Originally posted by ben1xy:
my arguement is the same. HK has China to lean on. if not for China they'll be in big trouble.
it hasn't even been 10 years since they were reunited so i would think that the current state of their economic progress is rooted in hard work that stretched even further back. being as resourceful as they're known to be, i won't believe they would be in trouble, with or without China.
a result of their lassez faire aprroach. this is a sweeping statement, but there are many economist that would agree with me. i can provide references to justify my arguement if u need me to.
sweeping perhaps but nonetheless not inappropriate. on the aggregate, they've done better than us albeit slightly. let's not take this away from them, it doesn't add anything to us.
i agree with u. on a side note.. S'pore not that bad right? i've always thought that maybe politically we;re restrictive, but economically we're pretty liberal? correct me if i'm wrong.
well, politically i suppose somewhere between taiwan's chaos and our suffocating rigidity would be ideal ... as for economy, it would be better if they could loosen their grip on cash cows and allow individuals to compete on a more level playing field.
this is what i have been arguing for. constant upgrading
but upgrading is simply the same old formula applied at a higher level. what is required is a fundamental paradigm shift towards creating our own know how rather than depend on investments which have become so hard to come by and so easily lost.
O, definitely! if we r the ownder that will be better. but somehow that isn't happening. is it the govt's fault or ours? i think it's a bit of both. sometimes, i really think we need to look towards ourselves a bit more often.
i feel it is more the govt's fault than ours because they essentially control the entire economy and have all the resources with which to push particular strategies. throughout the years, they never seriously promoted our own technological development, hence our situation now. they set the direction for the country, decide what's taught in schools, what kind of skills to promote, what kind of industries to set up and hence what sort of opportunities individuals are exposed to. in other words, by and large, our choices are bound by the choices of the govt.
there isn't much an individual can do to overcome the limitations of this environment. what resources, opportunites are available to us except those dictated by the govt?
actually, Taiwan and Korea's government intervened heavily. Korea was highly criticised for crony capitalism and relationship lending with the government bestowing low cost capital based on networks. and of coz... when such things happen.. there will be corruption.
O, i think u've got my stance wrong. i said they practise relationship lending and crony capitalism. i didn't say it was wrong . i do not subscribe to the neo-classical view, i feel strongly that for a country to succeed, the govt must play a pervasive role. which is exactly what all the Asian countries have been doing all this while.
i see where you're coming from ... but for the same issue, how do you reconcile "there will be corruption" with "i didn't say it was wrong"? since we ourselves are guilty of the same practices, does that mean we're also guilty of corruption ... that such things happen and it is not wrong?
my area of research is actually focusing on China's development. i can assure u that the people there face a much tougher business environment than S'poreans, but speaking with some of the more successsful entrepreneurs, what struck me was they knew the govt will not help them, but still persevered anyway. maybe we should learn?
i can understand the frustrations of doing business in a country full of red tapes. what i cannot understand are prohibitions and limitations in a country that is supposedly incorruptible and squeaky clean.
Originally posted by diggo:
Like to join in.... if u dun mind.
However, there are strong internal Co. that are expanding agressively into China. For example, TSMC, UMC all have wafer fabs plant in China already. There are about 2m taiwanese working in China itself as well. IMHO, basically they are taking advantage of the situation to expand into low cost country. SGP do not have such Coporation around.
sure diggo, you're most welcomed. that's the difference i see between taiwan and us. they own their own technologies and can even invest in another country. we also have wafer fabs but our fabs are owned by foreign firms. we're just working for them, not making money for ourselves ...
yup. if S'pore can succeed in this respect, we'll be in a much better position.Originally posted by snow leopard:sure diggo, you're most welcomed. that's the difference i see between taiwan and us. they own their own technologies and can even invest in another country. we also have wafer fabs but our fabs are owned by foreign firms. we're just working for them, not making money for ourselves ...
If we do not publish or make them accessible to certain group of citizens for the purpose of accountability or good corporate governance, I am afraid the end result will be worse :-Originally posted by lionnoisy:The best is to publish all a/c.Yes.
But it will put Sg assests in a dangerous positions.Internationl or even local
big speculators will amush Sg dollars and other finance markets.
This is similiar to we wont tell people how much guns we have.
How much assests we have?US$100 to 200 billions,90% is cash convertiable.
Right.If we exposed too much,some will form allied ,say US$10B
to have a big gamble.
We dunt have second chance.We have many kids to feed.
We may tasted life,but they dunt.
Be careful,for the sake of our kids.
Originally posted by robertteh:If we do not publish or make them accessible to certain group of citizens for the purpose of accountability or good corporate governance, I am afraid the end result will be worse :-
(1) Without openness and acccountability, decisions and judgments will be left to the individuals and individuals are liable to self-centredness and malpractices. There will be less well-informed decisions and judgments. There will be ignorance within and without. With greater ignorance, there will be greater opportunities for speculators to want to raid and thrive on ignorance.
yup, it will enhance accountability
(2) When citizens are more informed our investment decision process and how the government invest in surpluses, they will support govenment and Temasek as long as government remain open and above-board in the interest of the state. Well-informed decisions lead to professionalism and ultimately better judgments and benefits to the state. With more informed decisions, there will be stronger financial policies and decisions so that with such strengths, it will be difficult for speculators to thrive on ignorance.
Will citizens really support Temasek? 5 different people will have 5 different views. and i am quite sure if anything goes wrong, they'll juz blame the govt.
(3) If we publish, investment decision process, it does not mean that we are less able at safeguarding against potential raids or speculations. If we do not publish investment decision process it does not follow that we are better at safeguarding our currency against potential speculators within or without. They are other problems which will cause greater risks to speculations e.g. poor investment decision processes and greater ignorance caused by lack of disclosures and lack of accountability. At the end it is only an assumptio that without disclosure there will be greater safeguard as the the reverse, greater risks from other problems like poor decision processes may be the case. There may be other bigger hidden problems and cover-ups leading finally to total loss of confidence and collapse. If Micropolis and CSM can happen anything can happen. They have happened because individuals make all the major decisions without counter-checks with proper accountable and transparent processes.
the way i see it, there are 2 sides of the coin. i would prefer accountability.. i mean the money belongs to the taxpayers. but on the other hand, do i really want other countries to be able to peep into my reserves? personally, i am undecided, and i dun find some of your points that convincing.
(4) If we want better informed decisions, we will need to adopt due dilligence and processes that can be made accessible to panels or persons of integrity but in doing so, we do not necessarily need to reveal everything helpful to the enemies which up to this point are only assumed to be vulnerability. There are many helpful and powerful points in favor of scrutiny.
yup. i definitely agree with this
(5) Assuming that citizens or citizens' panels are able to access the corporate professionalism of Temasek, there will be less opportunities for taking of decisions to benefit the state to ensure there will be no NKF covering up of wrong doings. This will be ultimately the direction we have to take to prevent any international raiders to want to try attacking our economy or make some quick bucks.
actually, if u increase the accessibility, i honestly think it will slow down the whole decision making process. sometimes we need quick decisions. again, i dun think it is as straightforward as the way u make it sound. nonetheless, urs is a valid crticism.
There are many positives for every negative government is assuming. If government cannot invest funds to give benefits to citizens it is about time people are given an opportunity to scrutinise investments and help build a stronger teamwork in realizing overall benefits to all.
i did a study with a proffesor once on the overseas chinese and their competitiveness in SEA. The findings were that entrepreneurs strives in the toughest of environments, where the odds are against them. With their backs to the walls, they r forced to unite and that was what enabled the Chinese in Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia to control their respective economies despite being the minority. And one aspect which i agree with Salman is that S'poreans like to take the easy route.