Melvyn Tan is leaving Singapore
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well .... it's fine, it's okay by me if you think there's more than one way to serve the nation, and yes, you're right too, there are many ways to serve beyond running around with a rifle .... some peeps are in the police force, some in the SCDF, some peeps are females and need not wear a uniform at all.... but i think the issue here is that there is a deliberate flouting of the law .... some may disagree with me, but I believe most people can agree that NS is a neccessary evil .... if thousands and thousands of boys can put a hold on their careers and their lives for 2 long years .... why can't he ? .... because he's endowed with some rare talents ? ....
if we're to preach about equality and egalitarianism (like what we recite in the pledge), then the law must be applied equally .... whether people agree that NS is a worthwhile institution is quite another matter .... -
Someone within the Govt had a decent idea for once and wanted Melvyn back to help promote our arts and culture, and that Teo Chee Hean has to be keh kiang and go n big mouth and drive him away. If u feel that people dun welcome u, would u stay? Of course not right?Originally posted by dragg:but isnt that what our govt is trying hard to do. filter out the non-talented.
So in general ya the govt wants to filter out the non-talented. Thats why they've driven him away again.
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because not all careers are the same and can be put on hold for a couple of years. In some careers, u miss that opportunity, u'll never, and i mean NEVER, get it again, and thats your entire career down the drain.Originally posted by Fatum:well .... it's fine, it's okay by me if you think there's more than one way to serve the nation, and yes, you're right too, there are many ways to serve beyond running around with a rifle .... some peeps are in the police force, some in the SCDF, some peeps are females and need not wear a uniform at all.... but i think the issue here is that there is a deliberate flouting of the law .... some may disagree with me, but I believe most people can agree that NS is a neccessary evil .... if thousands and thousands of boys can put a hold on their careers and their lives for 2 long years .... why can't he ? .... because he's endowed with some rare talents ? ....
if we're to preach about equality and egalitarianism (like what we recite in the pledge), then the law must be applied equally .... whether people agree that NS is a worthwhile institution is quite another matter ....
Anyways, the law is not always right. The law says its a crime to indulge in oral and anal sex, but that is plain stupid. If they enforced this law vigorously, I bet u half the people in this forums should be in jail already.
So u can't really use the "deliberate" flouting of the law can u? Furthermore the law states that this "crime" is punishable by a fine or jail or both. So he got the fine. The law has spoken also isn't it? So this argument is once again, not valid.
The reason laws can be amended is simply because, just because something is the law, doesn't make it right or wrong. In a country ruled by a dictator, there are many things that are the law too. I bet u didn't know in Iraq, the law was that only members of Saddam's family are allowed to own Ferraris. Makes sense? No. Is it the law? Yes.
Make what u will of that, but arguing that because he was in breach of the law, he should be punished, is not the smartest argument one can use, esp since he did not go unpunished. The law has certain provisions to be lenient depending on each individual case, so that leniency has been exercised. No grounds for complain as far as I can see. -
what do you think the effect would be, if everyone only follows the rules and laws that one likes ? .... and since everyone has different opinions and probably won't like every single law that exist .... what's then ? ... and btw, we're talking about a law that is applied universally to everyone ... not a privilege to a select few masquerading as a law ...Originally posted by HENG@:because not all careers are the same and can be put on hold for a couple of years. In some careers, u miss that opportunity, u'll never, and i mean NEVER, get it again, and thats your entire career down the drain.
Anyways, the law is not always right. The law says its a crime to indulge in oral and anal sex, but that is plain stupid. If they enforced this law vigorously, I bet u half the people in this forums should be in jail already.
So u can't really use the "deliberate" flouting of the law can u? Furthermore the law states that this "crime" is punishable by a fine or jail or both. So he got the fine. The law has spoken also isn't it? So this argument is once again, not valid.
The reason laws can be amended is simply because, just because something is the law, doesn't make it right or wrong. In a country ruled by a dictator, there are many things that are the law too. I bet u didn't know in Iraq, the law was that only members of Saddam's family are allowed to own Ferraris. Makes sense? No. Is it the law? Yes.
Make what u will of that, but arguing that because he was in breach of the law, he should be punished, is not the smartest argument one can use, esp since he did not go unpunished. The law has certain provisions to be lenient depending on each individual case, so that leniency has been exercised. No grounds for complain as far as I can see.
I guess the complaint that people have is this, why were others jailed and some others got away only with a fine ? ... what were the mitigating circumstances then ? ... because he wants to develop his career ? ... sorry ...but i rate his character on the same level as those scholarship bond breakers .... (and, perhaps it's simply because i'm a plebeian who listens to retro and rock on my ipod, but i'm not sure i've heard of him before this case .... was he really that famous to began with ? .... so i'm not sure if his reasons for defaulting on NS holds water ....
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But in what way did Melvyn Tan serve Singapore? He dodged national service, gave up his citizenship and has been tagged as a british citizen ever since! Other than vague references to his having been born in Singapore from what I can see in various articles. His training in music was also almost entirely in the UK. He has certainly served his adopted country very well all these years.
So you're saying that its all right for melvyn tan to be given such a lenient sentence, a $3000 fine(!) and the red carpet treatment just because he's a world renowned musician? While our own people who did not evade national service have been locked up in the detention barracks for far more trivial offences? what does that say about the value of national service in this country? All this in the name of advancing the local arts scene? Something is obviously wrong. Even people who download MP3 files get far heavier penalties. -
well honestly, i think singaporeans like to kick up a big fuss over nothing. There are probably lots of white horses who have gotten away with more, including manslaughter or murder(those of u who know, will know exactly what n who im talking about). But these things don't make the paper so nobody kicks up a big fuss. Just so happens his case made the papers so everyone feel they must make a big hoo ha over his case, which in my opinion, was really quite fairly judged in the courts for once. Why don't u people go make noise over something really worthwhile? Like whitehorses who get away with manslaughter/murder while they're serving their NS?Originally posted by Fatum:what do you think the effect would be, if everyone only follows the rules and laws that one likes ? .... and since everyone has different opinions and probably won't like every single law that exist .... what's then ? ... and btw, we're talking about a law that is applied universally to everyone ... not a privilege to a select few masquerading as a law ...
I guess the complaint that people have is this, why were others jailed and some others got away only with a fine ? ... what were the mitigating circumstances then ? ... because he wants to develop his career ? ... sorry ...but i rate his character on the same level as those scholarship bond breakers .... (and, perhaps it's simply because i'm a plebeian who listens to retro and rock on my ipod, but i'm not sure i've heard of him before this case .... was he really that famous to began with ? .... so i'm not sure if his reasons for defaulting on NS holds water .... ) -
He wants to come back to help build up Singapore's national arts and culture scene too. In any case, I don't think if u want a career in classical style music, u can get any training in singapore. Name me one world renown college or institute of music in singapore. I doubt if u can. 2ndly. He dodged his NS. Of couse he had to end up a resident elsewhere because he didn't want to end up in jail for something he didn't believe in. The only alternative left is to seek out citizenship in other countries. Its all very understandable is it not? I mean, back then, if he didn't face the threat of a jail sentence, no doubt he would have come back, paid a fine and served while he was still young, but AFTER his career as a classical musician has been established.Originally posted by av98m:But in what way did Melvyn Tan serve Singapore? He dodged national service, gave up his citizenship and has been tagged as a british citizen ever since! Other than vague references to his having been born in Singapore from what I can see in various articles. His training in music was also almost entirely in the UK. He has certainly served his adopted country very well all these years.
So you're saying that its all right for melvyn tan to be given such a lenient sentence, a $3000 fine(!) and the red carpet treatment just because he's a world renowned musician? While our own people who did not evade national service have been locked up in the detention barracks for far more trivial offences? what does that say about the value of national service in this country? All this in the name of advancing the local arts scene? Something is obviously wrong. Even people who download MP3 files get far heavier penalties.
Anyways it seems people keep comparing a career in classical music with other careers, which seems very unfair, because u don't get the same constraints, opportunities or lack of, in a more normal and mudane career. Maybe u think its not fair that he had some rare talents, but seriously u people would rather rare talents be wasted or lost? I do get the distinct impression that jealousy or envy plays a huge factor in your feelings here.
Anyways, whats done is done, so he's not welcome, and he's leaving. Seriously, whether YOU think its fair or not, it is STILL singapore's loss. It seems people aren't even willing to allow forgiveness nor allow one to atone for his "crimes" in other ways besides a jail sentence(which is NOT even mandatory) such that it would benefit the nation as a whole. What would going to jail achieve? in your minds, fairness perhaps, but in reality, nothing beneficial. It only got reported because SOMEONE in the media felt it was "unfair" or a deviation from the usual policy, so it wouldn't even be reported if he got a jail sentence, so its USELESS as a deterrance. The reality is, people want a jail sentence for him to fulfill their own hapless sense of "justice" -
thats exactly the point. majority of singaporeans dont need him. what is there to lose? he can remain in UK to continue his successful career.Originally posted by HENG@:He wants to come back to help build up Singapore's national arts and culture scene too. In any case, I don't think if u want a career in classical style music, u can get any training in singapore. Name me one world renown college or institute of music in singapore. I doubt if u can. 2ndly. He dodged his NS. Of couse he had to end up a resident elsewhere because he didn't want to end up in jail for something he didn't believe in. The only alternative left is to seek out citizenship in other countries. Its all very understandable is it not? I mean, back then, if he didn't face the threat of a jail sentence, no doubt he would have come back, paid a fine and served while he was still young, but AFTER his career as a classical musician has been established.
Anyways it seems people keep comparing a career in classical music with other careers, which seems very unfair, because u don't get the same constraints, opportunities or lack of, in a more normal and mudane career. Maybe u think its not fair that he had some rare talents, but seriously u people would rather rare talents be wasted or lost? I do get the distinct impression that jealousy or envy plays a huge factor in your feelings here.
Anyways, whats done is done, so he's not welcome, and he's leaving. Seriously, whether YOU think its fair or not, it is STILL singapore's loss. It seems people aren't even willing to allow forgiveness nor allow one to atone for his "crimes" in other ways besides a jail sentence(which is NOT even mandatory) such that it would benefit the nation as a whole. What would going to jail achieve? in your minds, fairness perhaps, but in reality, nothing beneficial. It only got reported because SOMEONE in the media felt it was "unfair" or a deviation from the usual policy, so it wouldn't even be reported if he got a jail sentence, so its USELESS as a deterrance. The reality is, people want a jail sentence for him to fulfill their own hapless sense of "justice"
everybody is happy. -
Lol. always get a good laugh when i see crap like this.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:yup, 60k is peanuts, 5k is pi sai
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ok... but that is being shortsighted and petty...Originally posted by dragg:thats exactly the point. majority of singaporeans dont need him. what is there to lose? he can remain in UK to continue his successful career.
everybody is happy.
like i said, I believe the Russians call this nekulturny. -
The sun will continue to rise, people will still shit and have sex even after Melvin Tay has left the country.
As for his contributions to our arts scene, in what capacity will he contribute? As a British citizen? How will that benefit us? How is that different from just engaging a foreign musician.
Good riddance that he has left this country. He won't be missed -
The psychological aftermath of our government's intentions has left us in a quagmire.
After all the years of developing 'HUMAN RESOURCE' as Singapore's sole marketable product, the arts and cultural sectors have taken a huge knock. To the extent that they are neither well-documented nor publicised.
To take up performing arts or 'lesser' fields such as music or dance is seen as a niche market with little or no hope of making it big. As a result, the perverted traditions of engineering and finance have been rigidly inculcated in us drones, too straight to even contemplate variations in our future.
Even parents discourage their children in furthering their interest in these fields. Ditto for sports.
Then along comes Melvyn Tan, who proved that branching into such a 'condemned' field can reap dividends. He, like so many of us, was chasing a dream, a dream few dare to realise and his parents duly supported him. He was a first, a man who dare to take a different and uncertain route and found success along the way.
Even better, he had the courage to return to face the courts, aware of a potential jail term just so his parents could watch his performance in SG.
Instead of being given critical acclaim, he was crucified by locals over an admin mistake, which is arguably the fault of both sides, not Melvyn's alone. Teo Chee Hean did no favours by lending weight to the public outcry by saying he favoured jailing defaulters after the judgement was delivered.
Why are our own ministers so biased and one-sided simply because a person defaulted on NS? He left at the age of 12 to pursue his dreams and not 18, the ripe age for enlistment. And given the choice of career over national service, surely such a untenable position becomes unenviable and understood?
He made a choice. We as a people may not have agreed with it. But we should respect his position and difficulty before jumping on the 'flame-him' bandwagon. -
agreed, esp the part in red. Thats why i respect and like this guy so much, even tho i only learnt of him thru this incident. One does not have to listen to classical music to be cultured. One just has to respect people whom deserved to be respected.Originally posted by BillyBong:The psychological aftermath of our government's intentions has left us in a quagmire.
After all the years of developing 'HUMAN RESOURCE' as Singapore's sole marketable product, the arts and cultural sectors have taken a huge knock. To the extent that they are neither well-documented nor publicised.
To take up performing arts or 'lesser' fields such as music or dance is seen as a niche market with little or no hope of making it big. As a result, the perverted traditions of engineering and finance have been rigidly inculcated in us drones, too straight to even contemplate variations in our future.
Even parents discourage their children in furthering their interest in these fields. Ditto for sports.
Then along comes Melvyn Tan, who proved that branching into such a 'condemned' field can reap dividends. He, like so many of us, was chasing a dream, a dream few dare to realise and his parents duly supported him. He was a first, a man who dare to take a different and uncertain route and found success along the way.
Even better, he had the courage to return to face the courts, aware of a potential jail term just so his parents could watch his performance in SG.
Instead of being given critical acclaim, he was crucified by locals over an admin mistake, which is arguably the fault of both sides, not Melvyn's alone. Teo Chee Hean did no favours by lending weight to the public outcry by saying he favoured jailing defaulters after the judgement was delivered.
Why are our own ministers so biased and one-sided simply because a person defaulted on NS? He left at the age of 12 to pursue his dreams and not 18, the ripe age for enlistment. And given the choice of career over national service, surely such a untenable position becomes unenviable and understood?
He made a choice. We as a people may not have agreed with it. But we should respect his position and difficulty before jumping on the 'flame-him' bandwagon. -
I've already said what this sort of attitude is. say too many times sound very naggy, so no need to say it again.Originally posted by meleagent:The sun will continue to rise, people will still shit and have sex even after Melvin Tay has left the country.
As for his contributions to our arts scene, in what capacity will he contribute? As a British citizen? How will that benefit us? How is that different from just engaging a foreign musician.
Good riddance that he has left this country. He won't be missed
Its funny who gets the last laugh and gets to say "I told u" in the end tho.
time to sleep. Gd Night u amusing little thingies. -
actually all parties have merits in their opinions.
just let it be. he is leaving anyway. -
i have to wonder about him tho. Why want to come back and help singapore's art scene, esp if he's a UK citizen? It would be no big trouble meeting his parents in JB anyways. Sometimes I feel people like him are too kind. No point saving those who do not wish to be saved, who do not deserve to be saved anyway.Originally posted by dragg:actually all parties have merits in their opinions.
just let it be. he is leaving anyway.
but anyways time for me to sleep. once again, nighty night, all u amusing little thingies. -
Here's a question, maybe you or anyone else familar with the subject can enlighten me. Is a 2 year "interruption" really detrimental to the development of a classical musician? I ask this because I know absolutely zip about classica music. If that is so perhaps special arrangements can be made for this group of people, like what they currently do for atheletes like soccer players?Originally posted by HENG@:Anyways it seems people keep comparing a career in classical music with other careers, which seems very unfair, because u don't get the same constraints, opportunities or lack of, in a more normal and mudane career. Maybe u think its not fair that he had some rare talents, but seriously u people would rather rare talents be wasted or lost? I do get the distinct impression that jealousy or envy plays a huge factor in your feelings here. -
why do you keep thinking that whatever he is doing, he is doing it not for his own selfish reasons, but for others? i am cynical, because i dont support him.Originally posted by HENG@:i have to wonder about him tho. Why want to come back and help singapore's art scene, esp if he's a UK citizen? It would be no big trouble meeting his parents in JB anyways. Sometimes I feel people like him are too kind. No point saving those who do not wish to be saved, who do not deserve to be saved anyway.
but anyways time for me to sleep. once again, nighty night, all u amusing little thingies.
frankly, only he has the answer. -
lets see. Ok imagine. U are 18 and they offer u a chance to play at the Royal Albert Hall in London, as a relative unknown, and u know that this will catapult u into fame amongst the classical music world. the only problem is, this performance is only scheduled for next summer, when BBC holds their prestegious Proms concerts all thru summer. Of course by then u should have graduated already, and should be back home in Singapore to serve your NS. Serving your NS and then going back to do a performance is an impossiblity, since after 2 years, if u're an unknown, then people will forget u and u will never get that launch into stardom within the classical music world u so desperately wish for. As a result, u decide, with a heavy heart, to follow your dreams, to listen to your heart.Originally posted by av98m:Here's a question, maybe you or anyone else familar with the subject can enlighten me. Is a 2 year "interruption" really detrimental to the development of a classical musician? I ask this because I know absolutely zip about classica music. If that is so perhaps special arrangements can be made for this group of people, like what they currently do for atheletes like soccer players?
I hope this helps u understand why he did what he did.
Anyways if such arrangements can be made for our hopeless soccer players who cannot achieve anything much, I don't see why not for people with talents in other fields. -
why do u want to believe he only has selfish reasons?Originally posted by dragg:why do you keep thinking that whatever he is doing, he is doing it not for his own selfish reasons, but for others? i am cynical, because i dont support him.
frankly, only he has the answer.
would someone with selfish reasons risk returning to a potential jail sentence? Do bear in mind when he decided to return home, he DIDN'T know for sure he won't get a jail sentence. Not someone with selfish reasons would risk, as far as I can see, especially not for little or no gain. Do u think he need to come home to perform to make money? He earns more performing overseas. He don't have to travel to Singapore itself to see his parents. he can meet them in JB. He dun have to volunteer to help the arts and culture scene in singapore. He can probably get more by promoting them elsewhere too. His decisions in this matter certainly don't strike me as being selfish reasons.
The only thing u can call "selfish" is perhaps his decision to follow his dream, but thats the problem with singaporeans. Too many people don't have dreams or follow them. If following your personal dream is being selfish, then I'm happy to admit im selfish. I am an individual, i am not a clone, a robot or a cog in a machine, to be engineered to fit the machine we call society. The problem with singapore is that there is too little respect for an individual's needs and rights and too much emphasis on society and nation. Worse still, there are many ways a nation could benefit, but people only choose to see certain ways because they have been so socially conditioned to view other forms of contribution as non-contribution. Its totally sad. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Come on people , he wouldn't have come back to risk a jail term. I am not privy to the going ons behind the scene, but i can hazard a guess that the conditons for his return and subsequent punishment would have already been discussed. Given the nature of our kangaroo courts, i would think that he would have already known about his punishment even before setting foot in Singapore
The psychological aftermath of our government's intentions has left us in a quagmire.
After all the years of developing 'HUMAN RESOURCE' as Singapore's sole marketable product, the arts and cultural sectors have taken a huge knock. To the extent that they are neither well-documented nor publicised.
To take up performing arts or 'lesser' fields such as music or dance is seen as a niche market with little or no hope of making it big. As a result, the perverted traditions of engineering and finance have been rigidly inculcated in us drones, too straight to even contemplate variations in our future.
Even parents discourage their children in furthering their interest in these fields. Ditto for sports.
Then along comes Melvyn Tan, who proved that branching into such a 'condemned' field can reap dividends. He, like so many of us, was chasing a dream, a dream few dare to realise and his parents duly supported him. He was a first, a man who dare to take a different and uncertain route and found success along the way.
Even better, he had the courage to return to face the courts, aware of a potential jail term just so his parents could watch his performance in SG.
Instead of being given critical acclaim, he was crucified by locals over an admin mistake, which is arguably the fault of both sides, not Melvyn's alone. Teo Chee Hean did no favours by lending weight to the public outcry by saying he favoured jailing defaulters after the judgement was delivered.
Why are our own ministers so biased and one-sided simply because a person defaulted on NS? He left at the age of 12 to pursue his dreams and not 18, the ripe age for enlistment. And given the choice of career over national service, surely such a untenable position becomes unenviable and understood?
He made a choice. We as a people may not have agreed with it. but we should respect his position and difficulty before jumping on the 'flame-him' bandwagon.
So stop potraying him as the prodigal son returning to bring us salvation. -
i dont have an answer to it. but i am still cynical. he neednt come back, then why did he after all these years?Originally posted by HENG@:why do u want to believe he only has selfish reasons?
would someone with selfish reasons risk returning to a potential jail sentence? Do bear in mind when he decided to return home, he DIDN'T know for sure he won't get a jail sentence. Not someone with selfish reasons would risk, as far as I can see, especially not for little or no gain. Do u think he need to come home to perform to make money? He earns more performing overseas. He don't have to travel to Singapore itself to see his parents. he can meet them in JB. He dun have to volunteer to help the arts and culture scene in singapore. He can probably get more by promoting them elsewhere too. His decisions in this matter certainly don't strike me as being selfish reasons.
The only thing u can call "selfish" is perhaps his decision to follow his dream, but thats the problem with singaporeans. Too many people don't have dreams or follow them. If following your personal dream is being selfish, then I'm happy to admit im selfish. I am an individual, i am not a clone, a robot or a cog in a machine, to be engineered to fit the machine we call society. The problem with singapore is that there is too little respect for an individual's needs and rights and too much emphasis on society and nation. Worse still, there are many ways a nation could benefit, but people only choose to see certain ways because they have been so socially conditioned to view other forms of contribution as non-contribution. Its totally sad.
and do you really believed he walk right into singapore risking a jail term without checking with the relevant authorities beforehand? is he that stupid? -
Um where in the report does it say that he's leaving Singapore?
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Agree, it is not Tan who is wrong. I really dont give a rats ass about him. It is the quality of judgment of the people we entrust to run our country which is at question. These guys are not using their logic at all.Originally posted by HENG@:I suppose that depends on how u look at it. The way Singapore is bleeding true talent and keeping only the people who sing to their tune, no wonder the whole country is going down the tubes. -
true, a lot of white horses and wayang ppl during NS. But at least they are IN NS. Dont think I will protest too much if Tan is made to served the 2 year stint and can book out half day everyday.Originally posted by HENG@:well honestly, i think singaporeans like to kick up a big fuss over nothing. There are probably lots of white horses who have gotten away with more, including manslaughter or murder(those of u who know, will know exactly what n who im talking about). But these things don't make the paper so nobody kicks up a big fuss. Just so happens his case made the papers so everyone feel they must make a big hoo ha over his case, which in my opinion, was really quite fairly judged in the courts for once. Why don't u people go make noise over something really worthwhile? Like whitehorses who get away with manslaughter/murder while they're serving their NS?