Ng made the scapegoat for Nicol collapse
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I just think that the whole chain of logic is not right.. esp hw it wants to boil down to say the minister is at fault.. if by that same logic, then we can also argue since there are criminals, the minister for home affairs/ minister for law are not doing their job properly.. pple lose their lives over murder and accidents, then if everything that happen, the blame is conveniently pinned on the minister in charge.. then wat's the law for?
so the murderer who is sent to the gallows.. who is he a scapegoat of?
the rapist that gets sentenced to caning.. who is he a scapegoat of?
i hope you see what i am getting at here
IF you are saying that there is a lack of accountability throughut the system.. i would to a certain extent support that. my my point here is that "scapegoat" remark.
But do not look at things in such simplistic fashion.. someone has to be accountable and the minister (or even the ruling party) cannot always be that favourite and convenient whipping boy for everything that goes wrong in this country. -
Accidents do happen. When there are pure accidents that cannot be prevented such accidents are excusable and due care and preventions can be taken as normal. This much is easy to understand. There is no quarrel with such simple fact.Originally posted by Ecxentrique:I just think that the whole chain of logic is not right.. esp hw it wants to boil down to say the minister is at fault.. if by that same logic, then we can also argue since there are criminals, the minister for home affairs/ minister for law are not doing their job properly.. pple lose their lives over murder and accidents, then if everything that happen, the blame is conveniently pinned on the minister in charge.. then wat's the law for?
so the murderer who is sent to the gallows.. who is he a scapegoat of?
the rapist that gets sentenced to caning.. who is he a scapegoat of?
i hope you see what i am getting at here
IF you are saying that there is a lack of accountability throughut the system.. i would to a certain extent support that. my my point here is that "scapegoat" remark.
But do not look at things in such simplistic fashion.. someone has to be accountable and the minister (or even the ruling party) cannot always be that favourite and convenient whipping boy for everything that goes wrong in this country.
However, when there is a serious accident causing loss of lives or destruction of property, there will be outcry and concern. Citizens are entitled to express their concern and ask for inquiry into loss of lives and public safety.
In the event of Hotel New World, this is one case where lives were lost and public inquiry was held with solemn promises by the ministers to make good with measures to prevent similar occurrence.
Is that very difficult for the minister to understand that when there is another major accident of the same nature, the public will naturally be outraged and concerned.
The question that will be asked will include whether the past experience with Hotel New World collapse has been learned and if so whether all the public safety over building structural design is now adequately addressed.
If the minister takes it too lightly, there will be repeat of the same accidents. What do you say? Is there any over-simplification in asking for accountability and transparency and good corrporate governance arising out of Nicol accident from our world-class minister. If we are not fond of accountability or transparency because pride in man is very strong and it will be too demeaning, how about break the iron rice bowl once and show that new leadership is different and proferssional and will serve the people at large and not to cover up the minister's major shortcoming and mistake. -
the age old demand vs supply principles of economics..Originally posted by SnowFlag:What are the factors that lead to the above scenario?
look at how much singapore has got to build.. all the hdb houses now oversupply cant sell out.. roads are running everywhere.. u can then now for the the viaduct or tunnels..
too many competitors, too many suppliers, they will lower their price. but sometimes too excessive and ridiculously low prices that lead to them brink of bankruptcy either that or they cut corners on safety measures..
this will go on.. there can only be so much that someone can check on the drawings and calculations. hw to keep an eye on all corners of the worksite and make sure that everythng gets done according to the drawings -
pure accidents = cannot be prevented?Originally posted by robertteh:Accidents do happen. When there are pure accidents that cannot be prevented such accidents are excusable and due care and preventions can be taken as normal. This much is easy to understand. There is no quarrel with such simple fact.
However, when there is a serious accident causing loss of lives or destruction of property, there will be outcry and concern. Citizens are entitled to express their concern and ask for inquiry into loss of lives and public safety.
In the event of Hotel New World, this is one case where lives were lost and public inquiry was held with solemn promises by the ministers to make good with measures to prevent similar occurrence.
Is that very difficult for the minister to understand that when there is another major accident of the same nature, the public will naturally be outraged and concerned.
The question that will be asked will include whether the past experience with Hotel New World collapse has been learned and if so whether all the public safety over building structural design is now adequately addressed.
If the minister takes it too lightly, there will be repeat of the same accidents. What do you say? Is there any over-simplification in asking for accountability and transparency and good corrporate governance arising out of Nicol accident from our world-class minister. If we are not fond of accountability or transparency because pride in man is very strong and it will be too demeaning, how about break the iron rice bowl once and show that new leadership is different and proferssional and will serve the people at large and not to cover up the minister's major shortcoming and mistake.
if that being so then the whole meaning of accident is lost already. I would like to see some examples of what you mean by accidents that cannot be prevented.
OK so you want the minister to be accountable.. do you know for a fact that after the accidentm the chief executive of LTA left, and the Director of Projects of LTA also left. Of course, this was not publicised in a big way to link that and yes i concede that they will not concede that their departure is in anyway related to the collapse.
So lets say you managed to get the minister to step down also, would you want the prime minister to do the same since all ministers report to him... he should also be accountable to some extent right? how much justice are you out to seek? and who should really be accountable? ng? projects diretor? LTA chief executive? minister? prime minister? -
It is noticed that you have admitted that the minister should show he is partly responsible and should do something to answer to the many queries whether he has implemented work site and building structural safety measures recommended in the Hotel New World Collapse Inquiry report.Originally posted by Ecxentrique:pure accidents = cannot be prevented?
if that being so then the whole meaning of accident is lost already. I would like to see some examples of what you mean by accidents that cannot be prevented.
OK so you want the minister to be accountable.. do you know for a fact that after the accidentm the chief executive of LTA left, and the Director of Projects of LTA also left. Of course, this was not publicised in a big way to link that and yes i concede that they will not concede that their departure is in anyway related to the collapse.
So lets say you managed to get the minister to step down also, would you want the prime minister to do the same since all ministers report to him... he should also be accountable to some extent right? how much justice are you out to seek? and who should really be accountable? ng? projects diretor? LTA chief executive? minister? prime minister?
If ministers in Singapore can get away from problems of serious nature by simply pushing them to some contractors or subordinates, they are not good ministers.
There has been a long list of problems which the ministers have regularly pushed away to people and someone else as posted in "Leaders should not promise more than what they can deliver" thread.
It is in the context of such frequent denials that people now have the right to question ministers' further attempts in making more and more denials of problems.
The inevitable accidents which cannot be prevented include traffic accidents etc but Nicol Highway collapse could have been prevented if the Hotel New World collapse inquiry's safety recommendations are being followed consistently and with focus. Minister should not rely on accident in this instance to get away from accountability. People has heard the ministers's frequent past attempts in not solving certain problems but explaining them away. That is why he should now be more accountable and not carry on bullxxxing. -
Yeah indeed.Originally posted by Salman:IIn the case of Japan, they have this silly and childish practice of resignations of ministers over some accident caused by somebody below him that is remotely controlled by him. Thats why they are mired in recession for more than a decade.
We certainly aren't stupid enough to follow this childish Japanese model to run our country. The person responsible gets punished. The innocent cannot be made responsible for the fault of others.
This childish behaviour was observed in China too!
Poor Beijing mayor was sacked during the SARS period!
Who knows how much faster (other than 9% p.a.) will China grow if China didn't practise such childish model.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/21/1050777210375.html -
Yours is only half the story.Originally posted by Ecxentrique:the age old demand vs supply principles of economics..
look at how much singapore has got to build.. all the hdb houses now oversupply cant sell out.. roads are running everywhere.. u can then now for the the viaduct or tunnels..
too many competitors, too many suppliers, they will lower their price. but sometimes too excessive and ridiculously low prices that lead to them brink of bankruptcy either that or they cut corners on safety measures..
this will go on.. there can only be so much that someone can check on the drawings and calculations. hw to keep an eye on all corners of the worksite and make sure that everythng gets done according to the drawings
Our gahment is run by ppl with little industry experience, yet they behave like the typical singaporean shoppers, wants things cheap cheap.....except their own pay
Ever find out why the main contractor for the Esplanade went bankrupt?
Why so many HDB contractors went bankrupt?
There is a saying that it is not easy to earn the gahment money....but I see that when our gahment venture overseas, the opposite is true
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In any case of negligence, the buck must stop somewhere, else it becomes a witch hunt.
In most cases, either the most expendable or the most responsible person takes the fall. As in Keppel shipyard, the safety officer took the fall rather than the safety manager.
It's therefore the same for Nicoll Highway collapse. I will be the first to admit that Yeo Cheow Tong has not run a tight ship during his tenure as Transport Minister. And definitely, a better man should be there.
But which is better? Allow him to clean up his own mess or replace him with someone better? Don't forget by replacing him, he gets clean away from the sh i t he created in the first place. -
That is indeed the whole point of this thread, to go on a witch hunt.
Robert isn't interested in solving or preveneting problems at all. -
listen to salman. he has the answer.
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scapegoat...whats new. that do it in army every day...
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Yes indeed, listen to me expose lies and propaganda by people who want to destroy Singapore.Originally posted by dragg:listen to salman. he has the answer. -
salman banzai!! banzai!!!
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Salman! don't talkcock lah........talk so much........Nobody wants your respect!!!Originally posted by Salman:Good for you mister, at least you are more open and honest than Robert Teh, Zulfikar and Chee Soon Juan. -
Originally posted by dragg:salman banzai!! banzai!!! I see, now people give up on him.