Many methods in civil service to reward themselves.
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The meaning of fair remuneration and bonus has lost its meaning nowadays because of many years of wrongful assumptions that civil servants are not attracting talents. So they kept pushing for upgrading of their structures and use such and many methods in pushing up their own wages.
Just study the past civil servants' salary increments and bonuses the picture will become very clear. In addition to benchmarking erroneously that businesses are doing well using the GDP which is unrelated to civil service, leaders employ all kinds of internal post renaming and upgrading structure using public monies to reward their own incumbents not open to public applications.
They just keep pushing every one to get more pays: e.g. a clerk or administration assistant can be upgraded to many positions with titles like senior and executives. Technical officer can be upgraded without outside competitions or applications being allowedx to senior technical, IPO, etc. A graduate or professional can go up many tiers e.g. Executive, Senior, Principal, Senior Principal, Deputy Director, Dy CEO, CEO) to jack up public sector wage costs.
With such upgrading and renaming which outdo all the practices in private sector, our costs of living and doing business keep going up. The moment they outsource, citizens are going to save a lot by as much as 70%. Just compare what government is paying the contracted outsourced costs with their own direct costs.
However there is nothing being done to outsource the senior positions so the costs of civil service remain very high. The policy to welcome FT or outsourcing only applies to lower grade staff and workers because our leaders think that only the workers are not competitive. They forgot to look at themselves. It is about time they compare the costs of employing them with the costs of outsourcing the leaders, senior executives and principals and senior principals. Outsourced firms will simply laugh all the way to the bank by employing simple staff without all such outlandish upgraded names to save costs and make profits if they enjoy the same budget allocation by the government. -
You seems out of touch with the worldOriginally posted by robertteh:Outsourced firms will simply laugh all the way to the bank by employing simple staff without all such outlandish upgraded names to save costs and make profits if they enjoy the same budget allocation by the government.
With ppl outsourced, they expect the cost saving to be large. So outsourced firms need to be lean to be able to earn from the gahment
Btw, currently jobs that get outsourced dun hv outlandish names and outlandish names doesn't mean more pay. -
you need to reread your Robert's message.Originally posted by SnowFlag:You seems out of touch with the world
With ppl outsourced, they expect the cost saving to be large. So outsourced firms need to be lean to be able to earn from the gahment
Btw, currently jobs that get outsourced dun hv outlandish names and outlandish names doesn't mean more pay.
Outsourced firms = firms that have outsourced some part of their operation works and not firms that take in outsourced operations. -
Originally posted by robertteh:
70% are you sure is that much??
With such upgrading and renaming which outdo all the practices in private sector, our costs of living and doing business keep going up. The moment they outsource, citizens are going to save a lot by as much as 70%. Just compare what government is paying the contracted outsourced costs with their own direct costs. -
i know in certain GLC, security guards are being outsourced. Originally, their pay can be like 1.5k now, its just 1k, plus the fact that now they dun enjoy the benefits of a big company.Originally posted by soloasylum:70% are you sure is that much??
Anyway, I dun totally agree that outsourcing is good. Reason being outsourcing always begins at the bottom. When the bottom people are outsourced, they lost good portion of their income and their ex-employer actually don't save much.
The highest wage earners are from middle management and up. Unfortunately, the middle and top managements are never outsourced.
Imagine how much money the gov and GLc can save if they outsource their top guys. Use the president of singapore as an extreme example. That job can theoretically be outsourced to Bill Clinton for half the price or lower. We are talking about savings of $500k a year. -
I have heard cases whereby scholars just entering the civil service sometimes feel very embarassed at the way their career paths are mapped out for the next 10 to 15 years even before they are judged on their performance.
Some even apologise to their colleagues albeit indirectly since they know they will be taking over certain senior positions in x years and then getting promoted to the next position in another x years over other more longer serving non scholar colleagues. Of course, along the way, their salaries increase astronomically every year regardless of performance since the road upwards has already been planned. -
Many seniors and executives are paid $12,000 - $15,000 per month excluding the bonuses which amount to 3 months plus.Originally posted by soloasylum:70% are you sure is that much??
These same jobs can be easily performed if outsourced by normal executives at less than $4,000 per month. Is the saving 70% or more? -
Not only those you have stated. Today, we read The Straits Times about "NKF's Matilda was 'boss' lieutenant". Working in the public sector, something I find extremely perplexing. There are, indeed, lot of boss' lieutenant around in the public sectors. Power base cultivated through "carrying", seniority-based I guess.Originally posted by robertteh:Many seniors and executives are paid $12,000 - $15,000 per month excluding the bonuses which amount to 3 months plus.
These same jobs can be easily performed if outsourced by normal executives at less than $4,000 per month. Is the saving 70% or more? -
The way to solve the high wage problem among the top and middle civil service is to outsource. It will take time for the leaders to see and understand and accept the problem. Time will tell just like it will take time to realize and finally admit the NKF problem.Originally posted by pat33:Not only those you have stated. Today, we read The Straits Times about "NKF's Matilda was 'boss' lieutenant". Working in the public sector, something I find extremely perplexing. There are, indeed, lot of boss' lieutenant around in the public sectors. Power base cultivated through "carrying", seniority-based I guess. -
People nowaday are selfish NOT selfless. Would you think they want to cut their high salaries/bonuses and put it into a 'hardship fund' and share it with those without jobs or in hardship due to salaries cut?
Look at salaries of ministers and apex grade holders in the c.s.
How big is the GAP? Between those on tops and average salary man?
They don't even dare talk about it!
To borrow a line from the movie ... "Greed Is Good!". -
I heard the bonus for govt sectors was pegged at 0.75 ~ 1 this year? Can anyone confirm this?
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Just compare with the average bonus of 0-1 month paid to the private sector's employees, the average of 1.5 - 2.5 month paid to government ministers and civil servants will be double.Originally posted by BillyBong:I heard the bonus for govt sectors was pegged at 0.75 ~ 1 this year? Can anyone confirm this?
Is it logical to use GDP figure to pay government or civil servants the bonus. -
Also need to look into actual amount pay to different grades within c.s.
Assuming a 2% raise in salary for 2 different c.s. earning S$12,000 and S$1,800 per month respectively. The gap is quite wide.
And newspaper only like to highlight on the percentage increase rather than show numeric.
Can guess why. -
Just to clear everybody knows that outsourcing isn't cheap, depending on what you farm out it can be very expensive to implement and only corporations which huge financial muscle will do it, and they only realise savings incrementally over a long period not immediately.
sometimes there is more to life than just dollar and cents. Sure outsourcing can reduce cost but the effect of that is that you end up selling out some of your faithful employees to some agency and many of these employees could be your most productive workers may not like this sort of arragngement.
for example say PIGHEAD corporation outsourced their helpdesk business manpower requirements to an outsourcing company or HR agency, in effect what has happened is that the bulk of their employees have to join the HR agency or leave. The agency would then supply these same people back to the original company PIGHEAD where they previously worked for at the same pay. The status of these workers maybe previously from permanent now becomes contract staff. As long as there is work the contract staff is safe, if there is a recession and PIGHEAD stops some production or dramatically slashes costs those staff will be axed and since they are on contract there is rarely any benefits.
Once outsourced the impact for PIGHEAD is that they no longer have any obligation to pay their original employees bonuses, insurance, training etc the HR agency takes care of that and bills PIGHEAD accordingly ... And every year to reduce PIGHEAD outsourcing costs they will ask the HR agency to lower their fees, the agency can agree or not agree. If they agree it means the agency earns less so they either for that year pay no increments to their "contract staff" because they earn less or they take on another account say DOGHEAD corporation and leverage by using those same employees manage it.
And the following year maybe PIGHEAD AND DOGHEAD ask the agency to reduce cost, again the agency agrees so no increment again or they get a new account called CATHEAD and again leverage those same employees now working 200% working 2 accounts to now handle a third account. And following year again another account to manage So on so forth, is a slave job. These employees normally leave after a few years because there so much sh!t to handle, when they leave inexperieced people come in are farmed out often immediately to replaced those who left, they are left to fend for themselves OJT as a result production can drop.
Outsourcing is a dirty word. The people who lose out the most often are those at the bottom of the food chain. The top guys never lose anything. Be very careful what you wish for.
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Oh yes one last thing, the companies will keep asking for fees to be lowered. The more fees are lowered the more companies save overtime. There will come a time where the HR agency will feel they just cannot lower fees anymore. They can stop whereby all the staff will be axed and the companies will find another agency who can do it.
Or the agency can open another office in india, china, thailand or even malaysia and source cheaper manpower there and may get equally or similiar calibre workers then internally farm the work here to there thereby taking advantage of the currency exchange and increase bottomline. Those who lose their jobs to cheaper overseas workers have to scramble for whatever leftover scraps locally maybe even at lower pay or be prepare to get axed.
So now you know how jobs move geographically and how good outsourcing really is. -
Robert, Robert, Robert. When outsourcing is done(and in fact its being looked at very seriously now, and even implemented in some departments already), who do you think gets the axe first? Top and senior management will always be 100% safe. The axe cuts from the bottom! Those who are paid the least will in fact be the first to go! So outsourcing in this case will not solve the problem but in fact lead to more suffering for the poor. Case in point: it came out some time ago in the papers that the ministry of education is trying to reduce manpower cost by outsourcing the entire admin staff in schools. Now, thse people are not exactly well paid. One general office with an admin manager and support staff, say, totalling about 10 persons will at most equal the pay of maybe 3 to 5 teachers, assuming the teachers are earning between 3 to 6k a month!Originally posted by robertteh:The way to solve the high wage problem among the top and middle civil service is to outsource. It will take time for the leaders to see and understand and accept the problem. Time will tell just like it will take time to realize and finally admit the NKF problem. -
As always, an idea may be good but implementation poor. Then the blame should not be put on idea but implementation!!Originally posted by av98m:Robert, Robert, Robert. When outsourcing is done(and in fact its being looked at very seriously now, and even implemented in some departments already), who do you think gets the axe first? Top and senior management will always be 100% safe. The axe cuts from the bottom! Those who are paid the least will in fact be the first to go! So outsourcing in this case will not solve the problem but in fact lead to more suffering for the poor. Case in point: it came out some time ago in the papers that the ministry of education is trying to reduce manpower cost by outsourcing the entire admin staff in schools. Now, thse people are not exactly well paid. One general office with an admin manager and support staff, say, totalling about 10 persons will at most equal the pay of maybe 3 to 5 teachers, assuming the teachers are earning between 3 to 6k a month!
Meritocracy in the wider sense is good but the way it has been implemented produces elitism which emphasises on academic attainments at the expense of practical knowledge application and innovations. Now we are short of people good in practical knowledge application with abilities to go into business start-ups. We are producing a nation of educated unemployed!!!
Outsourcing to me is good because that is the way to level the employment opportunities between the poorly paid private sector and the over-paid public sector.
But in implementation, there will be outsourcing only of lower paid jobs and not the richly padded ones from senior to pricipal super-elites. Many of these super-elites are over-paid by a few times as compared with the private sector. Once outsourced, the people will benefit from many more jobs being gnerated. At the end, people will benefit because the real indispensable workers will be re-employed and the free-floats of super-elites may have to equip themselves with practical knowledge and accept something more realistic to do. -
I don't understand why people cannot be rewarded.
Must everyone be equally miserable? -
you still not getting it. The top people who are highly paid and in charge will never ever agree to outsource their own jobs. They will jealously guard it. They will outsource YOUR job to the cheaper and equally efficient worker then claim the credit for lowering manpower costs and getting the great savings from sacrificing YOU.Originally posted by robertteh:Outsourcing to me is good because that is the way to level the employment opportunities between the poorly paid private sector and the over-paid public sector.
Ask your father to be your son and tell him that you will be his father henceforth u think he will agree?
Once you move to outsourcing it will open a whole new paradigm and it will forever be a NO WAY OUT situation whereby the whole thing will be abt lowering of fees and improving the bottomline every year and the jobs will always be given to the cheapest and efficient multi-tasking worker. NO WAY OUT. -
I can understand cleaning and admin services, but is it possible to outsource top management jobs?
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I agree.. A MNC company pay me $1200 monthly to do the job of a QA engineer.Originally posted by KumSioJui:you still not getting it. The top people who are highly paid and in charge will never ever agree to outsource their own jobs. They will jealously guard it. They will outsource YOUR job to the cheaper and equally efficient worker then claim the credit for lowering manpower costs and getting the great savings from sacrificing YOU.
Ask your father to be your son and tell him that you will be his father henceforth u think he will agree?
Once you move to outsourcing it will open a whole new paradigm and it will forever be a NO WAY OUT situation whereby the whole thing will be abt lowering of fees and improving the bottomline every year and the jobs will always be given to the cheapest and efficient multi-tasking worker. NO WAY OUT. -
Exactly! And they will get more bonuses for helping the company to "cut costs" That's why the current trend is that CEO/Senior management pay and other ranks pay is moving in opposite directions!Originally posted by KumSioJui:you still not getting it. The top people who are highly paid and in charge will never ever agree to outsource their own jobs. They will jealously guard it. They will outsource YOUR job to the cheaper and equally efficient worker then claim the credit for lowering manpower costs and getting the great savings from sacrificing YOU.