Is our economy really recovering?
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flat for everyone except the small group of elites and that is not fair.Originally posted by Salman:Singapore has the second flatest income distribution the the world behind Japan. Is it a bad thing or what?
Did you give anything to the homeless at all? How much? Do you really care? Nope, you don't.
if everyone else is flattened out already surely you ought to be asking the elites these questions first, ought you not? -
maybe u can help them to lobby for it by standing outside MOF with a placard. I am sure they won't activate the riot squad this timeOriginally posted by Salman:So in other words, we are having an economic boom. Good for Singapore and thanks to the govt. They deserve a pay increase, its a pity that the deep pay cut they took wasn't even fully restored.
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You see. When faced with reality, Snow leopard and snowflag turns bigot. So much for all these ideologues that won't know how to reason.
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bullshit ... show me exactly where and how ... you sure you understand what is being said?Originally posted by Salman:You see. When faced with reality, Snow leopard and snowflag turns bigot. So much for all these ideologues that won't know how to reason. -
Salman, where do you get that idea from?Originally posted by Salman:Singapore has the second flatest income distribution the the world behind Japan. Is it a bad thing or what?
Please back up your claim that Singapore has the flatest income distribution in the world behind Japan.
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According to wikipedia, Japan ranks second, singapore is a distant 78.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
The above suffers from measurement over different time periods.
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Another set of data that can be used is the Human Development Reports.
Here's the 2005 Human Development Report on GINI -- a measure of income distribution.
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indicators.cfm?x=148&y=1&z=1
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I have sorted the countries by their Human Development Ranking.
Notice that Singapore ranks 25th with GINI of 42.5 while China ranks 85th with GINI of 44.7. Recently we have people lecturing China on rich-poor gap but the fact is we are not much better than China in pecentage terms. China is a large developing country, Singapore is a small developed country. GINI is an inaccurate measurement for large nations simply because of geographical differences within a large country.
According to HDR, the richest 20% in Singapore controls 49% of the total income, meaning that 80% of the population shares 51% of the GDP.
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/countries.cfm?c=SGP
(scroll to note 15)
You know what that means?
It means in Singapore's case, GDP per capita is somewhat misleading.
For the 80% majority, it could very well be half of what is reported!
Is it surprising that almost everybody is saying cost of living in Singapore is high? -
We are talking about income distribution, not GDP you dummy!
According to wikipedia, Japan ranks second, singapore is a distant 78.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
The above suffers from measurement over different time periods.
Do you know how GINI is measured? Do you know that few points mean a world of a difference? Thats why we are 25th and China is way back 85th.
I have sorted the countries by their Human Development Ranking.
Notice that Singapore ranks 25th with GINI of 42.5 while China ranks 85th with GINI of 44.7. Recently we have people lecturing China on rich-poor gap but the fact is we are not much better than China in pecentage terms. China is a large developing country, Singapore is a small developed country. GINI is an inaccurate measurement for large nations simply because of geographical differences within a large country.
Which means who are indeed very flat you dummy! Top 20% holding only 49% for goodness sake. Have you compared us with other countries?
According to HDR, the richest 20% in Singapore controls 49% of the total income, meaning that 80% of the population shares 51% of the GDP.
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/countries.cfm?c=SGP
(scroll to note 15)
You know what that means?
It means in Singapore's case, GDP per capita is somewhat misleading.
For the 80% majority, it could very well be half of what is reported!
Is it surprising that almost everybody is saying cost of living in Singapore is high?
Talk abt cost of living, do you know the cost of living in Europe, US and Japan? Ever visited UK, US and Japan? -
What pay cuts not restored?Originally posted by Salman:So in other words, we are having an economic boom. Good for Singapore and thanks to the govt. They deserve a pay increase, its a pity that the deep pay cut they took wasn't even fully restored.
I know that employer's CPF cuts have not been restored; i know that for some Singaporeans, pay cuts to their salaries are still not restored.
Many are working on temp and contract basis, where got bonuses?
But for one thing i know, that is not the case in the govt.
To jolt your memory:
JUNE 17, 2004
Ministers' salary cuts to be restored in two phases
WITH the economy turning around, the Government will be restoring the cuts to the salaries of ministers and other senior officials from next month.
The Prime Minister's Office (PMO) said on Thursday that the restoration will be done in two steps, just as the cuts had happened twice - the first restoration will come on July 1 and the next, on Jan 1, 2005.
The PMO also announced a revision to the way in which these salaries would be pegged to private-sector salaries. The salaries will now take into account not only the latest private-sector salaries as benchmarks, but also the overall state of the economy.
The monthly salaries of political, statutory and judicial appointment holders, as well as those in the Government's premier administrative service, were first cut in November 2001.
This was amid the economic uncertainty following the Sept 11 terrorist attacks in the US.
Then in July 2003, after the outbreak of the Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (Sars), their salaries were cut again, by another 10 per cent.
These reductions expire on June 30.
The Nov 2001 cut will be restituted on July 1, and the July 2003 one, on Jan 1, 2005.
The PMO noted that the economy was now getting back on track, so the cuts could be restored.
The PMO also explained that when the Government introduced the private-sector benchmarks in 1994, its intention was to adjust public-sector salaries to the benchmark automatically every year in order to keep them competitive.
However, in the past 10 years since then, adjustments were made in only four years. This is because economic conditions have been unstable, and private-sector incomes have been more variable than expected.
So the Government will continue to track the private-sector benchmark annually, and continue to set public-sector salaries that over time match this benchmark.
However, in deciding on salary adjustments each year, it will take into account not just the latest benchmark figures, but also the broader state of the economy.
Notice the innocent last sentence, now govt pay not pegged to economy somemore. When private sector pay is good, govt pay is pegged, when private sector is bad, govt pay is not pegged. So on what basis are the salaries set? Maybe T T Durai thought it was alright to give himself 12 months bonuses because he was miseducated? -
Salman,Originally posted by Salman:We are talking about income distribution, not GDP you dummy!
Do you know how GINI is measured? Do you know that few points mean a world of a difference? Thats why we are 25th and China is way back 85th.
Which means who are indeed very flat you dummy! Top 20% holding only 49% for goodness sake. Have you compared us with other countries?
Talk abt cost of living, do you know the cost of living in Europe, US and Japan? Ever visited UK, US and Japan?
You still have not backed up your claim, where is the proof?
I have given you enough information to refute your claim, and i am open to whatever evidence you can bring up to defend your claim that Singapore has the flatest income distribution behind Japan.
You want to know how GINI is calculated?
Let me help with that also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
Please know the points in red:
Advantages of the Gini coefficient as a measure of inequality
The Gini coefficient's main advantage is that it is a measure of inequality, not a measure of average income or some other variable which is unrepresentative of most of the population, such as gross domestic product.
Gini coefficients can be used to compare income distributions across different population sectors as well as countries, for example the Gini coefficient for urban areas differs from that of rural areas in many countries (though the United States' urban and rural Gini coefficients are nearly identical).
The Gini coefficient is sufficiently simple that it can be compared across countries and be easily interpreted. GDP statistics are often criticised as they do not represent changes for the whole population, the Gini coefficient demonstrates how income has changed for poor and rich. If the Gini coefficient is rising as well as GDP, poverty may not be improving for the vast majority of the population.
The Gini coefficient can be used to indicate how the distribution of income has changed within a country over a period of time, thus it is possible to see if inequality is increasing or decreasing.
The Gini coefficient satisfies four important principles:
Anonymity: it doesnÂ’t matter who the high and low earners are.
Scale independence: the Gini coefficient does not consider the size of the economy, the way it is measured, or whether it is a rich or poor country on average.
Population independence: it does not matter how large the population of the country is.
Transfer principle: if income (less than the difference), is transferred from a rich person to a poor person the resulting distribution is more equal. -
Rather than proving that income distribution is skewed, you actually showed that oncome distribution is very flat in Singapore.
I suggest you read your own materials and stop cutting and pasting selective from articles. -
Again, i ask for evidence to support your claim that income distribution is very flat in Singapore.Originally posted by Salman:Rather than proving that income distribution is skewed, you actually showed that oncome distribution is very flat in Singapore.
I suggest you read your own materials and stop cutting and pasting selective from articles.
Please do not try to avoid this unless your claim is hollow or it is like you say, "from your own materials" which actually means it is just from your personal opinion.
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yu brought the proof yourself sir. don't you know?
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Nice try. But it does not cover up your baseless claim.Originally posted by Salman:yu brought the proof yourself sir. don't you know?
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Thanks to you, your links proved my claim w/o you knowing it.
thanks -
It just goes to show you cannot produce proof and it is just a personal opinion not backed by facts.Originally posted by Salman:Thanks to you, your links proved my claim w/o you knowing it.
thanks
I suspect you don't even understand the issue enough yet try to pass yourself off as an expert. All your talk is fluff.
As they say "Empty vessels make the most noise." -
Mr ObviousMan, you have certainly done your homework and have provided us all with irrefutable evidence of all the bullshiting we're getting from salamander. i really salute you for your diligence and thoroughness. the sad thing is, slimy as a salamander is, it will wriggle through anything you put it through. so thick skinned he can argue on despite being shown in the face how wrong he had been ...Originally posted by ObviousMan:It just goes to show you cannot produce proof and it is just a personal opinion not backed by facts.
I suspect you don't even understand the issue enough yet try to pass yourself off as an expert. All your talk is fluff.
As they say "Empty vessels make the most noise." -
15. Inequality in income or consumption
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Survey Year 1998
Share of income or consumption (%) - Poorest 10% 1.9
Share of income or consumption (%) - Poorest 20% 5.0
Share of income or consumption (%) - Richest 20% 49.0
Share of income or consumption (%) - Richest 10% 32.8
Inequality measures - Ratio of richest 10% to poorest 10% 17.7
Inequality measures - Ratio of richest 20% to poorest 20% 9.7
Inequality measures - Gini index 42.5
All right, i have reviewed my data source -- i erred on the time period only (survey conducted in 199
.
Does not affect the result much, Cut and Pasted the whole facts in your face.
Poorest 10% hold 1.9% of total income, poorest 20% 5%.
Richest 10% hold 32.8%, richest 20% hold 49% of total income.
You call this flat? -- Which part you do not understand, Salman? -
He's gone, let's see if he thick-skinned enough to reply.Originally posted by snow leopard:Mr ObviousMan, you have certainly done your homework and have provided us all with irrefutable evidence of all the bullshiting we're getting from salamander. i really salute you for your diligence and thoroughness. the sad thing is, slimy as a salamander is, it will wriggle through anything you put it through. so thick skinned he can argue on despite being shown in the face how wrong he had been ... -
Originally posted by Salman:
We are talking about income distribution, not GDP you dummy!
we are talking about income distribution you dummy!
Do you know how GINI is measured? Do you know that few points mean a world of a difference? Thats why we are 25th and China is way back 85th.
bullshit. the ranking of 25 refers to our human development index ranking which comprises scores from life expectancy, literacy and per capita GDP. for the ranking of income inequality, we are number 78.
which goes to show we are a rich (25th in human development index) but unfair (78th in income inequality) country ...
Which means who are indeed very flat you dummy! Top 20% holding only 49% for goodness sake. Have you compared us with other countries?
flat my foot, dummy. compared already ... that's why ranked 78th.
Talk abt cost of living, do you know the cost of living in Europe, US and Japan? Ever visited UK, US and Japan?
wriggling your way out salamander? -
nope, ObviousMan has pointed out that the Human Development Report Office supported by the United Nations says that Singapore is ranked 78 in terms when it comes to income inequality.Originally posted by Salman:Rather than proving that income distribution is skewed, you actually showed that oncome distribution is very flat in Singapore.
I suggest you read your own materials and stop cutting and pasting selective from articles.
at least he bothers to present evidence for the benefit of all? you? sprout rubbish and pluck stories from thin air. -
what a bloody idiot you are ...Originally posted by Salman:yu brought the proof yourself sir. don't you know? -
the most shameless idiot i've ever come across, indulging in glory when there is none to bask in ...Originally posted by Salman:Thanks to you, your links proved my claim w/o you knowing it.
thanks -
x 2Originally posted by snow leopard:the most shameless idiot i've ever come across, indulging in glory when there is none to bask in ... -
Hey I tell you what's recovering: my in-grown toe nail!!
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Then, get sg govt to run Indonesia. Let's see how ''good'' they are. You freaking idiot!!!Originally posted by Salman:How bad can we possibly be? Have you seen how many homeless people are there in Seoul, San Francisco, London, etc? I suggest you travel the world and open your eyes, just cross over to Batam, and then come back and tell us that the govt is lousy. -
I have met many Asians who said they wish LKY ran their country.
If you can get the Indos at large to accept LKY, LKY will go over. Can you do that you freak?