CSJ is trash !
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KNN. gang up with outsiders to bash singapore. where's his loyalty to the country?
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since sg dun like him, so y he have to like sg?
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Because he is still a singaporean. Who says he doesnt like singapore? He only dont like the goverment what.Originally posted by FireIce:since sg dun like him, so y he have to like sg? -
Give him Australian citizenship, think he graduated from one of the uni over there. We are open to opposition but he is only a loud speaker and lack substance.
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hey, CSJ is the preferred opposition of PAP. with this kind of opposition around, PAP will rule for more years to come.Originally posted by qooorange:KNN. gang up with outsiders to bash singapore. where's his loyalty to the country?
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CSJ is playing his part to weaken the opposition. With fools like him, who will vote for SDP?
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He has a goal in mind and he is trying to contribute to Singapore, but he is often misunderstood.Originally posted by qooorange:KNN. gang up with outsiders to bash singapore. where's his loyalty to the country?
First thing, it is not so much a case of loyalty. There are many definitions of loyalty and it is very subjective in today's globalized context. Unless you have a case of a North korean escaping to the south, the subject would then be disloyal and executed as a traitor. So, we do not really see 2 sides today. E.g. countries pointing missles right at each other and make known their intentions openly. Most they do is agree to disagree.
while there are disagreements on the rules/regulations or unique practices of different countries, increasingly, ngos and many non profit entities work together to strive for a 'better world'. this group likes to think that the 'borderless world' today means that every issues and individuals in any country are universal and should be treated the same. To some extent, it is a good thing but at the other spectrum, perhaps we have not reached that stage. There could be so many factors that argue against same-ness; like cultural, political, social, economicial context, national pride etc. say, when the US went to war with Iraq, it rallied nations far and wide into accepting the case on so called weapons of mass destructions and the idea of 'universal freedom' for the ordinary Iraqis and they would form a powerful pact. But in other cases that work against their own interests, e.g. kyoto protocol, they would swiftly withdraw even if the benefits were indeed global. So, collaborations with external parties are a complicated relationship and whether the interests/motives and outcomes are honestly made known between those involved during the initial stages up to the completion or decay, may differ.
In the case of Chee, it could be a tactical ploy to awaken Singaporeans. He may think that most singaporeans are at one extreme of not having a voice, and borrowing the other extreme of western freedom, it would then realign the status quo. using the media to its advantage, it would then offer an alternative view of what people outside singapore think is good/bad, acceptable/wrong. well, one would say that such standards are for singaporeans themselves to make, true enough. but very often, ordinary singaporeans do not even have the slightest view of the outside, and have little say in policy matters or just be plain fatalistic, they cannot do much just being cooped up in a tiny hdb nest. So, if a broaded perspective is presented, it could then offer a more balanced approach to making decisions. that seems logical, rather than branding all foreign influences as negative.
But the way he does it as said earlier, is often misunderstood. These could be due to the unpopular way he goes about seeking change. Maybe, if one had a better insight into his personality and previous background and why he does certain things, it would better help explain what he is seeking for.
He may have held rallys and stuck his backside to some ministers getting their 'honorary' doctorates, but that does not mean he is not loyal to Singapore. He is just against the way the country is being run. For example, if an Iraqi is disloyal to Saddam but loyal to the country's people in his fight for reforms; and the general consensus is that a change is good, would this be construed as disloyalty to the despot but loyalty to the country?
Perhaps due to his academic background and blunt personality, he may not have the PR credentials or people quotient as a 'be seen and heard' politician. this is evident in the ways he chased some ministers atop a pickup with blarring speakers 'harassing' them for answers. rather comical, but you could see his convicition.
now it seems like he is focused more on seeking changes in other ways like civil disobedience than pinning on an elected seat or a popular opposition. If we looked at the highly educated and vocal younger generations today, there must be quite a handful whom are unhappy about the current affairs (this happens for every generation, otherwise, there will be stagnation). So, strategically and patiently, he may target more such individuals to join the cause and in that sense, if we view change as a good thing, that is his contribution. In going this path, his contributions will not be immediately apparent or acknowledged and he may even face persecutions and derision, but if his conviction is all that matters and what that he claims for democracy, then all the best. for it is not always that one have to be popular and mainstream to make things or get them done. Thats why, we have the illegal bookies vs IR casinos, or the illegal ahlong vs the big banks, it is just the perception, and on what scale they contribute or affect lives. -
whoa.. u writing thesis huh??
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I don't think CSJ is loyal to Singapore in any way. He simply feels that he has an axe to grind. Not a mature or objective mind.
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Interesting post CosmoKing .... and i must say it's refreshing to see a temperate voice in this forum ....Originally posted by CosmoKing:He has a goal in mind and he is trying to contribute to Singapore, but he is often misunderstood.
First thing, it is not so much a case of loyalty. There are many definitions of loyalty and it is very subjective in today's globalized context. Unless you have a case of a North korean escaping to the south, the subject would then be disloyal and executed as a traitor. So, we do not really see 2 sides today. E.g. countries pointing missles right at each other and make known their intentions openly. Most they do is agree to disagree.
while there are disagreements on the rules/regulations or unique practices of different countries, increasingly, ngos and many non profit entities work together to strive for a 'better world'. this group likes to think that the 'borderless world' today means that every issues and individuals in any country are universal and should be treated the same. To some extent, it is a good thing but at the other spectrum, perhaps we have not reached that stage. There could be so many factors that argue against same-ness; like cultural, political, social, economicial context, national pride etc. say, when the US went to war with Iraq, it rallied nations far and wide into accepting the case on so called weapons of mass destructions and the idea of 'universal freedom' for the ordinary Iraqis and they would form a powerful pact. But in other cases that work against their own interests, e.g. kyoto protocol, they would swiftly withdraw even if the benefits were indeed global. So, collaborations with external parties are a complicated relationship and whether the interests/motives and outcomes are honestly made known between those involved during the initial stages up to the completion or decay, may differ.
In the case of Chee, it could be a tactical ploy to awaken Singaporeans. He may think that most singaporeans are at one extreme of not having a voice, and borrowing the other extreme of western freedom, it would then realign the status quo. using the media to its advantage, it would then offer an alternative view of what people outside singapore think is good/bad, acceptable/wrong. well, one would say that such standards are for singaporeans themselves to make, true enough. but very often, ordinary singaporeans do not even have the slightest view of the outside, and have little say in policy matters or just be plain fatalistic, they cannot do much just being cooped up in a tiny hdb nest. So, if a broaded perspective is presented, it could then offer a more balanced approach to making decisions. that seems logical, rather than branding all foreign influences as negative.
But the way he does it as said earlier, is often misunderstood. These could be due to the unpopular way he goes about seeking change. Maybe, if one had a better insight into his personality and previous background and why he does certain things, it would better help explain what he is seeking for.
He may have held rallys and stuck his backside to some ministers getting their 'honorary' doctorates, but that does not mean he is not loyal to Singapore. He is just against the way the country is being run. For example, if an Iraqi is disloyal to Saddam but loyal to the country's people in his fight for reforms; and the general consensus is that a change is good, would this be construed as disloyalty to the despot but loyalty to the country?
Perhaps due to his academic background and blunt personality, he may not have the PR credentials or people quotient as a 'be seen and heard' politician. this is evident in the ways he chased some ministers atop a pickup with blarring speakers 'harassing' them for answers. rather comical, but you could see his convicition.
now it seems like he is focused more on seeking changes in other ways like civil disobedience than pinning on an elected seat or a popular opposition. If we looked at the highly educated and vocal younger generations today, there must be quite a handful whom are unhappy about the current affairs (this happens for every generation, otherwise, there will be stagnation). So, strategically and patiently, he may target more such individuals to join the cause and in that sense, if we view change as a good thing, that is his contribution. In going this path, his contributions will not be immediately apparent or acknowledged and he may even face persecutions and derision, but if his conviction is all that matters and what that he claims for democracy, then all the best. for it is not always that one have to be popular and mainstream to make things or get them done. Thats why, we have the illegal bookies vs IR casinos, or the illegal ahlong vs the big banks, it is just the perception, and on what scale they contribute or affect lives.
But what Singapore needs, is not more hecklers and whinners and self-styled whistle blowers ... What i really hope to see is more people like Mr Chiam and Mr Low ... people who are willing and able to serve the grassroots in a very personal way, and to provide an alternative (note: not necessarily opposing) voice in parliament ... in the longer run perhaps there might be enough of these people to provide an alternative front, big enough to form a goverment for the people, we'd be talking of true choices then.
Yes, i agree, in this globalized context, loyalty and patriotism no longer mean what it used to, but then again, if we do view ourselves as stakeholders of Singapore, we'd have to accept certain immutable geo-political limitations; there has to be caveats to whatever freedoms that we have .... we're talking in this forum for example ... and some in this forum do posses very strong anti-goverment convictions ... are they dragged away in the middle of the night to face a firing squad ? .... but talk about race for example, and of course you should expect to be hammered .... to encourage foreigners to boycott Singapore companies and Singapore goods, well, that is simply not cricket .... such a move would hurt pockets of thousands of Singaporeans who hold jobs in these very companies wouldn't it ? .... does it do the very Singaporeans he claims he's trying to speak for any good ? ... to me it smacks of hypocrisy, and makes me question his agenda ... to post here what i've said in a previous post: a simple analogy, if your father, or a brother, is a black sheep of the family, doing things the wrong way, hurting the family finances, was drunk all the time etc .... do you call a quiet family conference and get the chap to sort himself out ... or do you broadcast it to the neighbours and strangers in the wet market ? ...
as for the heckling bit ... others may find it amusing, but i don't, having seen the political process of other countries, I am convinced that we must never descend down a path where the political process becomes a circus, the dignity and respect to the process must always be there, if we cheapen and trivialise the process such that it becomes tabloid fair, then expect people to be more apathetic towards politics than they are now ... and we may end up with political leaders who just happen to be the best showman of all ...
Perhaps he is mis-guided ... perhaps he worships some higher and intangible ideals ... but he still won't get my support, for i have enough of whinners and complainers, people who are content to just snipe annonymously from the keyboard, I hope to see more chaps like the two above, not just rabid complainers who high-light issues that I, and everyone else, am already aware of .... -
He is an idot. If he is truely going into "P" for good sake of Singaporean. He will not do such things. He is just a self-centred SOB....
This guy doesnt deserve any respect at all. -
I respect Chee Soon Juan a lot more than Melvyn Tan. CSJ is not trash, Melvyn Tan is. At least CSJ served his NS.
And being anti-singapore government does not equate to being anti-singapore. -
okay ... agreed .... I concede that point ...Originally posted by av98m:I respect Chee Soon Juan a lot more than Melvyn Tan. CSJ is not trash, Melvyn Tan is. At least CSJ served his NS. -
Is there some point in your paragraph?Originally posted by Fatum:for i have enough of whinners and complainers, people who are content to just snipe annonymously from the keyboard, I hope to see more chaps like the two above, not just rabid complainers who high-light issues that I, and everyone else, am already aware of ....
Just remember...you are one of those anonymous people who slob at the keyboard and hide behind a pseudo-name.
Well...maybe not 'rabid'.... -
Melvyn tan does not tear down Singapore overseas.
Both are bad. But CSJ is worst. -
[quote]Originally posted by BillyBong:
Is there some point in your paragraph?
Just remember...you are one of those anonymous people who slob at the keyboard and hide behind a pseudo-name.
Well...maybe not 'rabid'....[/quote
yeah, i guess we're all anonymous snipers here eh ...
my point is as i have written above ... I hope to see more respectable opposition like the two chaps i've mentioned above ... not more 'rabid' clowns who'll just make a mockery of the political process ... they'll just be bait for the incumbent party's propaganda machine after all ... -
I just don't understand why people would want to take that path of a political clown. Why can't they play decent people like Chiam and to an extent Low? Why do they want to worship CSJ and take him as a hero? I guess there is no shortage of dummies in Singapore.
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What quality does he have to be a "hero". run away & scream for a far distance? What kinda hero is this...coward maybe.Originally posted by Salman:I just don't understand why people would want to take that path of a political clown. Why can't they play decent people like Chiam and to an extent Low? Why do they want to worship CSJ and take him as a hero? I guess there is no shortage of dummies in Singapore.
If he truely believes in making it right for Singaporean (not for himself or selfish gains) then come & play by the rules...even if the rules are adverse, ppl will respect him for his determination to fight for what is right even there are no accomplishments.... -
Right on Euphratis man.
Thats the right spirit! I will support a rightreous man in his fight for a better Singapore, not some opportunist with silly ideals who throws mud and try to fool us Singaporeans. -
If you are wise you will know what to believe, what he is trying to do. He have his own agenda...for the good of the people??? Read between the lines on what he said to ABC news and other publications.
Once I was chatting with my overseas friends and they told me that in their countries, there are a lot of people like CSJ, they are loud speaker, they can compliant but if look deeper, you will know whether this guy is for real.
Look at Mr Chiam, why he have survive and well like by so many people? Even SM prasie him for his contribution. If you are really doing good, people will know.
My advise is do not take chance on such a candidate or you will live to regret for the next 4 years. My HK friend had told me that they have made a big mistake to vote for the infamous "Long hair" politician as they want a voice in the government. What they get is a joker and disgrace for the Hong Kong people. He is a loud speaker, speak without using brain and YES..he always visit brothel.
Opposition is important to Singapore but at least choose a good one, Mr Chaim and worker party are much better choice. -
I know different ppl have different view of life, death & what Singapore should or should not do. That is all part of being different, being human. Not clone or some school of Tuna swims in the ocean.
So as long as he is for real. He/she has his or her real ideas of how to better Singapore, I believe that is a good guy. I dont believe that as Opp, you oppose to every single things that garment are doing for the sake of being "Opp".
I would respect a person opp or no opp, who thinks logically. There will be times when even opp stand in one with the garment. like at some example recently in UK & US on terroisum & etc. There are some issue when we can see eye to eye and agree for the benefit of Singapore.
It is not about the party. CSJ is not mature to be a hero...more or a zero. He cannot win the hearts of Singapore by doing so. No matter the likes or dislike of PAP, Singaporean will defend the name of Singapore. So by insulting Singapore, you are actually not insulting Papaya but insulting & bring shame to the majority of those who cared for Singapore. THE PEOPLE. -
There are times when the antics of Fugue remind me of CSJ. No kidding.
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The more he stays away from bread and butter issues, the lower his popularity among Singaporeans
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This protege from Chiam is like a mad dog. No wonder he bit the hand that fed him and threw Chiam out of his party. What is he compared to Gandhi? Gandhi to the Indian people is a God, CSJ to Singaporean is a mad Dog.
I think his struggles had made him deranged? Just when i thought he cleverly pulled off the 4 people protest march, he shot himself in the foot by opening his big mouth. I always think he is a PAP mole, planted by PAP to make the opposition look bad! -
Originally posted by ObviousMan:This protege from Chiam is like a mad dog. No wonder he bit the hand that fed him and threw Chiam out of his party. What is he compared to Gandhi? Gandhi to the Indian people is a God, CSJ to Singaporean is a mad Dog.
I think his struggles had made him deranged? Just when i thought he cleverly pulled off the 4 people protest march, he shot himself in the foot by opening his big mouth. I always think he is a PAP mole, planted by PAP to make the opposition look bad! 
hmm.