. Yes there is room for improvement espcially.. IMO, rights of speech, media, etc. but that doesn't mean everything they do signifies wrong-doing.
I;ve stayed in the states for half a year, i got mugged twice. i have been living in Aussie for 3 years now, i read abt people not receving treatment in the hospital and having not enough beds. S'pore really isn't that bad. -
It is not a case of citizens against the government. The problem with the government is that it is too arrogant. It does not run the country based on certain basic principles as stated in the thread "Problems with Leaders - too much concepts and assumptions"Originally posted by ben1xy:but why is it that people think that everything the govt is doing is wrong? we hvae made so much progress within 40 years. Yes there is room for improvement espcially.. IMO, rights of speech, media, etc. but that doesn't mean everything they do signifies wrong-doing.
I;ve stayed in the states for half a year, i got mugged twice. i have been living in Aussie for 3 years now, i read abt people not receving treatment in the hospital and having not enough beds. S'pore really isn't that bad.
Many policies have been wrong but were carried on or auto-piloted for years as stated by retired senior civil servant Mr. Ngiam Tong Dow in one article in the ST about Spartan versus Athenian system of government. Despite objections by the people against streaming of students and an academic education system that produced so-called scholars to become highly educated unemployed at the expense of broad-based practical education, the government still stubbornly refused to make changes until it is too late. (I have posted to Feedback Unit on this subject since 2001 but they had only lately made some little cosmetic changes)
Other persisted major policy errors were posted on page 11 of thread:"Definition of True Democracy" and "People's Government Performance Benchmark" I do not wish to dwell on these other major errors here as I may be accused of whining again.
The government's performance in the initial years up to 1970s was creditable but after these years, they were heading downhill and have failed to upgrade the economy which is now drifting and unable to reach the next value-adding level.
They are very good in justifying their mistakes from highway collapses to investment fiascos in Souzhou or Micropolis by calling people whining or complaining. They like to compare with lesser countries forgeting that they have claimed themselves to be the world's best leaders.
The government seems to have carried on in many wrong policies irrespective the realization that other Asian Tigers have made progress in key areas like enterpreneurship, and growth of value-adding industries.
If a government does not want to keep up with the time and continues to justify its past 40 years of success, there will be many more problems.
Look at the whole problems affecting the government from perspective and you will realize that we are not anti-government. We are only pro-Singapore enough to know the difference and are objective enough not to be swayed by any occasional sweeteners or our own personal interests or material comforts in particular areas. -
The question is about local companies (non-GLC) n the GLCs, both run by singaporeans.Originally posted by Salman:You mean you prefer foreign companies to thrive on domestic services instead of having local companies do it?
Dun sidetrack -
Please don't change the question. The question is whwther Singtel, M1 and starhub are owned by one company. So what salmon says is not true.Originally posted by ben1xy:there are not that many global players. so u're saying that u would prefer having a telstra (owned by australia), Vodaphone or some other company entering? -
I agree with u on the democracy issue. this is 1 thing that i am not comfortable withOriginally posted by robertteh:Other persisted major policy errors were posted on page 11 of thread:"Definition of True Democracy" and "People's Government Performance Benchmark" I do not wish to dwell on these other major errors here as I may be accused of whining again.
S'pore has reached the medium growth stage. It's not fair to benchmark it with the 60's or 70's. Let's look at Japan for an instance.. at least we haven't reach that point yet. But we r tackling the problem of GLCs right? i need to make my stance clear. i am not against u.. i am juz tackling thei issues from an economic stand pointOriginally posted by robertteh:The government's performance in the initial years up to 1970s was creditable but after these years, they were heading downhill and have failed to upgrade the economy which is now drifting and unable to reach the next value-adding level.
i do not disagree with the first paragraph.Originally posted by robertteh:They are very good in justifying their mistakes from highway collapses to investment fiascos in Souzhou or Micropolis by calling people whining or complaining. They like to compare with lesser countries forgeting that they have claimed themselves to be the world's best leaders.
The government seems to have carried on in many wrong policies irrespective the realization that other Asian Tigers have made progress in key areas like enterpreneurship, and growth of value-adding industries.
lets look at your second paragraph. HK is not doing well.
Korea had 40% of their wealth transferred to foreign hands after the 97 Crisis. Taiwan SOEs are pervasive in the economy. pray tell.. how is S'pore paling in comparison?
hmm.. i think u have misunderstood me. i am not pro or anti government, i am debating over certain issues which i think are unfairly stated. Thats why u dun see me commenting or protecting the government is some of the other threads.Originally posted by robertteh:If a government does not want to keep up with the time and continues to justify its past 40 years of success, there will be many more problems.
Look at the whole problems affecting the government from perspective and you will realize that we are not anti-government. We are only pro-Singapore enough to know the difference and are objective enough not to be swayed by any occasional sweeteners or our own personal interests or material comforts in particular areas. -
that's between Salman and U ma... I am not defending him. What i am saying is that i would prefer having locals run the show in the economic sector. After the last WTO where all the nations made a committment to liberalise banking and telecommunications... many incumbent providers got badly affected. this is my arguement. secondly, Singtel is one of the top 2 telecommunications comapanies in the Asia region.. probably only behind DoMoCo.. so i say that they are doing a credible jobOriginally posted by SnowFlag:Please don't change the question. The question is whwther Singtel, M1 and starhub are owned by one company. So what salmon says is not true. -
Again... i would like to clarify this. While Salman takes things to extremes and is 100% pro government... some others are at the other end of the dichotomy and are smashing the government for everything that they do. That can't be right right? i mean S'pore has built up 4 pillar industries and many governments (i.e Britain and even Vietnam is adopting a policy similar to ours) are copying our economic model to upgrade their economy. Can't we be more objective? Yes the government makes mistakes in some of their economic policies.. but isn't that normal? We must stay united, learn from our mistakes and keep striving to make S'pore a better place.
I myself am working in an Aussie Uni as a researcher, from discussions with other international economists, a lot of them shower S'pore with praises, but sometimes we dun learn to appreciate that. We think that everything they do is wrong.
but is that really the case?
i dunno... it's pretty deflating sometimes. anyway.. i'm not here to make enemies, just here to state my POV.
peace -
Hello ben1xy,
My salute to you for your objective comments. I agree that GLCs do perform certain roles as explained by you earlier and if suitably modified, GLCs can indeed be our trump cards.
I am not anti-government but have only tried to tackle some of their very stubborn fallacies and assumptions behind certain major government policies which have caused slow-downs or loss of competitiveness and entrepreneurship in our economy.
So far the government appears to be still very arrogant and refuses to admit past major policy errors. -
yah i do agree! i cringe at some of their policies from time to time.Originally posted by robertteh:I am not anti-government but have only tried to tackle some of their very stubborn fallacies and assumptions behind certain major government policies which have caused slow-downs or loss of competitiveness and entrepreneurship in our economy.
So far the government appears to be still very arrogant and refuses to admit past major policy errors. -
haha thanks for replying for mi.... this guy just no nothing much.....at least ben1xy know more than him and we are discussing or debating...but for salmon...he's B/Sing...Originally posted by SnowFlag:Please don't change the question. The question is whwther Singtel, M1 and starhub are owned by one company. So what salmon says is not true. -
i dun mind if telstra wan to enter sg market... that is REAL competition, this will show if Singtel is really an WORLD class company...Originally posted by ben1xy:there are not that many global players. so u're saying that u would prefer having a telstra (owned by australia), Vodaphone or some other company entering?
remember not so long ago some MP tell ask not to be afraid of competition from those chinese or asianz scholars? and our job market is actually WORLDWIDE now?? also remember someone complain that we are whiners that dun dare to face this competition........sound familiar?
while u can sidetrack the point and ask if we like foreign company in sg....the main issue here is...... if the market is not big enough for 2... why create another company?? few reason maybe;
1) to create a false imagine that sg is a free market no monopoly one (look we got open competition what..we never control them one)
2) to create more fat cat position lor...(2 CEO 2 CFO)
go think about it... -
Temasak Holding lah... it in the newspaper somewhere in 2003. i always remember it coz i l lose a bet to ang mohs and i hate the feeling of it..Originally posted by Salman:There is Singtel, Starhub, Sunpage and M1. Many other smaller ones coming in.
Where is the monopoly? -
Absolutely true.... i totally agree and understand why but someone is refusing to aknowledge that there is a monopoly by GLC or should i called it Governemnt Officials Related Companies.Originally posted by ben1xy:u wanna see what happened to England'sor India's communication sector the moment they liberalised?
again i would like to stress... protective policies is not a bad thing. if u overly- liberalise, foreign companies come in ... acquire our best companies... and the wealth gets transferred to foreigners! do u want that???
i would like u to think abt Korea's case. They were forced to open up their economy due to IMF's policies. Within 3 years, 40% of the countries wealth got transferred into foreign hands -
Originally posted by robertteh:
The private sector and the GLC's are competiting on level grounds. i have not heard any GLC's won any jobs by stamping their authority that this particular job or project suppose to be theirs.. it is the private sector that has to comes out and out beat the GLCs not not sitting here complaining....
[b]Our GLCs are operating in the domestic sector of the business to take away many business opportunities which are badly needed by our own businesses to survive or be competititve.
then what you expect, everything free.....
In addition, our tax-and-recover government system of running the country is extremely anti-business. Even the MNCs will have to move away from here eventually as well because of higher operating costs due to direct and indirect taxes like double-charges on lands and triple charges on vehicles etc that make their operations uncompetitive.
mainly those MNC who choose to move out of Singapore are mainly the manufacturing sector and that everybody knows why, stop complining about it. i'm sure that you also benefited from the strong currency of Singapore dollars around asia. this also a fundementals of economics. -
thats very true... i have yet to go to places where the people there have not heard of Singapore but except that most they do not know where exactly is it...Originally posted by Salman:The actual strength of Singapore is that we can implement plans quickly w/o too much political correctness. That is one thing that many Singaporeans do not appreciate at all cos they don't know what is happening to countries in North America and Europe. -
yeah... we are only 40 years old and have make a small red dot known worldwide maybe 10 years ago... and my working experience from the west to the east for some 10 years has heard lots prasies for Singapore.Originally posted by ben1xy:but why is it that people think that everything the govt is doing is wrong? we hvae made so much progress within 40 years. Yes there is room for improvement espcially.. IMO, rights of speech, media, etc. but that doesn't mean everything they do signifies wrong-doing.
I;ve stayed in the states for half a year, i got mugged twice. i have been living in Aussie for 3 years now, i read abt people not receving treatment in the hospital and having not enough beds. S'pore really isn't that bad. -
Singtel is doing quite well overseas... they acquired one Thai company, One Indonesian and there's one more... i think it's in the Phillipines and i think all 3 acquisitions remain pretty competitive in their respective markets. though i still seriously think they overpaid for the acquisition of optus.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):i dun mind if telstra wan to enter sg market... that is REAL competition, this will show if Singtel is really an WORLD class company...
my point on this slightly differs. i always thought it's more like a show for the world to see. which i dun disagree with because the telecommunication sector is really important for S'pore's economy and i really hope no foreign competitor will emerge and topple Singtel.. that would be too risky. Speaking of which, Singtel is S'pore's largest corporation. sometimes it's sad when u think abt it. But what really is the root problem? GLCs? or is it us? IMO its the whole meritocracy systemtake makes us so risk adverse. sighzOriginally posted by I-like-flings(m):while u can sidetrack the point and ask if we like foreign company in sg....the main issue here is...... if the market is not big enough for 2... why create another company?? few reason maybe;
1) to create a false imagine that sg is a free market no monopoly one (look we got open competition what..we never control them one)
2) to create more fat cat position lor...(2 CEO 2 CFO) -
adding to soloasylum's point. The high labour cost has resulted in the hollowing of many manufacturing sectors, this is the salient factor on why the government needs GLCs present to help develop the high-value added industries.Originally posted by soloasylum:then what you expect, everything free.....
mainly those MNC who choose to move out of Singapore are mainly the manufacturing sector and that everybody knows why, stop complining about it. i'm sure that you also benefited from the strong currency of Singapore dollars around asia. this also a fundementals of economics.
however, i am still a bit disturbed on Robert's comments abt GLCs getting involved in some small areas of the private sector. dun see a point for that. weird